[ENFP] ENFP with ENFJ mom -- help

[Unkindloving]

wait. so you're afraid to call her about good news? (getting a job is good news, right?)

I don't think they are saying it is bad news, but that it basically will come across as "You win, Mom. I got a job, like you told me to, and am calling you now."
It will just reinforce her tactics, i suppose?

 

[pyramid]

Indeed. I don't know how you can command people to do life activities (over and over and over) and not see it as being patronizing. Especially when she lives very comfortably and does not feel the effects of poverty resulting from years of chronic illness and barely being able to work during that time.

My mom can be the sweetest most thoughtful person in the whole world and the world's nastiest ice queen bitch. She would often display side #1 in front of my friends so they look at me like I'm confused when I describe an expression of side #2.

 

[JoSunshine]

My ex-boyfriend has an ENFJ mom who is highly manipulative. Boy was it a sight to see. If I hadn't met her, I would probably wonder what all the ENFJ bashing on this forum is about (not speaking about your post, btw...more of a general statement). It really is something. If she doesn't get her way, she withdraws attention, praise, love and limits communication and becomes down right cold. Once he and his sister complied with her demands and were back in her good graces they were "the-most-superdy-duperdy-most-brilliant-most-special-kids-in-the-whole-wide-world" and would shower them with gifts and financial support that 20 and 30 something kids don't typically get. It was almost like they were addicted to her praise and felt worthless without it. She fostered emotional and financial dependance (that she withdraws at will) in order to be able to manipulate her family. That lady has quite a racket going on.

I don't know the inracacies of your relationship with your mother, but it definitely sounds like there is some pretty significant manipulation going on there. As long as you buy into the manipulation, she will continue to try to control you. It sounds like you care about your mother and I agree that you don't want to regret not talking to her, but at the same time she needs to learn that manipulation is not the way to get what she wants from you.

 

[Venom]

Are you sure your mom isnt an ESFJ? Nothing is more personal to an ESFJ mom than her kids trying to not be "normal". They then will stop at nothing to make sure their kids dont "turn out weird" and "reflect poorly on her" :eyeroll: The fact that she wears a mask around family and your friends sounds more like SFJ Fe. (SFJ Fe is informing, NFJ is directing; they are very different Fe's).

 

[JoSunshine]

SFJ Fe is informing, NFJ is directing; they are very different Fe's

What do you mean by this? I'm interested.

 

[BlueFlame]

Indeed. I don't know how you can command people to do life activities (over and over and over) and not see it as being patronizing. Especially when she lives very comfortably and does not feel the effects of poverty resulting from years of chronic illness and barely being able to work during that time.

My mom can be the sweetest most thoughtful person in the whole world and the world's nastiest ice queen bitch. She would often display side #1 in front of my friends so they look at me like I'm confused when I describe an expression of side #2.

If my mother told me to call her when I got a job, I would make sure she heard through the grapevine that I had a job AGES before I would bother picking up the phone to call her.

She could be an ESFJ, but I can see an ENFJ who has been expending a lot of her energy supporting someone behaving the way she did. I don't think people realize how much energy we can put into others, and when we run out of emotional energy, we run the hell out.
Personally, I tend to feel like I'm doing ALL of the work and the other person is making excuses and not doing anything to help themselves, and I become resentful of that thought - even if it isn't true - and force distance until I recover.

 

[pyramid]

My ex-boyfriend has an ENFJ mom who is highly manipulative. Boy was it a sight to see. If I hadn't met her, I would probably wonder what all the ENFJ bashing on this forum is about (not speaking about your post, btw...more of a general statement). It really is something. If she doesn't get her way, she withdraws attention, praise, love and limits communication and becomes down right cold. Once he and his sister complied with her demands and were back in her good graces they were "the-most-superdy-duperdy-most-brilliant-most-special-kids-in-the-whole-wide-world" and would shower them with gifts and financial support that 20 and 30 something kids don't typically get. It was almost like they were addicted to her praise and felt worthless without it. She fostered emotional and financial dependance (that she withdraws at will) in order to be able to manipulate her family. That lady has quite a racket going on.

