Doctor Who

[jenocyde]

Would an ENTP care?

Obviously yes. I happen to respect Jeffster very much.

According to your own twisted logic, Fe = sympathy.

The question is why you went and changed that paragraph in the first place? You took a nasty paragraph and made it even nastier. I see that you are trying to start trouble, as you do with a lot of other people on the forum. Why you keep trying to make this personal is beyond me.

This is all very amusing.

 

[Aleksei]

According to your own twisted logic, Fe = sympathy.

Ok I'll bite. How does Fe not equal sympathy?

 

[jenocyde]

Ok I'll bite. How does Fe not equal sympathy?

No need to bite.

I want to clarify that I was being sarcastic when I gave the impression that I interjected due to sympathy, if that was lost on you.

Because Fe is group oriented and Fi is individually oriented. Fi users express sympathy whereas Fe users express empathy.

The difference between sympathy vs empathy: sympathy is the same word as compassion. Sympathy comes from "sum pathos" meaning "with pain", compassion "con pati" is the same thing. Most Fi users will express the fact that they feel someone's pain with them when they see suffering.

Most Fe users will express empathy, which is the understanding and concern that someone is suffering but does not necessarily mean that they actually feel the pain. Empathy is a late English translation of the German word "Einfühlung", meaning "understanding". I felt empathetic and thought what was said was unnecessary but I wasn't personally hurt by it.

Also, when you stated that Fi represented values, you weren't wrong but you were using an incorrect comparison. Fi is concerned with personal values whereas Fe is concerned with ethics, as a whole, for society. What's good for society (Fe), rather than what is good for me or what would be true to myself (Fi).

 

[Aleksei]

Because Fe is group oriented and Fi is individually oriented. Fi users express sympathy whereas Fe users express empathy.

Definition fail. Sympathy can derive from empathy or from a sense of morality, but sympathy itself is a part of the definition of Fe (albeit far stronger in higher Fe users). Fi users express principles, which can often take the form of moral ones or sympathy itself - but are NOT necessarily these.

The difference between sympathy vs empathy: sympathy is the same word as compassion. Sympathy comes from "sum pathos" meaning "with pain", compassion "con pati" is the same thing. Most Fi users will express the fact that they feel someone's pain with them when they see suffering.

That often is the case, but it's not necessarily so, nor is it part of any definition of Fi. An unhealthy Fi user could easily be a selfish prick, or place value on something anathema to sympathy - for example, nihilism or revenge.

Also, when you stated that Fi represented values, you weren't wrong but you were using an incorrect comparison. Fi is concerned with personal values whereas Fe is concerned with ethics, as a whole, for society. What's good for society (Fe), rather than what is good for me or what would be true to myself (Fi).

That's... exactly what I just said. Thanks for summarizing my argument.

 

[jenocyde]

Definition fail. Sympathy can derive from empathy or from a sense of morality, but sympathy itself is a part of the definition of Fe (albeit far stronger in higher Fe users). Fi users express principles, which can often take the form of moral ones or sympathy itself - but are NOT necessarily these.

It is not a "definition fail" - you are not understanding the concept. Fi and Fe are essentially the same, but one function is turned inwards and one is outwards. The inward is personal values, the outward is group ethics. This is a very simple concept.

Exactly where is sympathy part of the definition of the Fe function? Please cite your sources.

That often is the case, but it's not necessarily so, nor is it part of any definition of Fi. An unhealthy Fi user could easily be a selfish prick, or place value on something anathema to sympathy - for example, nihilism or revenge.

I said most Fi users express sympathy and I never claimed it was part of the definition. How's that for comprehension fail?

And yes, I see quite clearly how someone with Fi can be a prick, and that also is not rooted in the definition of Fi. People are obviously made up of multiple functions and various experiences.

That's... exactly what I just said. Thanks for summarizing my argument.

That is not what you said:

, your argument had the problem that it ignores Ten's basic motivation: Fe symathy rather than Fi values)

You compared values to sympathy, which is an incorrect comparison similar to apples and oranges. Sympathy vs empathy is one thing, values vs ethics is quite another. Sympathy and values are incomparable.


And furthermore, instead of saying cheap things like "definition fail", I suggest you do more research into what you are speaking about. If you would like to read a comprehensive post on the definitions of sympathy vs empathy, citing multiple sources across many fields:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/632794-post2.html

 

[chihuahuasrluv]

It is not a "definition fail" - you are not understanding the concept. Fi and Fe are essentially the same, but one function is turned inwards and one is outwards. The inward is personal values, the outward is group ethics. This is a very simple concept.

