Posturing and Machismo

[heart]

I like nerds.

 

[Metamorphosis]

Cockiness, seems like something else entirely. It reminds me of "peacocking," I suppose "showing off" with the aim to impress/intimidate.

It's also important to note that there are certain subcultures that revolve almost entirely around this concept. Typically, when you see people who don't have optimum circumstances growing up, they will tend to congregate in groups based around intimidation/whatever. (goth/rap/biker/etc.)

I forgot your personality type, but I'm thinking it was INTP or something? The thing you have to realize is that there are some types (mine for instance), who's confidence doesn't actually have to be founded in reality. We just make it appear from nowhere and expect to be right.

 

[SillySapienne]

That brings up a point about confidence, cockiness, etc.

For me confidence is proportional to the relative perceived experience I has in a particular context.

If I perceive that I don't have a lot of experience in a particular context, I am not confident.

If I perceive that I have more experience with something than I actually do, the I am overconfident.

Cockiness, seems like something else entirely. It reminds me of "peacocking," I suppose "showing off" with the aim to impress/intimidate.

This has actually been helpful for me. Because, trying to "impress" anyone is something I find annoying also. Unfortunately, it is a necessary part of daily life. Often times, there IS a need to impress to be given the freedoms I am seeking.

Perhaps, my visceral dislike of machismo, is connected to my annoyance at needing to "impress" people.

Anyway, this thread wasn't intended at self-therapy.

Feel free to ramble on yourselves.

[/rambling]

Great post!!!

I can't stand to see men lek!!!! It's just so, well...pathetic.

I'm impressed by men who are thoughtful, honest, and sincere.

 

[ygolo]

It's also important to note that there are certain subcultures that revolve almost entirely around this concept. Typically, when you see people who don't have optimum circumstances growing up, they will tend to congregate in groups based around intimidation/whatever. (goth/rap/biker/etc.)

I forgot your personality type, but I'm thinking it was INTP or something? The thing you have to realize is that there are some types (mine for instance), who's confidence doesn't actually have to be founded in reality. We just make it appear from nowhere and expect to be right.

Interesting. Yes. I believe myself to be an INTP. But I have become quite disillusioned in using the knowledge towards better ends. Anyway...

Do you consider "swagger" or "peacocking" to be essential to forming your confidence?

I understand creating a vision, and sticking to it to bring it into reality. This is something I find quite admirable.

I also understand, that a certain amount of swagger helps in this regard (in recruiting followers, I guess).

Since, you are the first one who hasn't (essentially) agreed with me. I am most interested in understanding your view on this.

Great post!!!

I can't stand to see men lek!!!! It's just so, well...pathetic.

I'm impressed by men who are thoughtful, honest, and sincere.

That brings up another point. Is it possible to be thoughtful, honest and sincere, and still "lek" (I like the mating ritual reference, BTW)?

 

[CzeCze]

Well considering that gender is performative, a lot of the way men and women act is to fill or play with gender expectations. Or that idea that someone is watching them and how 'correct' they are in their gender.

Again, I actually do like cockiness. I like swagger. When it's backed up by something. I don't identify it so much with machismo. Cockiness to me is a little self-conscious but in a tongue-in-cheek, funny kind of way. Machismo takes itself seriously.

It is partly a degree thing.

Too much bragging, and WAY too much bragging, especially when it's very bald faced and coupled with putting down other people is just a turn-off. Period. I don't think this is necessarily a definition of machismo or exclusive to it. Any gender can be guilty of it.

Why do women hate it so or interpret it as insecurity? Well, it's more that it seems like false advertising, plus just an unpleasant demeanor. You also assume if someone is this 'machismo' in the way they present themselves to the world, they will also try to dominate you in the relationship and be too busy puffing themselves up to really be there for you.

I have found in my experience that HEALTHY self-made succesful or accomplished people are actually the opposite -- quite humble actually. Or even downplay their success and wealth, especially as they are aware of how much they have and do not want to be taken advantage of and already get enough positive attention and reinforcement from their actions. They are at ease with people basically and they don't act like they are impressed with themselves.

I think that's a key point too. If even you are surprised at how 'great' you are, it makes others think you don't have a lot going on and are easily impressed.

