Ni v. Si - A Comparative Analysis

[Poki]

If you had more S, you would have noticed some kid's already inside the snowball... what IS that black thing embedded in the front anyhoo?

Yeah, its a aux S, not a dominant S. Noticed it, but didnt think about it being a shoe. Logical after thought says that its not possible as you would have had to build the snowball around him or it would be like trying to drive your car with a boot on it. Plus he would have to be angled towards it if he was engulfed after the fact. Possibly the kid that owns the car that they are trying to run over with the snowball was standing in front trying to push the snowball in the other direction using a 45 degree angle to dissipate some of the force into the ground thus strengthening his position causing him to become engulfed in it instead of knocking him over and rolling over him *it is possible*. Maybe he should have tried placing his back against it to provide more surface area with his legs angled 45 degress to the ground to provide that dissipation along with the surface area needed to not become engulfed. Of course then he may get sandwhiched in half as the point his hips touch the snowball is below the snowbals 45 degree mark which would cause a downward force on him while pushing his upper body foreward causing him to fold in half.

 

[IZthe411]

I think it's Z.

Notice he hasn't been posting, since ...

I think it's the Sensor's reaction to that pesky N who feels that he is mentally superior to all of them.

 

[musttry]

I like your idea...I hope other Si doms answer. You might want to post this link in the SJ forum for them to participate.

Would love to. Not sure how though.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah, its a aux S, not a dominant S. Noticed it, but didnt think about it being a shoe. Logical after thought says that its not possible as you would have had to build the snowball around him or it would be like trying to drive your car with a boot on it. Plus he would have to be angled towards it if he was engulfed after the fact. Possibly the kid that owns the car that they are trying to run over with the snowball was standing in front trying to push the snowball in the other direction using a 45 degree angle to dissipate some of the force into the ground thus strengthening his position causing him to become engulfed in it instead of knocking him over and rolling over him *it is possible*. Maybe he should have tried placing his back against it to provide more surface area with his legs angled 45 degress to the ground to provide that dissipation along with the surface area needed to not become engulfed. Of course then he may get sandwhiched in half as the point his hips touch the snowball is below the snowbals 45 degree mark which would cause a downward force on him while pushing his upper body foreward causing him to fold in half.

You think too much.

(And I never said he was alive either, did I? If he's smothered in a big snowball, why does it matter how he's all folded up?)

Nope, this snowball is just yet another day on the set of Jackass. Those crazy SPs will try anything once!

 

[JocktheMotie]

I think the way Z worded it made it seem like there is an active decision-making proces occurring to evaluate/analyze, which would certainly be more in line with a judging function. However, (and he can correct me if I'm wrong), I think Z was trying to say that Si is the default/automatic placement of ones perceptions into an established, organized framework, while Ni is the default/automatic ongoing restructuring of the framework that molds ones perceptions.

Thus, there's no decisions going on once the data is perceived; that's just automatically how the data gets internalized. Both Pi functions suck in data and fit the data into some internal construct, without consciously weighing the value of different possible constructs according to some outside standards. It's all automatic.

So in that case, both Ni and Si are still seeing/identifying; Si sees/idenfitifies where new perceived data fits in with previously stored data. Ni sees/identifies the different angles by which external information can be interpreted.

Z explained this in a way that made it seem like he was personifying Ni/Si, giving them a mind so to speak, making his assertions appear like there's an active decision-making process complimenting them, but again, I don't know if that's how he meant it.

This makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Poki]

You think too much.

(And I never said he was alive either, did I? If he's smothered in a big snowball, why does it matter how he's all folded up?)

Nope, this snowball is just yet another day on the set of Jackass. Those crazy SPs will try anything once!

That was more like rambling, not much thought involved. IRL I am the person telling someone else to stand at a 45 degree angle knowing whats gonna happen. Then saying, oh you should have put your back against it knowing again whats gonna happen. I dont go quite as far as Jackass, of course if I was on that show *ponders*. *back to reality* my wife would kill me if I went through with my ideas anymore then I do.

 

[nanook]

if you describe Ni and Si in such a way, that Ni is clearly superior, and if your description is inspired by something you have observed in real people, then you are most likely being distracted by stages of development. its generally true for N and S: for example, often they say that S types can't be abstract. but abstraction is a feature of a stage of development. if S types can't abstract by definition, it would imply that N types are really evolved S types, meaning that S and N are not typological dichotomies at all. this could be possible, but i don't think its the case in this universe.

