[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[Fidelia]

i feel this too.

it's less about back-me-up-on-this and more about acknowledge that i had a valuable something to contribute and that you want to hear it, even if you disagree with it.

otherwise sometimes it becomes hard to see a reason to keep contributing.



or Si. all these Fe/Fi threads are clusterfucks. but i'm learning a lot, so...

who says a clusterfuck always has to be bad? sometimes painful and chaotic and confusing. but also fun and revealing

Yeah, I agree that all the Fe/Fi threads involve some conflict. I think usually though as long as it doesn't turn into name calling, it gets more untangled as it gets talked through and all parties come away with something useful.

Okay, useful piece of information - so Fi users would prefer for us to take the time to say, "Thanks for taking the time to write that and explain. I know it's taxing for you to do so" and then go on with where the disagreement part is? When the discussion stretches out into many pages though, doesn't it start seeming kind of fake to keep saying that? I did say that quite a bit towards the beginning and kind of left off after awhile. Maybe that was a mistake, or maybe even back at the start there would have been a better way to have phrased it. Can you give an example in Fi language of what would be helpful to hear?

 

[Jaguar]

who says a clusterfuck always has to be bad? sometimes painful and chaotic and confusing. but also fun and revealing

I just had a vision of a box of candy. How about if we create a new type of candy called: Clusterfucks?

 

[Ivy]

This thread doesn't seem clusterfucky to me really. Conflict isn't always negative. So far it has been pretty honest, productive (at times) conflict.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Wanna borrow my Ni? I knew that's where things were headed from the moment the thread was posted.

But think of the progress ... 300 posts til it happened. That's got to be a record, no?

 

[Tiltyred]

i feel this too.

it's less about back-me-up-on-this and more about acknowledge that i had a valuable something to contribute and that you want to hear it, even if you disagree with it.

otherwise sometimes it becomes hard to see a reason to keep contributing.

I thought the reason to keep contributing is to get to the truth. It did not occur to me that the reason to continue would be because it feels good to you, and if it doesn't feel good anymore, you quit. Because you do get reinforcement even if someone doesn't outright say "Thank you for your valuable contribution which I very much want to hear, please continue." You get response. But you're saying response is not enough, you need personal validation.

This is like PB saying she feels like Fidelia is frustrated with her but accuses Fidelia of hiding things because F does not say in words that she is frustrated or having negativity in any form. I don't understand why it's dishonest or it's seen to be hiding things when you (I guess I mean "you infps") say yourself that you know it. If you know it, then obviously it's being expressed, isn't it? If you know it, it's not being hidden.

 

[Fidelia]

Maybe it's akin to the need to hear "I love you" expressed, even if the knowledge is there that someone loves you.

I think I understand what skylights is getting at, but I'm not totally sure what it would look like in practical terms.

 

[Orangey]

This thread doesn't seem clusterfucky to me really.

Really? 'Cause the discussion seems to have degraded to "how nicer to talk to PeaceBaby so that we can get past this bitchfest."

 

[PeaceBaby]

^ thanks for your productive contribution Orangey. Any more words of wisdom you can impart?

 

[KDude]

Pointless proposition, but worth an attempt:

Lets move on

 

[Ivy]

Yeah, I agree that all the Fe/Fi threads involve some conflict. I think usually though as long as it doesn't turn into name calling, it gets more untangled as it gets talked through and all parties come away with something useful.

Okay, useful piece of information - so Fi users would prefer for us to take the time to say, "Thanks for taking the time to write that and explain. I know it's taxing for you to do so" and then go on with where the disagreement part is? When the discussion stretches out into many pages though, doesn't it start seeming kind of fake to keep saying that? I did say that quite a bit towards the beginning and kind of left off after awhile. Maybe that was a mistake, or maybe even back at the start there would have been a better way to have phrased it. Can you give an example in Fi language of what would be helpful to hear?

It doesn't seem necessary to me and that's one place where I don't feel like the Fi voices in this thread are universal Fi voices. For example, I get the impression that other Fi users in here believe that the only way to be fully honest is by total emotional disclosure. I have never felt like my Fi "feeling tones" need to be explained or shown to everyone to be valid.

Something I read tonight while surfing around on Wikipedia struck me as applicable to this thread:

Jung theorized that the dominant function acts alone in its preferred world: exterior for the extraverts, and interior for the introverts. The remaining three functions, he suggested, operate together in the opposite world. If the dominant cognitive function is introverted, the other functions are extraverted, and vice versa. The MBTI Manual summarizes references in Jung's work to the balance in psychological type as follows: "There are several references in Jung's writing to the three remaining functions having an opposite attitudinal character. For example, in writing about introverts with thinking dominant...Jung commented that the counterbalancing functions have an extraverted character."