This isn't to say they never talk about themselves or what they've done, they just don't shove it in your face or pat themselves on the back constantly or at all.

I guess it's similar to snottiness.

People who inherited their wealth and class, especially young people who are pretty ignorant about the 'real world' are snotty because they are out of touch with reality and don't understand the value of what they have.

Also, machismo to me, again implies wanting to dominate the woman in the relationship in an old school way. A lot of women, especially younger women, do not want this.

And that's my rambling reply to you!

 

[Metamorphosis]

Do you consider "swagger" or "peacocking" to be essential to forming your confidence?

There's two ways to look at it. When in the "fake it till you make it" mode, I believe that it does help. However, when it is genuine, it is simply a byproduct of confidence. I didn't realize that I literally swaggered until multiple people pointed it out to me (I know you aren't just literally talking about the way of walking, but it's the easiest example).

I understand creating a vision, and sticking to it to bring it into reality. This is something I find quite admirable.

I'm a big time believer in this, but I think that is just partially becomes it comes naturally to us (it has its downfalls). In my case, I've always had professional confidence. I expected to be obeyed if I felt that I had to take charge. However, I had virtually no social grace until a couple of years ago when I made it a point of focus. The problem is, during this transition period, I'm displaying my professional confidence outwardly without the NF ability to read people, which results in the appearance of cockiness/arrogance, despite the fact that I was uncomfortable around people most of the time.

What I'm getting at, is that it is entirely circumstantial for each indidivual. Sometimes it is a case of overcompensating for social unease. Sometimes it is a case of true, natural confidence. Of course, there are outside influences too, such as your drug dealer reference. When you do certain things on a regular basis, you are forced to adopt a certain mentality. In my case, my extracurricular activities did have an influence on increasing my confidence.

I also understand, that a certain amount of swagger helps in this regard (in recruiting followers, I guess).

True. Every arena has a certain order that must be maintained.

Since, you are the first one who hasn't (essentially) agreed with me. I am most interested in understanding your view on this.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on this either. I do, in fact, hold the same kind of irrational grudges against certain social groups (gangbangers, for instance, despite the fact that I have some Crip friends). Plus, I'm quite amazed at the way you analytically take what I'm saying in stride. I know I have a tendency to come off like I'm attacking unintentionally. It's just my method of discerning truth through discussion.

That brings up another point. Is it possible to be thoughtful, honest and sincere, and still "lek" (I like the mating ritual reference, BTW)?

And what is lek?

 

[ygolo]

And that's my rambling reply to you!

Appreciated.

More rambling from more members please.

 

[ygolo]

There's two ways to look at it. When in the "fake it till you make it" mode, I believe that it does help. However, when it is genuine, it is simply a byproduct of confidence. I didn't realize that I literally swaggered until multiple people pointed it out to me (I know you aren't just literally talking about the way of walking, but it's the easiest example).

I've heard the phrase "fake it till you make it." But don't actually know waht that means.

Is it that we fake confidence till it becomes real?

It's not something I've tried. Like I mentioned before. My confidence comes with my own perceived experience, but I can see some value in what you are saying.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on this either. I do, in fact, hold the same kind of irrational grudges against certain social groups (gangbangers, for instance, despite the fact that I have some Crip friends). Plus, I'm quite amazed at the way you analytically take what I'm saying in stride. I know I have a tendency to come off like I'm attacking unintentionally. It's just my method of discerning truth through discussion.



And what is lek?

I didn't find your tone attacking at all. Also, "lek" is essentially "peacock" but more generally applied to the animal kingdom.

A lek is a gathering of males, of certain animal species, for the purposes of competitive mating display. Leks assemble before and during the breeding season, on a daily basis. ...

From wikipedia.

 

[miss fortune]

confidence is SEXY False confidence is a turn off though

I like a guy who knows who he is and isn't afraid of it (and isn't afraid of me! ) If his posturing and machismo is an expression of false confidence it's a total turn off to me I've been involved and hurt by guys who were lacking in the are of confidence before and I've come to realize that there's nothing I can do to make them more confident :sad:

If he just happens to walk with a swagger, like beer and enjoy yelling at the tv during baseball games though- that's perfectly fine! one of my favorite men I've ever been involved with was a manly man (with the exception of the fact that he cried more than I do! ) He actually was genuinely comfortable with himself though- which is the real point of attraction

I guess what I'm saying is that confidence is a turn on- if a guy who is confident happens to amble in with a swagger that's perfectly fine, and if he doesn't that's fine as well!

