[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Ti-Si INTP comes off as ISTJ?

[Orangey]

I feel VERY different from ISTJs I know, INTPs are far more similar function wise to ENTPs, ISTPs, and INFPs than they are to ISTJs.
Come on, we're lighter than that(when healthy).

I feel very different from ISTJs I know as well, but I've been told that I come off as one on more than one occasion. This could be because I'm actually not INTP, of course, but that's a different issue. I'm just pointing out that how one feels inside is not necessarily how others percieve them.

Also, comparing the functional similarities of the types you mentioned to INTPs is all well and good, but remember that I said "Ti-Si INTPs," meaning that the Ti and Si are emphasized while the Ne is de-emphasized. This means that the types most functionally similar would be ones with prominent Ti and Si and little Ne (ISTP, ISTJ, ISFJ, or an Fi-Si INFP.)

Also, what do you mean by "lighter?" From what I have seen and read, INTPs are fairly sober and serious. Much like ISTJs, though definitely not as severe.

 

[INTPness]

So either the INTP is suppressing their Ne because they're in a socially uncomfortable setting, or they're "unhealthy," and said suppression makes them look similar to an ISTJ. Otherwise they look pretty different, yes? So I guess an INTP would not really look ISTJ consistently for sustained periods of time, unless they only appeared to the viewer in superficial social contexts in which they were uncomfortable.

I'm going with the bolded part. "Superficial social contexts" actually fits better than what I said earlier about being "uncomfortable". In most social contexts, I know that people probably won't relate to my whacky Ne. So, I keep it under wraps a bit. Sure, I throw out some witty, humorous quips here and there if I see an opportunity, but with most people I have trouble connecting with them via Ne. So, I just come off as this quiet, respectful, reserved guy who stays in the background and seems very structured and responsible, possibly even "square".

If the conversation allows me to use my Ne to a larger extent, the people quickly see that I'm much more "off the wall", full of crazy ideas, willing to talk about hypotheticals, and very much "outside" of the box that they had probably begun to put me in. I'm very unpredictable, whereas, ISTJ's are very predictable IMO.

So, I don't always have to be "uncomfortable" or "unhealthy" to supress my Ne. If I'm around a group of STJ's and I start throwing out hypotheticals and theories, they're just going to look at me like: It's just not going to work in that situation. So, I supress it and just take the shape of an ISTJ-type (INTP's are known for mirroring the behavior of those around us anyways) for a couple of hours until I just can't take it anymore. Then I call my ENFP or ENTP friends and it's party time. A big Ne party:

It's just a matter of who I'm hanging out with.

 

[Robopop]

Also, what do you mean by "lighter?" From what I have seen and read, INTPs are fairly sober and serious. Much like ISTJs, though definitely not as severe.

I guess by lighter I meant more easygoing lifestyle wise than ISTJs, though still pensive. Most introverts in generally will probably look serious and sober outwardly.

 

[INTPness]

I feel very different from ISTJs I know as well, but I've been told that I come off as one on more than one occasion. This could be because I'm actually not INTP, of course, but that's a different issue. I'm just pointing out that how one feels inside is not necessarily how others percieve them.

That's just it. We are very different from ISTJ's and we know it. But, others perceive us as being like ISTJ's *if we are not fully exposing Ne*.

Aren't you a very different person when you're using Ne than when you're not? When I'm using Ne, it's usually pretty fun. Lots of humor, lots of wit, lots of laughing, lots of silliness. When I'm not using Ne, then I seem like I have an "accountant" personality. Serious, fairly reserved, etc.

 

[Robopop]

That's just it. We are very different from ISTJ's and we know it. But, others perceive us as being like ISTJ's *if we are not fully exposing Ne*.

Aren't you a very different person when you're using Ne than when you're not? When I'm using Ne, it's usually pretty fun. Lots of humor, lots of wit, lots of laughing, lots of silliness. When I'm not using Ne, then I seem like I have an "accountant" personality. Serious, fairly reserved, etc.

This is good, I've always thought I had all these different sides to my personality, like there is the silly, zany, goofy me, the serious, careful, thoughtful me, the super pissed off me, and most of the time, the cool, chill, laidback quiet me who observes the world from a distance.

 

[Orangey]

I'm going with the bolded part. "Superficial social contexts" actually fits better than what I said earlier about being "uncomfortable". In most social contexts, I know that people probably won't relate to my whacky Ne. So, I keep it under wraps a bit. Sure, I throw out some witty, humorous quips here and there if I see an opportunity, but with most people I have trouble connecting with them via Ne. So, I just come off as this quiet, respectful, reserved guy who stays in the background and seems very structured and responsible, possibly even "square".

If the conversation allows me to use my Ne to a larger extent, the people quickly see that I'm much more "off the wall", full of crazy ideas, willing to talk about hypotheticals, and very much "outside" of the box that they had probably begun to put me in. I'm very unpredictable, whereas, ISTJ's are very predictable IMO.