I don't know the inracacies of your relationship with your mother, but it definitely sounds like there is some pretty significant manipulation going on there. As long as you buy into the manipulation, she will continue to try to control you. It sounds like you care about your mother and I agree that you don't want to regret not talking to her, but at the same time she needs to learn that manipulation is not the way to get what she wants from you.

wow this is IT! I see investing this energy into the manipulation when it could go into being the amazing person that she is.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

SFJ Fe is informing, NFJ is directing; they are very different Fe's.

What do you mean by this? I'm interested.

Informing versus directing styles of interaction are profoundly different. You might want to check out the two links below to learn more. (<= Note my informative communication style which is the way ENFPs tend to communicate.)

• Interaction Styles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Overview of the theory developed by Linda Berens (based upon some ideas developed by David Kiersey).
• INFJ Communication Styles - This site is by and for INFJs, but it provides one of the best explanations of the informative/directing communication style I've ever read. Definitely check this out.

 

[pyramid]

Are you sure your mom isnt an ESFJ? Nothing is more personal to an ESFJ mom than her kids trying to not be "normal". They then will stop at nothing to make sure their kids dont "turn out weird" and "reflect poorly on her" :eyeroll: The fact that she wears a mask around family and your friends sounds more like SFJ Fe. (SFJ Fe is informing, NFJ is directing; they are very different Fe's).

she's an ENFJ -- she has slightly conservative stances (on things including) me not being weird but face it, my much of my family is "weird" and I make it look good. I helped her get over my innate weirdness by expressing it early on

Just to be sure I gave the ESFJ a good look again, it was almost as suiting as ENFJ, but the wording for the latter was much more appropriate. I also just get a heavy N vibe off her as someone that uses it a lot. Her career leans that direction too.

She is absolutely much more directing than she is informative. *ENFJ would also comply with why she cannot stand my father.*

I am still open to the ESFJ idea but that doesn't seem to describe her enough.

 

[BlueFlame]

My ex-boyfriend has an ENFJ mom who is highly manipulative. Boy was it a sight to see. If I hadn't met her, I would probably wonder what all the ENFJ bashing on this forum is about (not speaking about your post, btw...more of a general statement). It really is something. If she doesn't get her way, she withdraws attention, praise, love and limits communication and becomes down right cold. Once he and his sister complied with her demands and were back in her good graces they were "the-most-superdy-duperdy-most-brilliant-most-special-kids-in-the-whole-wide-world" and would shower them with gifts and financial support that 20 and 30 something kids don't typically get. It was almost like they were addicted to her praise and felt worthless without it. She fostered emotional and financial dependance (that she withdraws at will) in order to be able to manipulate her family. That lady has quite a racket going on.

I don't know the inracacies of your relationship with your mother, but it definitely sounds like there is some pretty significant manipulation going on there. As long as you buy into the manipulation, she will continue to try to control you. It sounds like you care about your mother and I agree that you don't want to regret not talking to her, but at the same time she needs to learn that manipulation is not the way to get what she wants from you.

Wow, I'm glad I'm not the only one who has a mom like that! I don't know anyone IRL who really knows what it's like to be held hostage by your own mother (Actually, now that I think about it, my SO and one of my close friends have dealt with a high level of emotional manipulation from their ESFJ mothers, but it's a lot different, so I don't really relate to it.)! She leans more to the P side of life, so Fe isn't really her thing, but money-wise, my god. She really did create a world of financial dependence for my brother and I. Partially because that's just how she shows her love, but also because it's how she exerts control. I was married with children and she was STILL paying my college tuition, rent, cell phone bill and god knows what else....and using it to keep me in line because *whoever has the gold makes the rules.* She was actually going to attempt to MAKE me go to medical school and withdraw support if I refused.
So, I let her. Best thing I've ever done. I needed to make my own path in life, even if that meant being poor for a while.

I still accept gifts, though. She can't take those back.

am still open to the ESFJ idea but that doesn't seem to describe her enough.

The fluid-like relationship you have suggests to me that she's also an N, not an ESFJ.

 

[proteanmix]

pyramid I have a question for you:

What do you mean when you say you're "weird" and can you give me some examples of your weirdness?

Also do you mind me asking how old you are?

 

[pyramid]

pyramid I have a question for you:

What do you mean when you say you're "weird" and can you give me some examples of your weirdness?

Also do you mind me asking how old you are?

I have always been my own person completely unfazed by whether it was deemed acceptable by others or not (in my older years I combine this also with what will be most affecting to my audience). I really like the idea that what is right is right even if no one is doing it and what is wrong is wrong even if everybody is doing it.

I was definitely into rebellious subcultures growing up -- I like things for their uniqueness and novelty, even if other people consider it a tragedy or abomination or depressing.

I have socially challenging interests and loud ideas. To think and live in the future is "abnormal" to a good deal of people.

I don't thrive on being weird, but I definitely have never conformed to the American, suburbanite, Christian White Man's World I grew up in.

I am 23 (public info, take a look at my profile for some supporting images ). I suppose there isn't a lot of direct evidence here so let me say I am a big fan of body modification, cacophonous sound, and Robert Crumb's Weirdo comics

 

[pyramid]

Wow, I'm glad I'm not the only one who has a mom like that! I don't know anyone IRL who really knows what it's like to be held hostage by your own mother (Actually, now that I think about it, my SO and one of my close friends have dealt with a high level of emotional manipulation from their ESFJ mothers, but it's a lot different, so I don't really relate to it.)! She leans more to the P side of life, so Fe isn't really her thing, but money-wise, my god. She really did create a world of financial dependence for my brother and I. Partially because that's just how she shows her love, but also because it's how she exerts control. I was married with children and she was STILL paying my college tuition, rent, cell phone bill and god knows what else....and using it to keep me in line because *whoever has the gold makes the rules.* She was actually going to attempt to MAKE me go to medical school and withdraw support if I refused.
So, I let her. Best thing I've ever done. I needed to make my own path in life, even if that meant being poor for a while.

I still accept gifts, though. She can't take those back.

The fluid-like relationship you have suggests to me that she's also an N, not an ESFJ.

yeah she was graciously helping me out with medical expenses and supplementing my rent when I didn't have it all because I couldn't work, though we made agreements like she could still claim me on taxes to get that $$ back, etc. She was helping with $ out of my college fund I assured her I wouldn't be using

then one day she decided she was done helping and that I don't really have an illness, etc etc

she gave me fair warning about cutting me off financially but it was then that I realized this is the only way she's ever going to be able to cut the mental umbilical cord. we later got in a fight and she threatened to turn off all sources of help, which I encouraged her to do. While she's still providing it she can still feel responsible for all of my actions.

gifts --- I can't even tell what is the difference between gift and what she feels is motherly duty and what she's using to manipulate me. I would receive gifts and then later be blackmailed with guilt by a demand of hers that she would weigh with the gift. My god I have really high anxiety about money after all that. I wouldn't let anyone pay for me forever and I remember to the exact f***ing penny how much I owe someone. I shudder to think of a relationship of mine being destroyed by financial conflict.


How is your relationship after all this, BlueFlame?

 

[Venom]

To think and live in the future is "abnormal" to a good deal of people.

When I have more time I will explain to you about "ants vs grasshoppers" and people with high personal discount rates vs low personal discount rates.

ENFPs definitely fall into "grasshoppers" with high personal discount rates. This is why ENFPs can be "not very conservative" even if they are the most "texan republican" on the planet...

 

[Venom]

When I have more time I will explain to you about "ants vs grasshoppers" and people with high personal discount rates vs low personal discount rates.

ENFPs definitely fall into "grasshoppers" with high personal discount rates. This is why ENFPs can be "not very conservative" even if they are the most "texan republican" on the planet...

okay so pyramid.

There is a fable about the grasshopper and the ants (here are the cliff notes)
--the ants spend all of the summer working hard, stock piling food, building out their underground shelter and not really goofing off that much.
--the grasshoppers enjoy the summer, but at the expense of stock piling any food and building any shelter
--winter comes, and the grasshoppers freeze to death/starve to death. The ants however, are able to survive in their underground shelter with plenty of food stockpiled

moral of the story: living day by day can leave you with no shelter and no stock pile when that cold rainy day finally comes. (Ants = ISTJ, grasshoppers = ENFP )

So why did the grasshoppers not value their future as much as the ants did? Discount rates. A growth rate is what compounds a value going forward in time (ie growth rate of y would compound this present day value over 5 years into this Future Value). A discount rate is what "shrinks" a future value back in time over some years, back to its present day value.
--a high discount rate might mean that you shrink the Future Value so much that its Present Value is nill.
--a low discount rate might mean that you shrink the Future Value so little that its Present Value is still quite high.
--Therefore, high discount rate people live in the present, with less concern for their future
--The low discount rate people live in the future, with more concern for their future

So to bring everything together, the Ants have a low personal discount rate and look after their future. The grasshoppers have a high personal discount rate and look after their present.
--when the rain comes, the future oriented stock pilers often come out on top
--rain does come
--this is why people get mad at/think fools of the present oriented ENFPs

The End.

 

[JoSunshine]

wow this is IT! I see investing this energy into the manipulation when it could go into being the amazing person that she is.

Yes, it was really hard to watch. It was even harder to hold my tongue about what was happening. It literally makes me sooooo sad thinking about it. Her kids were deeply effected by her behavior, very insecure and manipulative - mamma taught them well. It was a big dysfunctional stew and everyone involved was deeply hurt and damaged from it. The thing is - they are all really well-intentioned people who didn't mean to be hurtful, they were just so afraid of being hurt and loosing control that they stepped all over other people (including each other) as a way of defending their fragile egos and emotions.

Lucky for you, you sound like you are far more independant and confident than this woman's children. I think cutting the strings and not accepting financial support or extravagant gifts is a good start. I know it can be scary, but you will probably need to be pretty verbal about things with her, "Thank you for the offer, Mom, but it is important to me that I do this on my own." "I always appreciate your advice, but I am going to do things my way." This will probably be pretty hard for your Mom and you will most likely get a lot of push back becuase it sounds like she has a strong need to be needed. She will probably question, attack and belittle your choices trying to regain some control over you and dependance from you. It will probably help if you spend quite a bit of time reassuring her and telling her that you love and care about her. Maybe even encourage her to pursue some of her own interests so she has someplace to expend energy and feel needed elsewhere. Just know that even though how she is behaving seems quite contrary to this...she is probably afraid of loosing you (and control over you) when it comes right down to it.

 

[pyramid]

okay so pyramid.

The End.

The subects of your analogy seem mutually exclusive. Humans are based on interdependence. However, I am aware of the moralistic end to this fable. I guess this implies ENFP are the ant's opposite. Well it is much harder to discover your ant-like duty when you have a mind of a grasshopper and are not a drone! The grasshopper too has a purpose or it would not exisist.

Of course a balanced ENFP is present-oriented. That's where the body lives. I am me. And I have a body. If I want to continue being me I will do what is best for my body.

so what is the ENFP deficiency here? Pragmatism? Direct realism? Obviously. Is this an admonition or what? Not all ENFP are idle daydreamers that live paycheck to paycheck expecting others to labor for them. I'm sure many of them are percieved to start off this way though, or clumsily act out their immature fate. All types achieve balance. You have a lot to say for the traits of underdeveloped ENFP!

There is less partying going on and more mental exercise than you might see from the outside.

If I live in the present due to my discount rate, that means to me that my work is mostly directly affecting & alters the present more than the future. I will agree with that fact. My actions are precisely designed to be most effective Right Now. (Right Now is a ray of the future-present. From present to everything forward of that infinitely.) I could never achieve my effectiveness if I didn't concern myself with the idea that my direct actions are what is best and most resounding for the future. Very sustainable.

I mostly identify with "me" over my body (due to my functions) and "I" live in the future. The collective me is everywhere and nowhere at once.

 

[BlueFlame]

yeah she was graciously helping me out with medical expenses and supplementing my rent when I didn't have it all because I couldn't work, though we made agreements like she could still claim me on taxes to get that $$ back, etc. She was helping with $ out of my college fund I assured her I wouldn't be using

then one day she decided she was done helping and that I don't really have an illness, etc etc

Sigh...
Well, it sounds like it was just one of those *I'm done helping you until you help yourself* moments. I don't know if it's just supposed to be some sort of tough love or she just ran out of steam, but it's sad either way.

she gave me fair warning about cutting me off financially but it was then that I realized this is the only way she's ever going to be able to cut the mental umbilical cord. we later got in a fight and she threatened to turn off all sources of help, which I encouraged her to do. While she's still providing it she can still feel responsible for all of my actions.

That's really interesting coming from the other side of the coin. When all of that happened, how did she seem to be feeling? Resigned, angry, detached, calm?

I guess it really would be her feeling responsible for you, considering she's the ENFJ. Coming from my situation, I always felt responsible for my mother and her decisions and emotions, and she had no problem leaning on me from the time I was about 8, and she discovered the *wonders* of my Ni.
In 2008 I cut off contact with her for about 7 months for that exact reason. I just couldn't do it anymore. She would lean on me and come to me for advice and we would literally spend hours coming up with solutions and working through things, then, in the end, she would throw it all away and live in the destructive moment. And I think that's a sort of extreme example of what BC was talking about. There's nothing wrong with being what the very essence of an ENFP is, it's just frustrating for others to watch when it's in a negative light...especially when you're dealing with someone like an ENFJ. Not saying you're on the path of destruction or anything, but that could be how your mom sees it.

[/quote]gifts --- I can't even tell what is the difference between gift and what she feels is motherly duty and what she's using to manipulate me. I would receive gifts and then later be blackmailed with guilt by a demand of hers that she would weigh with the gift. My god I have really high anxiety about money after all that. I wouldn't let anyone pay for me forever and I remember to the exact f***ing penny how much I owe someone. I shudder to think of a relationship of mine being destroyed by financial conflict.[/quote]

Yikes. I guess moms will use whatever tools they have in their arsenal to *set their kids straight,* eh? I cannot flipping imagine life with my mother if she was as financially controlling as she is AND an Fe-dom. At least with her, she just gives because she wants to. In the moment, she takes away to try to gain leverage, but she's never used it as emotional leverage.
In the end, you're so much better off without what she's giving (monetarily speaking). Everything has a price, and apparently you're both paying the emotional cost.

How is your relationship after all this, BlueFlame?

Now? It's SO much better with more distance and no strings left to use to control me.
Did you call momma yet?

 

[pyramid]

Sigh...
Well, it sounds like it was just one of those *I'm done helping you until you help yourself* moments. I don't know if it's just supposed to be some sort of tough love or she just ran out of steam, but it's sad either way.

yeah, thankfully we have the past

That's really interesting coming from the other side of the coin. When all of that happened, how did she seem to be feeling? Resigned, angry, detached, calm?

all of the above. +in disbelief, smug

I guess it really would be her feeling responsible for you, considering she's the ENFJ. Coming from my situation, I always felt responsible for my mother and her decisions and emotions, and she had no problem leaning on me from the time I was about 8, and she discovered the *wonders* of my Ni.

I have a lot of friends with Ni that have parents like that. I have always noticed how responsible my mom feels for me...

In 2008 I cut off contact with her for about 7 months for that exact reason. I just couldn't do it anymore. She would lean on me and come to me for advice and we would literally spend hours coming up with solutions and working through things, then, in the end, she would throw it all away and live in the destructive moment. And I think that's a sort of extreme example of what BC was talking about. There's nothing wrong with being what the very essence of an ENFP is, it's just frustrating for others to watch when it's in a negative light...especially when you're dealing with someone like an ENFJ. Not saying you're on the path of destruction or anything, but that could be how your mom sees it.

...it's how I know she's a good mom and why she has rejected our differences.

Yikes. I guess moms will use whatever tools they have in their arsenal to *set their kids straight,* eh? I cannot flipping imagine life with my mother if she was as financially controlling as she is AND an Fe-dom. At least with her, she just gives because she wants to. In the moment, she takes away to try to gain leverage, but she's never used it as emotional leverage.
In the end, you're so much better off without what she's giving (monetarily speaking). Everything has a price, and apparently you're both paying the emotional cost.

Now? It's SO much better with more distance and no strings left to use to control me.
Did you call momma yet?

Not quite over all those emotional costs yet ... almost!
She will likely notice talk of my job through facebook and call or text about it. she has limited technology ettiquette.