 

[Grayscale]

ygolo, you're over thinking something that is quite simple...

masculinity is just another fact of life--like, the sky is blue. those who understand that get used to the idea and live it out in a matter-of-fact manner. you don't need to tell people that the sky is blue or even bother arguing about it. just learn to accept your ability and inability and let the chips fall where they will.

machismo on the other hand (if my interpretation of your usage of the word is correct) is just on the other side of a fine line from insecurity. the only difference between a pathetic man and the guy strutting around with bulging muscles and a spray-on tan is that the latter knows how to put on an act. your frustration is probably rooted in the fact that in the adolescent years, a lot of people actually believe it.

perhaps you'll find solace in the fact that most reasonable intelligent people can identify that someone is compensating just as easily as you do. also realize that no amount of horn tooting it ever going to change the reality that matters.

 

[heart]

machismo on the other hand (if my interpretation of your usage of the word is correct) is just on the other side of a fine line from insecurity. the only difference between a pathetic man and the guy strutting around with bulging muscles and a spray-on tan is that the latter knows how to put on an act. your frustration is probably rooted in the fact that in the adolescent years, a lot of people actually believe it.

Would a woman wearing self tanning lotion and having very fit physic be subject to just as much critique?

 

[Grayscale]

Would a woman wearing self tanning lotion and having very fit physic be subject to just as much critique?

i was using the cliche for sake of example. if you really want a tan that badly, go for the orange glo or whatever they call it--at least that way you aren't risking skin cancer for vanity.

 

[Metamorphosis]

I've heard the phrase "fake it till you make it." But don't actually know waht that means.

Is it that we fake confidence till it becomes real?

It's not something I've tried. Like I mentioned before. My confidence comes with my own perceived experience, but I can see some value in what you are saying.

It's difficult to explain since I just assumed everyone did this until I learned about MBTI. Have you ever heard of "reframing" in reference to Neuro-Linguistic Programming? It's similar to that. It's a fancy way to describe adult imagination. It's like telling your mind what to think (sounds weird, but it will make sense once you realize what I'm talking about).

Imagine walking into a room and seeing the people sitting around and think, "Man, these people don't have anything on me! I'm the fuckin man!" It's basically uptalking yourself. What you think has a tangible effect on your outward appearance that most of us don't really notice. Which is where "faking it till you make it" doesn't just apply to the mind. It's entirely possible to learn body language, tone of voice, etc, although it isn't worth the time to many types.

I didn't find your tone attacking at all. Also, "lek" is essentially "peacock" but more generally applied to the animal kingdom.

Ah, that makes since.

EDIT TO ADD: This also occurs in subcultures, as I was saying. If you took a "cliche nerd" and put him with a bunch of gangbangers, he will eventually adopt a hard knocks mentality subconciously.

 

[RDF]

I think that swaggering is mostly about pecking order. If a millionaire is in the company of middle-class guys, he's going to swagger a bit and show off his power suit and his fancy car. But if that same millionaire goes and joins a group of billionaires, he's going to dial back his swagger quite a bit (unless he wants to push an image of being the brash young up-and-comer).

Swagger in street gangs is mostly about belonging to a big gang. The members of the biggest gangs get to swagger the most and make the biggest noise in the streets. Again, pecking order.

I don't see a big problem with swagger and advertising one's place in the pecking order. Pecking orders are pretty much universal throughout the animal kingdom. People want to know where they and others stand in a group.

I don't tend to swagger real obviously. But people tell me I walk tall and project myself into the room. Which is pretty much the way I want things. If I'm going to be a participant in whatever's going on, then I don't want people to mistake me for a lightweight; I'm not one. Sometimes I'll deliberately undersell myself, like with friends where I want to emphasize equality rather than pecking order considerations. But with a crowd of strangers, I swagger a bit and claim what I feel is my appropriate place on the pecking order. Saves time and avoids problems later.