Exactly where is sympathy part of the definition of the Fe function? Please cite your sources.



I said most Fi users express sympathy and I never claimed it was part of the definition. How's that for comprehension fail?

And yes, I see quite clearly how someone with Fi can be a prick, and that also is not rooted in the definition of Fi. People are obviously made up of multiple functions and various experiences.



That is not what you said.



You compared values to sympathy, which is an incorrect comparison similar to apples and oranges. Sympathy vs empathy is one thing, values vs ethics is quite another. Sympathy and values are incomparable.

Your beating a dead horse , you know. He will never admit he's sometimes wrong and will just fluster you more and he always gets away with his immaturity.
It would be cute if he didn't take it too far but he does and I bet I'm not the only one who is tired of going through pages and pages of people arguing with him and feeding his immaturity just to see opinions on types.

Please people stop giving this rabid dog a bone. He bites hard and gives you rabies. :steam:

 

[jenocyde]

Your beating a dead horse , you know. He will never admit he's sometimes wrong and will just fluster you more and he always gets away with his immaturity.
It would be cute if he didn't take it too far but he does and I bet I'm not the only one who is tired of going through pages and pages of people arguing with him and feeding his immaturity just to see opinions on types.

Please people stop giving this rabid dog a bone. He bites hard and gives you rabies. :steam:

I don't get flustered or agitated. To me, he's just some young uneducated kid wasting time online in the safety behind the screen. I know he would never have the balls to speak to me like that to my face, he doesn't have that sort of strength. I don't care about him or anything he says and I have been quick to move on from discussions where it turns personal. However, I do love to share information and will answer any sincere question that I am asked. Even if he won't take anything from it, it may open a fruitful conversation with another person. I posted thoughts that I thought were relevant to the thread.

Because someone is abrasive doesn't mean that they scare me. It takes a lot more than immature postering to rattle me. I've been here for a year and a half and have over 6000 posts under my belt. He's not chasing me away any time soon.

But I completely understand and respect your point. I've seen him troll many threads in his short time here. I know that it won't last forever. He'll get banned if he keeps it up. And no one will care. There will just be another troll to take his place.

 

[compulsiverambler]

ENTPs can plan, but not in the long term, not in the way Seven does. Ne Ti is a far too mentally disorganized process combination to allow it.

No one goes around using just two of these cognitive processes all day unless they're severely brain damaged, probably not even then.

Planning requires sufficient working memory and attentional capacity. People who can't plan very well (when they try to, which is all Ps are less inclined to do than Js) in the absence of mental retardation have working memory and/or attention regulation problems that interfere with the ability to build up and hold sequences in mind, neither of which are covered by any of the definitions of the 'cognitive functions' discussed here.

People of any MB type can have these problems, they'll just be more devastating to people the stronger their desire to plan ahead is (the more they prefer Judging).

Unfortunately a lot of the popular online type questionnaires ask questions that will label people as Perceivers not just, for example, if they don't care very much about being late to appointments, but also if it drives them crazy to be late and they just can't fully foresee, estimate the time needed for and work out the best order for the tasks involved in order to pull off getting to places on time, often to an extent that's clinically significant.

 

[infjwatching]

For world domination?

personally, i like it when others think i can't plan.

feeds right into my plan.

 

[Aleksei]

It is not a "definition fail" - you are not understanding the concept. Fi and Fe are essentially the same, but one function is turned inwards and one is outwards. The inward is personal values, the outward is group ethics. This is a very simple concept.

Exactly where is sympathy part of the definition of the Fe function? Please cite your sources.

Extraverted Feeling

The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.

The bolded part is what necessarily leads to sympathy. Fe is bound to the feelings of others, and creates a compulsion to take care of others. Ten has this compulsion to be the hero, and no internal values beyond that.

You compared values to sympathy, which is an incorrect comparison similar to apples and oranges. Sympathy vs empathy is one thing, values vs ethics is quite another. Sympathy and values are incomparable.

First off -- sympathy and empathy are not antonyms, they cannot be directly compared to each other any more than sympathy and values can. Second, what I meant to say (I do apologize for not saying so clearly enough -- didn't realize I had to s-p-e-l-l everything out for you ) is that the only dimension to Ten's Feeling is a messianic drive to help everyone and preserve the sanctity of human life. He is not driven by any values, just a caretaker impulse. I do agree that typing him ENTP is counterintuitive on letter-based analysis alone -- he is Feeling as fuck, and every Doctor incarnation has strong Ti (even ones with types that aren't technically supposed to have any). However, it is quite obvious to anyone who knows what Fe is that Ten is Fe, in sharp contrast to the Fi-on-crack Nine.