This makes complete sense to me and clears up a lot of my confusion about my type. My interior space is decorated entirely with Fi. The way I engage with the outside world is Ne/Si/Te. I actually feel fairly protective of my insides- my values, my gut reactions to things, my "compass"- and I process that data to share it with the outside world using my counterbalancing functions. Not all of it needs to be shared. What IS shared should be fully authentic, but what happens on the inside belongs to me and me alone and I don't owe it to anyone to blurp it out to the exterior.

Is any of this making any sense at all?

 

[Tiltyred]

@Orangey
Further incisive commentary from the peanut gallery is welcomed and appreciated.

(PB, how'm I doin'? Is this more like it?)

 

[Seymour]

So, this is more on the nature of an aside, but one thing I associate with Fi is that once I've broken through with fellow Fi-er, I no longer have to worry much about offending them. Sometimes I even explicitly re-affirm that by saying, "I like and trust you and I'll always do my best to give you the benefit of a doubt. If I feel offended, I'll tell you. Until then, it's all good." It's they respond similarly, then things are pretty much golden.

It's always great when I can reach that point with someone, because at that point I get to relax and enjoy the friendship rather than constantly fearing being judged and found wanting—a real (if sometimes irrational) fear of mine! I find it harder to reach that point with my NFJ friends, because I feel like I'm always being re-evaluated and compared to standards of behavior (including their model of my previous behavior). I did reach the point with one of my two best friends from college (an INFJ) when he said, "You know, I finally realized that you remain my friend and even though you drop out of touch for extended periods of time, you always come back. I used to think that meant something was wrong... but I know for you nothing has changed." That was a big break-through with him, and frankly showed a lot of understanding and flexibility from his side, since he was the one choosing to meet me where I was, rather than vice versa.

In a way it can be frustrating with other FJs, because I want reach that point of being relaxed and open around those that I like. With non Fi-users, sometimes the gambit of laying one's emotional cards on the table can be ineffective at best. In those cases, it can cause the other party to become more guarded, since they may struggle both with the inappropriateness of your feelings and the feeling morass your directness engendered in them. Heck, they may even feel their own emotional reactions are inappropriate at that point, in which case getting a genuine response has a snowball's chance in hell.

So, that may not be what's happening in this thread, but Fi emotional honesty is sometimes a way of reaching out to the other person, hoping the other person will respond in kind. The hope is that one can then see the other's true self, and continue forward with the perspective of all the cards being on the table. It's not necessarily a conflict-free approach, but I think it's one that Fi-ers tend to reach for without realizing it may seem emo and unnatural to people of other persuasions. I suspect PeaceBaby is doing so intentionally, since that's how you really meet the interior world of an NFP. (I'm sure she can correct me if I'm wrong.)

So, I don't know if other NFPs and NFJs agree with that (or SFs, for that matter), but I thought I'd throw it out there.

EDIT: I agree with Ivy, too... I sure don't feel the need to be entirely open unless I'm looking for a deeper friendship with someone. I sure don't express all my inner feelings in a work environment, for example. I tend to come across as "aloof" or "quiet but nice" to those who don't know me well... it's not all emo-central being an Fi-dom.

EDIT 2: I also agree that good intent doesn't excuse everything. But for me that's a truth learned with difficulty, not an easy or natural one. Good intent still counts for a fair amount in my book, while bad intent earns my disdain pretty easily. Plus, I tend to assume everyone has good intent until proven otherwise.

 

[Tiltyred]

I'm tired; I'll come back. I've got a bunch of things to try to verbalize in response to your post, Seymour.

Nice talking with you all!

 

[PeaceBaby]

If you know it, then obviously it's being expressed, isn't it? If you know it, it's not being hidden.

The person feels it inside, but their words aren't a reflection of that. That's what I mean, by sensing it. That the emotions are "hidden".

It doesn't seem necessary to me and that's one place where I don't feel like the Fi voices in this thread are universal Fi voices. For example, I get the impression that other Fi users in here believe that the only way to be fully honest is by total emotional disclosure. I have never felt like my Fi "feeling tones" need to be explained or shown to everyone to be valid.

@bold: I agree with you; most of the time I don't fully disclose either. My inner world is for me and me alone. But, I am being way more open here than to most people IRL, and exposing that inner world for the purposes of understanding.

This makes complete sense to me and clears up a lot of my confusion about my type. My interior space is decorated entirely with Fi. The way I engage with the outside world is Ne/Si/Te.

Seymour knows a great deal about this - I believe that according to Jung you would engage the outside world using Ne/Se/Te.

I actually feel fairly protective of my insides- my values, my gut reactions to things, my "compass"- and I process that data to share it with the outside world using my counterbalancing functions. Not all of it needs to be shared. What IS shared should be fully authentic, but what happens on the inside belongs to me and me alone and I don't owe it to anyone to blurp it out to the exterior.

Is any of this making any sense at all?

Yes, it is. I agree with you; thanks too for your thoughts Ivy.

So, that may not be what's happening in this thread, but Fi emotional honesty is sometimes a way of reaching out to the other person, hoping the other person will respond in kind. The hope is that one can then see the other's true self, and continue forward with the perspective of all the cards being on the table. It's not necessarily a conflict-free approach, but I think it's one that Fi-ers tend to reach for without realizing it may seem emo and unnatural to people of other persuasions. I suspect PeaceBaby is doing so intentionally, since that's how you really meet the interior world an NFP. (I'm sure she can correct me if I'm wrong.)

That's a pretty accurate assessment. I know it's challenging for many people to follow. I appreciate your interpretation.

 

[Ivy]

Seymour knows a great deal about this - I believe that according to Jung you would engage the outside world using Ne/Se/Te.

Looks that way. I have to say that I don't relate so much to Se though. Either way it's pretty theoretical- I can see tertiary Si as a recursive interior function behind Fi just as easily. What's most clear to me is that Fi, to me, is interior, right up front, and mostly ineffable. I'm not able to expose it for educational purposes. It's not that I'm not willing.

 

[PeaceBaby]

You're saying it's so integrated into your being, how can it be isolated and thus described, something that's almost intangible and beyond words. I can't disagree with that; I really find it hard to express myself. It's why I resort to a lot of metaphors and examples to try to evoke what I imagine would be a similar response in others.

 

[Orangey]

^ thanks for your productive contribution Orangey. Any more words of wisdom you can impart?

Oh the irony.

 

[Ivy]

You're saying it's so integrated into your being, how can it be isolated and thus described, something that's almost intangible and beyond words. I can't disagree with that; I really find it hard to express myself. It's why I resort to a lot of metaphors and examples to try to evoke what I imagine would be a similar response in others.

Not exactly "how can it be," because that implies that I doubt your descriptions of your own Fi. I really don't; I'm aware that other people are better equipped to describe the ineffable than I am. What I'm trying to say is that I may not be able to describe my Fi interior fully, but I can tell you that your descriptions of yours do not resonate with me. So I wonder, if different Fi users experience Fi so differently, whether any sweeping statements about "what Fi is" will be at all accurate in a general sense.

 

[skylights]

I just had a vision of a box of candy. How about if we create a new type of candy called: Clusterfucks?

excellent idea!!

it's kind of gross though in that it made me think of Cockroach Cluster from harry potter

It doesn't seem necessary to me and that's one place where I don't feel like the Fi voices in this thread are universal Fi voices. For example, I get the impression that other Fi users in here believe that the only way to be fully honest is by total emotional disclosure. I have never felt like my Fi "feeling tones" need to be explained or shown to everyone to be valid.

sorry, if i'm one of those voices! i don't think it's possible to have total emotional disclosure, nor do i think my Feeling tones (i like that word for it) have to be explained to be valid, but at the same time me giving as much relevant info as i can from my perspective would be how i go about trying to be honest. i try to go as deep as i can to get at the truth. but sometimes that involves a lot of digging on my part. and since i'm ENFP it usually helps me to hear my thoughts written out, so i can sort through them logically.

Okay, useful piece of information - so Fi users would prefer for us to take the time to say, "Thanks for taking the time to write that and explain. I know it's taxing for you to do so" and then go on with where the disagreement part is? When the discussion stretches out into many pages though, doesn't it start seeming kind of fake to keep saying that? I did say that quite a bit towards the beginning and kind of left off after awhile. Maybe that was a mistake, or maybe even back at the start there would have been a better way to have phrased it. Can you give an example in Fi language of what would be helpful to hear?

hm. maybe i worded that poorly

i don't think it's necessary to say every time, especially not on the internet. i guess to me it's based on when really emotional language is present, or if something is especially long or complex, and that signals when it's useful to affirm the other person if they're feeling on shaky ground or if they just exposed something that really is important to them. and it's based on what i'm going to say too. if i'm going to agree with them, there's no need. but if i'm going to throw a bunch of questions at their post that are or might seem like i'm questioning their judgment, then i would affirm the value of their contributing and therefore of themself as a person.

i guess what i mean to say is that Fi takes care of the inner person - it's protective of identity. if my identity is tied into a post, then it needs to be treated like i'm putting myself on the line. because i usually am, all the time. many NFPs will open up all the way for the sake of truth, but that leaves us really vulnerable too. to tell you the full truth of what we feel is to expose our weaknesses. so we have this idea of affirmation because we know how much a person is putting at risk.