The only time swaggering goes bad is if people oversell themselves (swagger too much) or undersell themselves (don't swagger enough). In the former case they get laughed at when it eventually turns out that they can't carry their weight relative to the rest of the group. In the latter case, it can lead to some touchiness when the group ignores or treats lightly a fellow who has far greater credentials or weight than the rest of the group.

 

[RDF]

It's difficult to explain since I just assumed everyone did this until I learned about MBTI. Have you ever heard of "reframing" in reference to Neuro-Linguistic Programming? It's similar to that. It's a fancy way to describe adult imagination. It's like telling your mind what to think (sounds weird, but it will make sense once you realize what I'm talking about).

Imagine walking into a room and seeing the people sitting around and think, "Man, these people don't have anything on me! I'm the fuckin man!" It's basically uptalking yourself. What you think has a tangible effect on your outward appearance that most of us don't really notice. Which is where "faking it till you make it" doesn't just apply to the mind. It's entirely possible to learn body language, tone of voice, etc, although it isn't worth the time to many types.

Yep. Well said.

 

[ygolo]

I've been involved and hurt by guys who were lacking in the are of confidence before and I've come to realize that there's nothing I can do to make them more confident :sad:

How did you know they were lacking confidence? I am curious. I still largely equate confidence with experience, and vice-versa.

Something I find hard to read.

ygolo, you're over thinking something that is quite simple...

masculinity is just another fact of life--like, the sky is blue. those who understand that get used to the idea and live it out in a matter-of-fact manner. you don't need to tell people that the sky is blue or even bother arguing about it. just learn to accept your ability and inability and let the chips fall where they will.

Perhaps it is a simple thing.

Still. Have you never asked "why is the sky blue?" Were you satisfied with the answer?

Which link do you believe?

[...]it is by no means an idle game if we become practiced in analysing long-held commonplace concepts and showing the circumstances on which their justification and usefulness depend, and how they have grown up, individually, out of the givens of experience. Thus their excessive authority will be broken

I never consider myself "overthinking" anything. I am simply thinking. That is what I do.

Would a woman wearing self tanning lotion and having very fit physic be subject to just as much critique?

Probably not.

I am curious, Heart. Do you have an animus/anima type insight into this area as well?

It's difficult to explain since I just assumed everyone did this until I learned about MBTI. Have you ever heard of "reframing" in reference to Neuro-Linguistic Programming? It's similar to that. It's a fancy way to describe adult imagination. It's like telling your mind what to think (sounds weird, but it will make sense once you realize what I'm talking about).

Imagine walking into a room and seeing the people sitting around and think, "Man, these people don't have anything on me! I'm the fuckin man!" It's basically uptalking yourself. What you think has a tangible effect on your outward appearance that most of us don't really notice. Which is where "faking it till you make it" doesn't just apply to the mind. It's entirely possible to learn body language, tone of voice, etc, although it isn't worth the time to many types.

Yes. I was aware of the connection. I came across it both in NLP and in Hindu philosophy (and in yoga).

Still, I find the act of manipulating my beliefs for any other reason than having them correspond to the truth rather distracting.

 

[Metamorphosis]

Still, I find the act of manipulating my beliefs for any other reason than having them correspond to the truth rather distracting.

This is, I think, our major inherent difference. To me, knowledge is only as useful as its application. The end justifies the means. I admire your pursuit of truth, though.

 

[Grayscale]

Still. Have you never asked "why is the sky blue?" Were you satisfied with the answer?

Which link do you believe?

yeah, it's just a phrase... you're over thinking things again

Still, I find the act of manipulating my beliefs for any other reason than having them correspond to the truth rather distracting.

why not strive to find confidence in the real implications (or lack thereof) of what is true instead of trying to alter it? a man doesn't need to deny himself in order to find complacency. in fact, i dont think that one can find true complacency until he or her faces and deals with the truth.

 

[white]

FWIW... Grayscale's directness is an example of positive masculinity I'd like to see.

 

[ygolo]

This is, I think, our major inherent difference. To me, knowledge is only as useful as its application. The end justifies the means. I admire your pursuit of truth, though.

I suppose, in this particular case, truth itself is mailable, a moving target. In your case, behaving confidently leads to being confident.

I've tried it as an experiment on myself. Unfortunately, I was too aware of me trying it for it to work. It does work for simple relaxation however.

Confidence, for me, is built by experience. That much I know about myself.