Why are ISTPs and INTJs confused so much?

[InvisibleJim]

And anyway, I don't know how you can say at once that (1) Si does not function as a database and (2) that Si involves comparing immediate sensory information to memory. There can't very well be a comparison if there was not detailed information stored (like a database) from previous experience, right?

It is just a simple distinction.

1) Your mind is your memory store.

2) Si is a cognitive process that scans that memory store very rapidly and compares sensory information being received against that within your mind.

Si is not a database, it is not memory, it is a cognitive function. It looks at and compares sensory information against one though which is your memories.

It doesn't tell you if it is right or wrong however! It is introverted perception by functionality, just like Ni.

I took my quotes from cognitiveprocesses.com

 

[Orangey]

It is just a simple distinction.

1) Your mind is your memory store.

2) Si is a cognitive process that scans that memory store very rapidly and compares sensory information being received against that within your mind.

Si is not a database, it is not memory, it is a cognitive function. It looks at and compares sensory information against one though which is your memories.

You're being overly literal. To say that Si stores information in database fashion is not to say that there is an actual, physical part of the brain called Si that stores stuff. It just means that Si plays a part in both the process of gathering and storing information AND comparing new information to memorized experience.

From Lenore Thompson:

Introverted Sensation gives us the will to accumulate information--names, dates, numbers, statistics, references, guidelines, and so forth--related to the things that matter to us. ... Such facts are highly selective. ... They're part of our self-experience. They define the specific nature of our passions and interests. They become our basis for taking in new data.

In other words, if one is oriented by introverted sensation, one is compelled to pay attention to and remember a specific type of information - names, dates, numbers, statistics, etc. Details. Of course, the specific topics one chooses to focus their Si on are dependent on the interests and disposition of the user, but the form stays the same.

It doesn't tell you if it is right or wrong however! It is introverted perception by functionality, just like Ni.

Again, who is talking about right and wrong?

I took my quotes from cognitiveprocesses.com

So did I.

 

[redacted]

Because when people think someone is smart, introverted, and Thinking, they figure if INTP doesn't fit, INTJ is the only other option.

 

[skylights]

Sounds like a small logical fallacy, but I appreciate and value Orangey's and your contributions. Internally when I read this my inner Ni goes into 'rageguy' mode.

i think others have pointed out what i meant about the database - i understand how any Perceiving function is not the exact same as a database -

but anyway, yeah, you're right, it is a logical fallacy - or at least, it would be, if i was trying for a logical statement.

in jungspeak it was more of a Fi call than anything to do with logic - it's got a lot to do with having read orangey's (sorry orangey, i'm kinda using you as an example, i hope you don't mind) posts before and them seeming pretty knowledgeable, and just the realization of how personally fine-tuned all these functions can seem to be, especially introverted ones.

you also really didn't have to mock my language usage.

 

[GetOffMyBiscuits]

Because when people think someone is smart, introverted, and Thinking, they figure if INTP doesn't fit, INTJ is the only other option.

so true lol

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

IDK. I'm pretty detail oriented. For instance, I was taking apart a centrifugal clutch and took it apart the exact way I found it. I put it back together the exact way I took it off and stopped. Something wasn't right. The back of it had various plates that fit together and while it looked right it just didn't feel right. I got the manual and looked at how it was supposed to be and it was wrong and I corrected it. Both people who took that clutch apart and back together did so without catching that error. I can get lost in those kinds of details.

My brother is an INTJ and I have two good friends who are. I think there's a big difference and some small similarities in ISTP/INTJ's.

My brother and my friends are more "high strung". They worry a lot more about things than I do and they like to know what to expect from people and situations beforehand. I'm more like, "We'll figure it out when we get there".

The friends I know are a lot more generally pessimistic about life as a general philosophy. If someone hurts them it takes a lot longer for them to let go of it. They're much more sensitive than I am about stuff like that. I try to let that stuff roll off my back and move on pretty quickly.