I thought the reason to keep contributing is to get to the truth. It did not occur to me that the reason to continue would be because it feels good to you, and if it doesn't feel good anymore, you quit. Because you do get reinforcement even if someone doesn't outright say "Thank you for your valuable contribution which I very much want to hear, please continue." You get response. But you're saying response is not enough, you need personal validation.

actually, yeah... i kind of see the truth and feeling good as wrapped up into one. that's what Fi does - it connects emotion with value judgment. so when things are proceeding in a direction you believe is right, you feel good (not necessarily in a placid, content way - you could be kind of fired up, but feel like you're making progress), and when things are headed in a direction that's wrong - subjectively, since Fi is a subjective function - you feel poorly about it. but if you feel bad and then someone says, hey, i know we're both pissed off, but i want to hear what you have to say, then you have a reason to endure those strong negative emotions, and to keep putting your personal core self out there.

just theorizing, but INFJs with strong Ti probably don't have that inseparable truth-and-feeling-and-identity connection, so it probably seems kind of dumb to have to reassure the other person's feelings when we're searching after the truth. the search for truth itself should be in and of itself compelling, and it's not as tied to personal identity. but, at least for my own Fi, truth and good and identity are inseparable.

and i mean, i'm not saying we should all tell the other person thank you every time they make a post. it's just that if they've laid themself out there for the sake of understanding, we should try to be aware of that and treat it carefully.

So, that may not be what's happening in this thread, but Fi emotional honesty is sometimes a way of reaching out to the other person, hoping the other person will respond in kind. The hope is that one can then see the other's true self, and continue forward with the perspective of all the cards being on the table.

everything else you said too. i totally feel the way you explained in your post.

with Fi people you can just have this understanding and everything is okay even if you piss them off, because there's this deep trust bond. i feel with many Fe people (note here that IRL i LOVE lots of Fe doms and i don't mean this to have any reflection of what's going on on the boards) that to some extent i'm always walking on glass. like to a certain extent they're just lying in wait for me to mess up and then shut me out. like i can never just be okay being stupid flawed-but-working-on-it me in their eyes. my mom (ESFJ) and i have gotten past that point because i know she loves me no matter what. and equally she knows i love and appreciate her no matter what stupid shitty things i might say when i'm angry. but with my close Fe dom friends... it's just really hard sometimes.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Not exactly "how can it be," because that implies that I doubt your descriptions of your own Fi. I really don't; I'm aware that other people are better equipped to describe the ineffable than I am. What I'm trying to say is that I may not be able to describe my Fi interior fully, but I can tell you that your descriptions of yours do not resonate with me. So I wonder, if different Fi users experience Fi so differently, whether any sweeping statements about "what Fi is" will be at all accurate in a general sense.

Thanks for that; I do fully expect us to be unique, and as an INFP I would imagine we have enough in common to recognize each other though. Does that make sense?

FWIW, you seem a lot like one of my best friends, an ISFP. She says what you do, that her interior world is a full, private reality, and she expresses that through her art, her writing and her new passion, permaculture. I feel more Ni than Ne from you, but that's a big aside here.

I do think Fi is hard to describe, and not well-received in the best of circumstances, and thus we take great pains to protect what is essentially our being, our essence. Who we are.

i guess what i mean to say is that Fi takes care of the inner person - it's protective of identity. if my identity is tied into a post, then it needs to be treated like i'm putting myself on the line. because i usually am, all the time. many NFPs will open up all the way for the sake of truth, but that leaves us really vulnerable too. to tell you the full truth of what we feel is to expose our weaknesses. so we have this idea of affirmation because we know how much a person is putting at risk.

actually, yeah... i kind of see the truth and feeling good as wrapped up into one. that's what Fi does - it connects emotion with value judgment. so when things are proceeding in a direction you believe is right, you feel good (not necessarily in a placid, content way - you could be kind of fired up, but feel like you're making progress), and when things are headed in a direction that's wrong - subjectively, since Fi is a subjective function - you feel poorly about it. but if you feel bad and then someone says, hey, i know we're both pissed off, but i want to hear what you have to say, then you have a reason to endure those strong negative emotions, and to keep putting your personal core self out there.

That's all very well-expressed.