So, I don't always have to be "uncomfortable" or "unhealthy" to supress my Ne. If I'm around a group of STJ's and I start throwing out hypotheticals and theories, they're just going to look at me like: It's just not going to work in that situation. So, I supress it and just take the shape of an ISTJ-type (INTP's are known for mirroring the behavior of those around us anyways) for a couple of hours until I just can't take it anymore. Then I call my ENFP or ENTP friends and it's party time. A big Ne party:

It's just a matter of who I'm hanging out with.

I guess by lighter I meant more easygoing lifestyle wise than ISTJs, though still pensive. Most introverts in generally will probably look serious and sober outwardly.

That's just it. We are very different from ISTJ's and we know it. But, others perceive us as being like ISTJ's *if we are not fully exposing Ne*.

Aren't you a very different person when you're using Ne than when you're not? When I'm using Ne, it's usually pretty fun. Lots of humor, lots of wit, lots of laughing, lots of silliness. When I'm not using Ne, then I seem like I have an "accountant" personality. Serious, fairly reserved, etc.

This all makes sense, especially what you've said, INTPness. Though, in response to the bolded, Robopop, I wouldn't necessarily say that all introverts remind me of ISTJs, even if they do appear serious and sober. I meant INTPs in particular because of their logical aura and their Si (if, for whatever reason, it is played up in lieu of Ne.) That's why I asked about INTPs specifically, because if I thought that the ISTJ-appearing traits I'm thinking of were merely signs of introversion or something else general like that, then I wouldn't have asked this question.

 

[slowriot]

I feel VERY different from ISTJs I know, INTPs are far more similar function wise to ENTPs, ISTPs, and INFPs than they are to ISTJs.
Come on, we're lighter than that(when healthy).

Agreed, if you think you are that stiff maybe you are unhealthy and is not really an INTP. I can relate to exhibiting rigid, fact-oriented and impersonal traits on a superficial level when you meet me, but once beyond the superficial I cant see it at all. Im rather open with friends and they quickly understand that Im not someone that is as I seem. They know I go by a different beat than most people rather quickly.


Plus a side question where do you get that its ISTJ and not ISTP that an unhealthy INTP exhibits? And according to this idea wouldnt that mean that an unhealthy ESTJ would exhibit intp traits? Which is weirder than I can agree on

Edit: If we take the example with an unhealthy estj it would make more sense that they exhibited ENTJ traits. ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi) compared to ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi)

 

[Craft]

I have never been and will probably never will "appear like an ISTJ". (Except for the serious strict-looking face.) My Ne is my air, without it I can't think or speak. It's removing the label of "curious(on possibilities)"(which I'm usually labeled). Si tires me. I do on occasion think about the past but that's mainly to do "some Ne" on it.

No, it's quite difficult for me to see myself appearing Si Te. Te, I can, as I do it a lot with Ti; I organize things well. But organization comes with my own selection of ways in organizing things. I actually enjoy my possibilities than my maths.Ne Ti I can live, Si Fe I cannot.

Information is a big deal. I might've over exaggerated though.

It would be interesting yet very hard to relate to an Si'ish INTP. I have known a few ISTJ's and our differences can be simplified into clumsy weird curious versus professional responsible.

 

[INTPness]

I don't get all the "unhealthy" talk. If I'm around a bunch of SJ's who are talking about concrete facts and asking questions about a project that requires concrete answers (i.e., it's not a brainstorming session or a "think tank" type situation), then Ne doesn't play a huge role in that situation. Or if I'm small-talking with someone about the weather or the fact that their car broke down over the weekend and they had to mow their lawn in the heat (blah, blah, blah, ad finitum), it doesn't do any good for me to start hypothesizing and talking about this new, crazy idea I have for a business, etc. So, I just don't use it in those particular situations. And I come off "fairly stiff". Big deal. By coming off "stiff", the conversation ends sooner and I get to get away from the small talk sooner. That's a good thing most of the time!

I don't see why that's unhealthy. It's a calculated decision to not use Ne when the situation doesn't call for it. Therefore, their "perception" of me is fairly ISTJ-ish, but in reality I'm not ISTJ-ish. I'm a full on INTP who, like someone said, marches to the beat of my own drum for the most part.

 

[INTPness]

For the record, I am not saying that INTP's are like ISTJ's.

I'm only saying that (a) in the relative absence of Ne, (b) we can seem similar to them (c) in the eyes of others.