We are similar in that we can take control of a situation and keep things from getting derailed. We both have presence of mind to have a clear direction that we want to attain and we are decisive about enacting it.

 

[InvisibleJim]

you also really didn't have to mock my language usage.

I didn't have to but you did not have to mock my opinion. I'm sure you'll get over it just as I did. Fair is fair regardless of how bitter it tastes.

The logical fallacy you applied was an Appeal to Authority.

What you stated is 'As they are ISTP they know more because it is their type'. This is cherry picking the statement based upon authority without asking for the basis of that position.

What I did was elude to the logical reasons I believe my own argument; because MBTI is a system based upon cognitive functions. Hopefully doing so may improve everyone's understanding of the issues at hand and to deal with those in a consistent and equitable basis and perhaps I will learn something of value also.

If we change what exactly a 'cognitive function is' then we start to see odd behaviours in the system that are not consistent because of the base assumptions. 'Help I'm an ENFP but I like maths, I have Fi I shouldn't like maths' is a silly argument; although most ENFPs may dislike maths they are perfectly capable of it just like anyone else because all that cognitive functions are is a way of interfacing with the world and do not lead to individual actions, likes or dislikes. I hope you see the conundrum and my concern.

 

[skylights]

I didn't have to but you did not have to mock my opinion. I'm sure you'll get over it just as I did. Fair is fair regardless of how bitter it tastes.

The logical fallacy you applied was an Appeal to Authority.

What you stated is 'As they are ISTP they know more because it is their type'. This is cherry picking the statement based upon authority without asking for the basis of that position.

What I did was elude to the logical reasons I believe my own argument; because MBTI is a system based upon cognitive functions. Hopefully doing so may improve everyone's understanding of the issues at hand and to deal with those in a consistent and equitable basis and perhaps I will learn something of value also.

If we change what exactly a 'cognitive function is' then we start to see odd behaviours in the system that are not consistent because of the base assumptions. 'Help I'm an ENFP but I like maths, I have Fi I shouldn't like maths' is a silly argument; although most ENFPs may dislike maths they are perfectly capable of it just like anyone else because all that cognitive functions are is a way of interfacing with the world and do not lead to individual actions, likes or dislikes. I hope you see the conundrum and my concern.

i didn't mean to mock your opinion, i was just disagreeing i am sorry if it came off that way though, it wasn't my intention.

i also completely agree with your last paragraph.

but i do understand the logical fallacy - i did agree it's a fallacy in my last post - it's not that i don't recognize it. i understand that just because someone is a doctor or any other claimed authority position, with proof or not, does not automatically mean their medical diagnosis, or any other claim, is any more correct than another.

my point was more along the lines of you were quick to shoot down someone's opinion when they are possibly in a better position to understand the subtleties and nuances of the subject, provided they've typed themselves correctly, etc. your quick dismissal sounded presumptuous to me especially given that i didn't really agree with your points. so what i meant to address, which i suppose didn't come off clearly, was that i found it frustrating that someone gave their own account and experience of something that really is rather personal, being an introverted function, and you addressed as if it had no value or truth in it - which, if they're not an ISTP, might be true - but if they are, then it matters, because it's their personal experience of that function.

so, i guess what came off logically an "appeal to authority" fallacy was me trying to point out that opinions shouldn't be dismissed if they're pertinent, and that pertinence depends on type, hence me citing type. it wasn't just a blind "she claims she's an ISTP so she must be right."

if that makes sense

i probably ought to be more clear about my wording. i actually appreciate your pointing this out, because i probably do this more than i realize and i'm sure it gets misunderstood.

 

[freeeekyyy]

The ISTP has a big fat Ti at the front end, as with INTP. This is introverted judgement driving decision making. They like concise detail in their thought process.

It's not the Ti alone that gives INTPs a strong orientation towards detail. It's Ti combined with Si.

 

[Robopop]

I think the combination of Se+Ti can mirror Te in certain situations, like ESTPs are often confused with ENTJs too. I think compared to ISTPs and INTJs, INTPs can appear to be a bit "softer", probably because of Ne and they have a more easygoing interaction style(behind the scences, informative) compared to ISTPs and INTJs(chart the course, directive).

 

[Orangey]

I think the combination of Se+Ti can mirror Te in certain situations, like ESTPs are often confused with ENTJs too. I think compared to ISTPs and INTJs, INTPs can appear to be a bit "softer", probably because of Ne and they have a more easygoing interaction style(behind the scences, informative) compared to ISTPs and INTJs(chart the course, directive).

I agree.

 

["?"]

INTJ and ISTP types are actually quite similar as are other types like ENTJ/ESTP, per Linda Berens and Dario Nardi. They’re theory is the dominant and auxiliary functions are similar:

Ti and Ni are often accompanied by a sense of detachment and disconnection. With both there tends to be comfort with complexity. The difference is that when we are engaging in Ti, we usually have a clear sense of the principles or models something is judged against, whereas with Ni, an impressionistic image forms in the mind.

Se and Te are often used when there is a focus on facts and an empirical approach. Keep in mind that Se is a perceptive process and may consist of data gathering with questions, whereas Te is a judging process in which the purpose of question is to establish logic.

As a result, the ISTP can mistype as INTJ as in this description:[

When does an ISTP look like an INTP or INTJ?

What would make the difference?

Of all the Artisan types, ISTPs most look like and most often identify with the Rational temperament, often reporting preferences for INTP or for INTJ on assessments.
Interaction Styles. ISTPs have a Chart-the-Course™ Interaction Style, which goes with a desire to enter a situation with some sort of course of action in mind. It doesn’t have to be a detailed plan and ISTPs often seem planful as they analyze a situation in anticipation of what is likely to happen. ISTPs and INTJs share this Interaction Style and so would look alike in that way.

The Chart-the-Courseâ„¢ style often seems like the Strategic intelligence that is an important aspect of the Rational temperament pattern and ISTPs often relate to the description of the Rational temperament over the Artisan temperament. This is especially true when the Artisan description focuses too much on freedom and spontaneity.

Temperament. Differentiating Artisan versus Rational is key. Artisan desire for skillful performance often leads ISTPs to identify with the Rational’s core need for competence. In presenting the two temperaments, it helps to contrast the difference between skillful performance as a value and competence as a core need. For the
Artisan skill often comes from the drive to action and they hate being clumsy or awkward. They get involved in an activity, get caught up in the pure joy of doing, and thus become skilled. Rationals need to feel competent and often want a measure of competence before they even do something. To practice or “do” means failure and that often can strike at the core need.

Roles. ISTPs, INTPs, and INTJs share a desire to act independently and tend to take pragmatic roles with others, seeking autonomy. This makes the differentiation harder to discover.

Language. It helps to listen for the concrete language of the ISTP, which often creates a picture in the listener’s mind. Such language is likely to be full of specific examples and stories. INTP and INTJ language tends to reference abstract concepts with a focus on precision. ISTPs often get at the essence of something rather succinctly, whereas, INTPs and INTJ go into more depth.

Interest. ISTPs are more likely to zero in on someone’s motives than INTPs or INTJs (unless in the business of understanding people!)

Similar Cognitive Dynamics. ISTPs and INTPs have the same Leading Role process (dominant) of introverted Thinking and are likely to approach situations with an analytical perspective and like to know the principles of how things work. The difference shows up in their Supporting Role processes (auxiliary). An INTP described his preferred work style as exploring problems and sub-problems (Ne), while his ISTP colleague described a tactical trouble shooting approach with a focus on getting the task done (Se).

Also, ISTP’s frequently engage their Relief Role process (tertiary) of introverted iNtuiting and enjoy looking at whole systems and patterns and getting a sense of what will happen in the future.

This information can be located at bestfittype.com as most already know. Sorry if this was already stated.

 

[Giggly]

They are confused when they are cold, unfeeling and super independent.