And speaking of Nine, I'm watching Dalek right now -- Bloody fucking shit where the hell do people get that he's ENTP? Yes he's not cuddly wuddly and shit, but Fi does not necessarily mean . The guy is emotionally charged as all hell. He's Fi to the Nth degree. ENFP (Possibly even ESFP).

Man Nine is awesome.

 

[Aleksei]

Companions:

Amy- ENFP
Rory- ISFJ
River Song- ENTJ
Adelaide Brooke- ESTJ
Lady Christina de Souza- ISTP
Jackson Lake- ENFP
Rosita Farisi- ESFJ
Wilfred- ENFP
Donna- ESFJ
Martha- INFJ
Captain Jack- ESFP
Adam- INTJ
Mickey- ISFP
Rose- ESFP

 

[Aleksei]

After rewatching the Davros arc in Series 4 (as well as the Christmas Invasion, which I didn't get all the way through the first time), I actually think you guys could be right; Ten might be ENFP. "I can't die because I'm too pretty" is definite Fi at work. He's still got oodles of Ti, all Doctors do, but the question is whether his Ti is stronger than his Fi. I think Fi is stronger (making him ENFP), but he's certainly ENxP in any case.

Still; Jen, babe, you still need some serious work on your Fi-Fe distinction. Oh, and Nine is most certainly ENFP as well, which means Eleven is likely the first ever NTP incarnation.

 

[Aleksei]

Full profiles:

Eleven- ENTP, 7w6 sp/sx, SLUE|I|, Promoter (Artisan)
Ten- ENFP, 2w3 sx/so, SLU|A|I, Teacher (Idyllic)
Nine- ENFP, 1w9 sx/sp, S|L|UEI, Field Marshal (Rational)

Amy- ENFP, 7w8 sx/sp, SLUE|I|, Champion (Idyllic)
Rory- ISFJ, 2w1 so/sx, RCO|A|I, Protector (Guardian)
River- ENTJ, 8w7 sp/sx, S|C|OEI, Field Marshal (Rational)

Adelaide- ESTJ, 6w7 so/sp, SC|O|EN, Administrator (Rational)
Lady Christina- ISTP, 7w8 sp/sx, RCU|E|I, Craftsman (Artisan)
Jackson- ENFP, 2w3 so/sx, SLU|A|I, Champion (Idyllic)
Rosita- ESFJ, 2w1 so/sp, SLOA|N|, Provider (Guardian)

Wilfred- ENFP, 6w5 sp/sx, RCUA|I|, Inventor (Rational)
Donna- ESFJ, 1w2 so/sx, SL|O|AI, Administrator (Guardian)
Martha- INFJ, 2w1 sx/so, RCOA|I|, Counselor (Idyllic)
Captain Jack- ESFP, 7w8 sx/sp, |S|CUEI, Promoter (Artisan)
Adam- INTJ, 5w4 sp/so, RCOE|I|, Architect (Rational)
Mickey- ISFP, 9w1 sx/so, |R|LUAI, Artist (Artisan)
Rose- ESFP, 7w6 sx/sp, SC|U|AI, Performer (Artisan)

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

I don't see any N in Amy at all. Why is she N? She seems ESXP.

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

Oh, and BTW, I don't get the whole "The Doctor always has INTP functions" thing. I mean, ENTPs also have all those functions in a similar order, and since he's almost always an extrovert with a lot of Ne, wouldn't ENTP be more like him?

 

[Verfremdungseffekt]

Shh. Don't feed the troll.

 

[Aleksei]

Cute.

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

Yo! Aleksei! My questions? What of them?

 

[Aleksei]

Socionics types:

One: ISTj-Ti
Two: ENFj-Ni
Three: ISTp-Si
Four: ENFj-Fe
Five: INFj-Fi
Six: ESFp-Se
Seven: ENTj-Ni
Eight: ENFj-Ni
Nine: ESFp-Fi
Ten: ENFp-Fi
Eleven: ENFj-Ni

Overall archetype: ISFj-Fi. The lonely god, filled with intense moral fervor and a desire to help others, crushing evil throughout the galaxy.

Yo! Aleksei! My questions? What of them?

Sorry. Well, I've actually been having second thoughts about that. The Doctor is actually more of a Wonka-ish archetype, and the more consistent theme of his personality is an Fi bent. I think he's more of an ENFP architect, rather than INTP.

By the way, I think you yourself are probably ENTP rather than INTP.

 

[Mr. Sherlock Holmes]

By the way, I think you yourself are probably ENTP rather than INTP.

I respectfully disagree.