(by definition a type is a "horizontal" form, development is pictured "vertical", a type can maybe transform (rope -> butterfly) but it can't change (butterfly->grasshopper).)

 

[Zarathustra]

I think it's Z.

Notice he hasn't been posting, since ...

Haha, I'm at work.

It's not that convenient to post from my smartphone (but I do it).

I'll be responding when I get home tonight. That'll kinda be my M.O. from now on. Just started working again, about a month ago.

 

[uumlau]

Haha, I'm at work.

It's not that convenient to post from my smartphone (but I do it).

I'll be responding when I get home tonight. That'll kinda be my M.O. from now on. Just started working again, about a month ago.

Uh huh.

Stop dripping snow all over the threads nice hardwood floor.

 

[Lex Talionis]

Lex, while I believe I'm more on your side of this issue than not, I don't think that phrasing is all that useful either. "Same in terms of function" vs. "what they do is the same". Also sloppy language. (Please don't take this as a personal attack and go off topic, cuz it wasn't meant to be.)

My point was that even if their process of drawing information was similar, what they do with that information and how they apply it is much different.

 

[VagrantFarce]

I confess I haven't read a single word of this thread, but that won't stop me from throwing in my 2 cents:

OK, so I'm pretty sure both Si and Ni are about anticipating things before they happen, whereas Ne and Se are about reacting to things while they happen. So both Si and Ni draw on the past, and both Si and Ni predict the future - but they don't share the same focus.

• Introverted Sensation is about physical anticipation - you can "feel" the physical outcome of something before actually experiencing it, because you're drawing from and reliving a rich database of past sensations. You feel sick when looking at a piece of food because the food looks or smells like a bad experience you've had in the past. You haven't actually tasted the food, and other people might think that there's nothing wrong with the food, but you're still convinced that it will be bad for you.
  
  
• Introverted Intuition is about contextual anticipation - you can detach yourself from the meaning of things and think in terms of symbols or archetypes being applied to different contexts. By doing this, you just "know" the outcome of something, because you've subconsciously picked up on patterns and symbols that point to it as an inevitability. You have yet to experience this, because it hasn't happened yet - but still you know, with almost absolute certainty, that it will.

This is probably only a small part of the difference between the two, and I still can't wrap my head around Ni enough to give a genuine description of how its experienced, but it just happened to be something I was thinking about today and I felt like sharing.

 

[teslashock]

My point was that even if their process of drawing information was similar, what they do with that information, and how they apply it is much different.

Actually, your point was that Ni and Si could not be similar at all. Read:

What!? They aren't the same process at all. Either elaborate or stop spouting nonsense.

and

Si is irrevocably different from Ni. They are not similar at all.

and

What do you mean by "no meaningful difference"? They are entirely different; I explained why.

*sniff, sniff*

What is that smell? Why, could that be the subtle stench of humility diffusing into your posts?

 

[Poki]

I tried to use Ni in my posts about the picture. It was all physics/action/theory based on past patterns. It is derived from a strong Se and Ti based on an understanding of how things work physically. I was pretty much predicting the outcome based on patterns, the theories of why are my patterns or Ni. I generally dont go into the detail of physics or the formulas really, just the general knowledge of why things happen and interact. The things the formulas calculate, for example how fast you need to go around an icy bank with out sliding up or down is based on experience as opposed to a formula. It is a very Se based Ni and from experience and adjusting everything in the moment to balance things out.

Dominant Ni is a more Te/Fe based Ni. Much different usage and application. It is used for a purpose as opposed to something to play with.

If you look at INTPs they play with the detail, if you look at ISTPs we play with the patterns.

edit: this is why I can drive an INTJ insane if I want. They use patterns for a goal while I will play with them and completely derail the goal. The goal is understanding and sharing knowledge to accomplish something. With ISTJ I get put in my place as I will do the same thing, but if I hit a topic their Si is really strong in they pretty much kill my pattern because it doesnt fit when you bring in all the detail. The go way deeper with S then my Se does and while my pattern is correct it doesnt fit the situation or topic at hand because of all the detail.