 

[Craft]

I don't get all the "unhealthy" talk. If I'm around a bunch of SJ's who are talking about concrete facts and asking questions about a project that requires concrete answers (i.e., it's not a brainstorming session or a "think tank" type situation), then Ne doesn't play a huge role in that situation. Or if I'm small-talking with someone about the weather or the fact that their car broke down over the weekend and they had to mow their lawn in the heat (blah, blah, blah, ad finitum), it doesn't do any good for me to start hypothesizing and talking about this new, crazy idea I have for a business, etc. So, I just don't use it in those particular situations. And I come off "fairly stiff". Big deal. By coming off "stiff", the conversation ends sooner and I get to get away from the small talk sooner. That's a good thing most of the time!

I don't see why that's unhealthy. It's a calculated decision to not use Ne when the situation doesn't call for it. Therefore, their "perception" of me is fairly ISTJ-ish, but in reality I'm not ISTJ-ish. I'm a full on INTP who, like someone said, marches to the beat of my own drum for the most part.

I agree. It's not "unhealthy", it's actually healthier to develop your lower functions. An INTP that can easily temporarily look like an ISFJ is major development.

 

[Orangey]

Plus a side question where do you get that its ISTJ and not ISTP that an unhealthy INTP exhibits? And according to this idea wouldnt that mean that an unhealthy ESTJ would exhibit intp traits? Which is weirder than I can agree on

ISTPs and INTPs share dominant Ti and inferior Fe. Since both healthy and unhealthy INTPs make good use of Ti and relatively little use of Fe, it doesn't make sense to say that an unhealthy INTP would present more like an ISTP.

The health of the INTP has more to do with the use of Ne and Si. Specifically, an unhealthy INTP will use more Si and less Ne (according to Lenore Thompson's tertiary temptation idea.) Considering that the ISTJ has dominant Si and inferior Ne, it does make sense to say that an unhealthy INTP would resemble an ISTJ more than they would an ISTP. The functions that change with the health level of the INTP are more closely related to those of the ISTJ than the ISTP.

I don't see why using that logic would make an unhealthy ESTJ appear as an INTP. If the dominant and the tertiary are the functions that get over-relied upon, and the auxiliary is the one that gets pushed away, then for an ESTJ it would be a Te-Ne loop. I don't really know what that looks like, but applying the logic I've been using (tertiary of original type becomes dominant, dominant of original type switches orientation and assumes second position), they would look most similar to an ENTP, not an INTP.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

If the dominant and the tertiary are the functions that get over-relied upon, and the auxiliary is the one that gets pushed away, then for an ESTJ it would be a Te-Ne loop. I don't really know what that looks like...

I think it's difficult to think of Te to come before Ne. Te first, implies that you are changing your surrounding and then creating ideas from that. It means you are reducing the natural state of things before you come up with ideas, which may greatly alter the ideas that you make.

 

[Orangey]

I think it's difficult to think of Te to come before Ne. Te first, implies that you are changing your surrounding and then creating ideas from that. It means you are reducing the natural state of things before you come up with ideas, which may greatly alter the ideas that you make.

Well I didn't say it wasn't weird. But that seems to be the logic of tertiary temptation. That's not to say that the idea is necessarily accurate.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Just reasoning out loud I suppose.

 

[Robopop]

This does bring up the interesting idea that certain combinations of functions(say SeTi ESTP) can look like another function(Te). ENTJs and ESTPs share somethings in common, like the take charge interaction style, same with INTJs and ISTPs,chart the course.

 

[slowriot]

okay just to make it understandable as I see it this is how I would characterize the unhealthy loops/shadows what you want to call them. If anyone has info that goes against this please direct me to it.

I will bold the functions that will be exhibited as a bad loop and compare them to the traits they may mistakenly be taken as which will be in italic. (fbecause this is time comsuming I will only make the Sensor related type)

ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne) = ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne) = ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne)

ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti) = ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti)

ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi) = ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi)

ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe) = INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te) = INFP (Fi Ne Si Te)

ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni) = ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni)

ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni) = ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni)

INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) = ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe)

INFP (Fi Ne Si Te) = ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te)

ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) = ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si)

ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si) = ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si)

INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se) = INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se)

INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) = INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se)

ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi) = ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi)

ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti) = ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti)

The idea being that for the introvert he will only develope introverted functions and therefore appear to be using the introverted tertiary function as an extroverted auxiliary function of another type. For an extrovert that only developes extroverted function and specifically tertiary extroverted function, it will appear to really look like an introverted auxiliary function of another type.

If we where to go by the idea that unhealthy INTPs exhibit ISTJ trait we would have to turn around on the order of the first dominant function in the unhealthy type and that really do not make any sense to me. So that what one is using as an unhealthy tertiary function is actually dominant in your proposed unhealthy exhibited type.

With focus on the intuitives here would be the idea you are proposing.

INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) = ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

INFP (Fi Ne Si Te) = ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne)

ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si) = ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi)

ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) = ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti)

ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi) = ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni)

ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti) = ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni)

INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) = INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se) = INFP (Fi Ne Si Te)

Look at the INTJ and INFJ plus look at INTP and INFP they dont match!! Thats confusing. (eventhough I can see some idea in unhealthy ENFPs looking like ENTJs)

 

[slowriot]

I don't get all the "unhealthy" talk. If I'm around a bunch of SJ's who are talking about concrete facts and asking questions about a project that requires concrete answers (i.e., it's not a brainstorming session or a "think tank" type situation), then Ne doesn't play a huge role in that situation. Or if I'm small-talking with someone about the weather or the fact that their car broke down over the weekend and they had to mow their lawn in the heat (blah, blah, blah, ad finitum), it doesn't do any good for me to start hypothesizing and talking about this new, crazy idea I have for a business, etc. So, I just don't use it in those particular situations. And I come off "fairly stiff". Big deal. By coming off "stiff", the conversation ends sooner and I get to get away from the small talk sooner. That's a good thing most of the time!

I don't see why that's unhealthy. It's a calculated decision to not use Ne when the situation doesn't call for it. Therefore, their "perception" of me is fairly ISTJ-ish, but in reality I'm not ISTJ-ish. I'm a full on INTP who, like someone said, marches to the beat of my own drum for the most part.

Thats not what this is about you are totally not getting the point. And what you are talking about is differentiation as Jung would probably call it. And to put it in layman terms a word like adaption comes to mind (eventhough Id get beaten for saying that out loud with jungians around). We all do that, but that dont mean we take on a different personality which is what we are talking about here. Communication requires to tone down your own personality or talk in a way so that other types will understand you. That is not the same as being unhealthy and not having developed - like for INTPs - Ne for instance.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

okay just to make it understandable as I see it this is how I would characterize the unhealthy loops/shadows what you want to call them. If anyone has info that goes against this please direct me to it.

I will bold the functions that will be exhibited as a bad loop and compare them to the traits they may mistakenly be taken as which will be in italic. (fbecause this is time comsuming I will only make the Sensor related type)

ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne) = ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne) = ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne)

ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti) = ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti)

ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi) = ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi)

ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe) = INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te) = INFP (Fi Ne Si Te)

ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni) = ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni)

ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni) = ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni)

INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) = ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe)

INFP (Fi Ne Si Te) = ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te)

ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) = ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si)

ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si) = ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si)

INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se) = INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se)

INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) = INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se)

ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi) = ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi)

ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti) = ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti)

The idea being that for the introvert he will only develope introverted functions and therefore appear to be using the introverted tertiary function as an extroverted auxiliary function of another type. For an extrovert that only developes extroverted function and specifically tertiary extroverted function, it will appear to really look like an introverted auxiliary function of another type.

If we where to go by the idea that unhealthy INTPs exhibit ESTJ trait we would have to turn around on the order of the first dominant function in the unhealthy type and that really do not make any sense to me. So that what one is using as an unhealthy tertiary function is actually dominant in your proposed unhealthy exhibited type.

With focus on the intuitives here would be the idea you are proposing.

INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) = ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

INFP (Fi Ne Si Te) = ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne)

ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si) = ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi)

ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) = ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti)

ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi) = ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si)

ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti) = ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si)

INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) = INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se) = INFP (Fi Ne Si Te)

Look at the INTJ and INFJ plus look at INTP and INFP they dont match!! Thats confusing. (eventhough I can see some idea in unhealthy ENFPs looking like ENTJs)

The second pattern is extremely confusing too me. I can't find connections between some of them. The first at least seems correct. I need to check it more later.

 

[slowriot]

ISTPs and INTPs share dominant Ti and inferior Fe. Since both healthy and unhealthy INTPs make good use of Ti and relatively little use of Fe, it doesn't make sense to say that an unhealthy INTP would present more like an ISTP.

The health of the INTP has more to do with the use of Ne and Si. Specifically, an unhealthy INTP will use more Si and less Ne (according to Lenore Thompson's tertiary temptation idea.) Considering that the ISTJ has dominant Si and inferior Ne, it does make sense to say that an unhealthy INTP would resemble an ISTJ more than they would an ISTP. The functions that change with the health level of the INTP are more closely related to those of the ISTJ than the ISTP.

I don't see why using that logic would make an unhealthy ESTJ appear as an INTP. If the dominant and the tertiary are the functions that get over-relied upon, and the auxiliary is the one that gets pushed away, then for an ESTJ it would be a Te-Ne loop. I don't really know what that looks like, but applying the logic I've been using (tertiary of original type becomes dominant, dominant of original type switches orientation and assumes second position), they would look most similar to an ENTP, not an INTP.

interesting but I still think its not a good thought out idea as I tried to describe in the post above. But Ill probably have to read her thoughts to understand what she is saying.

about the estj I can see your point now I was confusing the two ideas. I blame Ne.