 

[Lex Talionis]

Actually, your point was that Ni and Si could not be similar at all. Read:

*sniff, sniff*

What is that smell? Why, could that be the subtle stench of humility diffusing into your posts?

You are misunderstanding the point I was attemtping to make. I take the blame for paying little attention to my wording, but I stand by what I've typed. In the former, where I asserted that they aren't the same process at all, I was referring to the entire operation overall. In the latter, where I attempted to clarify, I was referring to the different processes within Si and Ni. The complete functions aren't the same at all, unless, like I've already stated, we use your poor criteria for comparison, in which case all functions could be reduced to the level of "similarity" you claim.

I admit that I used "sloppy phrasing," but I wasn't wrong in what I stated. Read the two descriptions I've linked you. How are they the same?

 

[teslashock]

You are misunderstanding the point I was attemtping to make. I take the blame for paying little attention to my wording, but I stand by what I've typed. In the former, where I asserted that they aren't the same process at all, I was referring to the entire operation overall. In the latter, where I attempted to clarify, I was referring to the different processes within Si and Ni. The complete functions aren't the same at all, unless, like I've already stated, we use your poor criteria for comparison, in which case all functions could be reduced to the level of "similarity" you claim.

I admit that I used "sloppy phrasing," but I wasn't wrong in what I stated. Read the two descriptions I've linked you. How are they the same?

I understand what your point was; it was just kind of silly.

With your poor understanding of Ni/Si and the unjust bias you have (had?) towards Ni and against Si, you failed and/or were reluctant to see any similarities between the two (God forbid that your mystical, pure genius, sophisticated Ni is tainted by sharing any qualities with that dirty Si savage ).

Now, with a little coaxing from other posts on the topic, it appears that you've learned a little more about the similarities between Ni/Si, and you are revamping your original assertion, so you don't have to admit fault. It's cute, but I see right through it. What's so terrible about admitting that your eyes have been opened a bit?

And whether or not you deem this a "poor criteria for comparison" is kind of moot. The fact is that both Ni and Si do similar things (in the same way that Ti/Fi, Ne/Se, and Te/Fe do...would you like to hear the similarities that justify those function pairings as well?) in that they both gather external information and fit it with some kind of internal construct.

If we care to fully examine our cognitive processes and how our cognitive processes differ and/or are similar to others', then these sorts of comparisons are not trivial at all (and I'd even go so far as to say that the comparison between lawn-mowers and airplanes is not trivial).

Oh, and the links you pasted to me were nice for a superficial summary of these two functions, but one should hope that after several months on this forum discussing typology, I've read a little more into the functions than those short paragraphs. And if we're going to trade web information regarding the functions, I'd suggest this site:

The Lenore Thomson Exegesis Wiki

 

[teslashock]

OK, so I'm pretty sure both Si and Ni are about anticipating things before they happen, whereas Ne and Se are about reacting to things while they happen. So both Si and Ni draw on the past, and both Si and Ni predict the future - but they don't share the same focus.

+1 for that insightful comparison

Ancipating (ie, expecting) is the keyword here.

 

[Jaguar]

Introverted Sensation is about physical anticipation - you can "feel" the physical outcome of something before actually experiencing it, because you're drawing from and reliving a rich database of past sensations. You feel sick when looking at a piece of food because the food looks or smells like a bad experience you've had in the past. You haven't actually tasted the food, and other people might think that there's nothing wrong with the food, but you're still convinced that it will be bad for you.

The above sounds like some type of obsessive/paranoid disorder, rather than a function.

 

[VagrantFarce]

The above sounds like some type of obsessive/paranoid disorder, rather than a function.

Tbh that's an extreme example that's meant to clarify how Si differs from Ni. When taken to any sort of unhealthy extreme, Introverted Perception is going to illicit very insular, paranoid behaviour.

 

[Jaguar]

Tbh that's an extreme example that's meant to clarify how Si differs from Ni. When taken to any sort of unhealthy extreme, Introverted Perception is going to illicit very insular, paranoid behaviour.

So you consciously chose to create an unhealthy extreme to "enhance" understanding.
I see.

What's next, coffins?

 

[VagrantFarce]

So you consciously chose to create an unhealthy extreme to "enhance" understanding.
I see.

What's next, coffins?

:workout: