[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[SillySapienne]

Fi is about values, self-awareness, and values, values, values, personally derived ones, intrinsic ones, Right and Wrong.

As an ENFP we hold dear and near to us what our Fi tells us, it is the holy grail, it is the quiet yet strong voice in our heads spoken from our hearts.

It is what makes life meaningful, why we live.

When we feel hurt, disillusioned, sad, frustrated, mad this is when either WE go against our Fi, ie when we let ourselves down, temporarily going against our values, or when we feel we are on the wrong path, or...

When others hurt that thing which we hold so dear!!!

You hurt my Fi, you lacerate my soul.

Fi seeks truth, fairness, understanding, compassion, authenticity, love, and goodness!

Fi wants Right to prevail over Wrong, within ourselves and within the world.

Fi in itself is not a nasty function in the least, but when we feel someone or something is going against this finely tuned bell of constantly revised understanding of Truth, yeah, we'll become angry, incited, and may even lash out at those we feel are being unequivocal Assholes.

No one's perfect.

We understand.

Fi is all about understanding ourselves and others.

What makes you, you and why?

What makes me, me and why?

How are we the same?

How are we dissimilar, and why.

 

[fireandwater]

I don't have time to read all the replies, so I apologize if I repeat points already made. I was not happy with an INTJ pairing, personally, but that's not necessarily indicative, I guess. The experience for me was one of me being overly infatuated and him retreating into a deep dark hole over time and kinda dragging me with him. (Or I ran after him, trying to pull him out, I guess, which irritated him and made him retreat further.) It wasn't just the I part, either, as I have been happily married 15 years to an I (SFP). I don't think the pick such and so type theories hold water. I seem to recall reading that actual research showed the more letters you have in common, the better for your relationship. Three letters off, with INTJ, would be really hard. My best relationships were with ISFP and with another ENFP. I've never known an INFP male, to my knowledge, but get along great with healthy INFP women, for whatever that's worth. I have male friends who are ENFJ, but I've never been romantically attracted to one. Still, all these things are individual. Depends what qualities freak you out because of childhood issues (J for me), where you want to balance yourself (S for me) or where you need someone to "get" you (F and P for me). You're an ENFP, trust your instincts above anything anybody else says. I ignored warning dreams about the 2 worst relationships I had, but followed the advice of my dreams to marry the man I did and they were right.

 

[simulatedworld]

Ugh if only you guys understood socionics. All of the relationship styles of the types are very clearly given...

And very clearly bullshit.

 

[Poki]

And very clearly bullshit.

Dont pin your lack of understanding on us.

 

[simulatedworld]

Dont pin your lack of understanding on us.

I've read all the background on the relationships between types and I very rarely see any of them actually work in practice.

 

[Poki]

I've read all the background on the relationships between types and I very rarely see any of them actually work in practice.

Reading doesnt equal comprehension nor understanding. Just the ability to match a group of letters to a thought/image/sound.

 

[onemoretime]

Yeah, the reason why it bothers me is because some people really enjoy this dynamic in a relationship - the power exchange, dominance and submission, playing up to a partner so they'll "take care of you" - and clearly if someone is choosing to be in a relationship with someone who does these things, they are choosing to play the game. All I see going on here is a bunch of people who do not prefer that style of romantic or sexual play postulating about why they personally find it distasteful. It's like...mmm...okay. That's nice. If you don't like it, that's cool, but why are you forcing your own sexual and emotional preferences on us by slyly calling what we do "manipulation" and other vaguely perjorative terms.

I don't get this response. It's like any time some suggestion is made, it's interpreted as though we want to imprison people for bothering us. I mean, have you noticed how much ENTPs don't like to be controlled, either?

If we're commanding anything, it's that you simply be careful with what you do, and preferably don't do it towards members of the general public, and make for damn sure that you aren't inadvertently inflicting harm on someone you care about. A monstrous thing to say to someone, right?

Hey look, another ENFP and ENTP bicker fest! It's not like we don't have a million threads that turn into this.

So what's this all about then!

Your guess is as good as mine.

Can't you guys take your whining and complaining about Fi somewhere else? Must it always come to this? WTH?

Can't you take any comment that isn't waxing poetic about the glories of Fi without resorting to the fangs? At the very least, can't you accept that our opinions on the subject are just as valid as your own?

What else is new.

Also, playing the hypocritical card at this stage is kinda..yeah. Hypocritical, I'd say. And hilariously ironic.

Shouldn't have done this. I told Q I wasn't going to do this, but you couldn't leave well enough alone:

Sorry..I'm kinda tired of the whole Fe judgement scales. Really am. You (= general you, for Fe-users who feel this way about Fi, btw) may consider Fe fairness, I consider it a jugmental bitch at times. You may consider Fi immature, but to me it stands for acceptance. Embracing differences and rising above them without losing your own identity in the masses, yet willing to share it with those that appreciate it, without paranoia or fear of judgement.

Plz look at your responses, think them through and tell me how you're not being judgemental.

Oh and the last paragraph, I meant rising above the differences, that's what the *them* was referring to. Kinda..interesting to see you automatically assumed it was rising above people I wanted to do.

I'm seeking to understand, not to convert. I wonder if you do the same. Coz although I by now understand why it is Fe-users see it the way they do, and I've signalled that as such, I have yet to see any clues of understanding from your side. And I am trying to explain..but I wonder if it's an explanation you want, if you seek to understand, or if you seek to convert. To make me see the error of my ways. You say 'others have these reactions and responses others have to your actions'. Untrue. These are the responses and reactions *you* have to me, and other people who feel the way you do. Fe-users aren't the majority though. There's just as many Fi users, and I don't see you catering to them, or trying to adjust to their needs. To realize the consequences of your actions on them.

Amazing how a paragraph can start and end with completely contradictory sentences, right?

Oh, and for all the lovely prose about "acceptance" and "understanding":

And I'm not date-raping anyone. I think part of the problem is that you feel blindsighted by this. Only you and Q have, in this discussion, said that it was not consented. The question is in the approach. I've already given you an example: if a guy tries to sync up with me, his motivation for doing so is quite clear, as doing so tends to reveal a part of who you are, it..provides personal info, kinda like pheromones. If I sense genuine curiosity, and admiration, I will gladly let him sync up with me, respond to his emotional nudge. If I sense that it's a means to an end, I'll smile and refuse to answer his nudge. This all happens without explicitely stating it..but it's still communication. Maybe it's something you don't really pick up on? And that's where this paranoia comes from? You only notice it after someone repeatedly nudged you, or has already gone further in the process without you picking up on it?

...

It's just an additional means of communicating, to me. I consider it a benefit to be able to make people feel at ease with me. It smoothens things out, and it makes me relax as well. It closes that annoying social gap that's there. And some people don't know how to bridge it. I do. So I'm happy to do it for them. And they're more than welcome to tell me 'no'.

As for the dialogue..my bad. If I remember correctly, I started by answering some genuine-seeming questions by the two ENTPs on the dynamic of Fi between INTJ and ENFP, which was still relevant to the topic. Of course, as always, it spiralled out of control when tertiary Fe met Fi. Oh well.

So, it is not that you're missing something? It's not that you might be misinterpreting a friendly nudge for a hostile take over?

I don't think you really know what I mean by a nudge.

Oh really?

It's a game
One upping, much like you guys do, beating each other with wit. I do that with emotions. And yes, then it is manipulation, and the other is doing the same to you, to see who can make the other feel uncomfortable, or make them blush, or make them speechless the first. It's still the 'manipulation' of each others emotions, changing your emotional states as such. But it's for fun. It can also be done to benefit the other, to change their mood from sad to happy, or to make them experience pleasure. That too can be requested.

The healthy among us at least admit our "games of wit" can have grave and serious consequences.

Oh, and the best of all:

And you call us oversensitive? You do the same with mind-rape, dude. And you also tell us to grow up and get over it. And once again, I might not like a guy's hand on my body, but it's not something to scream 'rape' over. I'll just tell him it's not appreciated. Period. As for full blown emotional manipulation, I only use that out of sheer self-defense and even then I'm reluctant, or when it is in fact invited and requested (and yes, I do check that twice before going for it), though maybe you've met people who are less ethical, I dunno. That Fi-connection is somethign I treasure anyways, and don't just share with anyone as it makes me vulnerable too.

I agree that forcing something on someone is never right. And I for one very much get pissy when I see someone forcing someone else into something they clearly don't want. I'm also the first to stop if I notice that the other person isn't enjoying what I'm doing, whatever that may be, emotional manipulation or not. I'm agreeing with you on this, 100 per cent.

But realize this isn't evil. It's just not your preference. And other people do very much enjoy it, and that doesn't mean you get to scream 'rape' every time you see it happening.

Not seeking to convert. Only seeking to understand. Right.

Q's not hypocritical at all. She's deadly accurate.

Because this thread isn't about you and how you feel about us. ENTPs seem to think everything is about them.

A conversation is a free-flowing thing. It goes from one place to another. That you would suppress others' thoughts on things because you think we "think everything is about [us]" (blatant projection if I've ever seen it) suggests a disturbingly Orwellian facet to your character that I'd hope we would have all grown past at this point.

Kindly refrain from telling me what to do. Ever.

Those who would reject a gift outright - do they even know the impact that it has on the giver?

Did you not read the whole story about the goddamn burrito?

After some thought-Amar-you need to evalute the way you use Fi on people who you aren't fucking. Its a powertrip hidden behind a slutty sugar coat. Quit using Te to justify and use Fi to ethically evaluate the consequnces. Its fucked up.

On a brighter note.

Fi is about air. Salty fresh cold in my mouth nose throat. Fi feels. Fi is about how millions of grains of sand mix in thousands of colors, all crumbling, merging, differntiating, continually. No end no start, just flowing amorphism. Fi is how you can feel the way the waves sound. The way they pull your soul in and out, as they crash.

Fi is waves, ne sees the patterns, the merging, the potential, endless complexity, yet repeating over and over in simplicity.

Why wouldn't the world be a cycle? Why would it ever end? Fi isn't about me, its about everything all connected, all one endless entity.

Heaven would be to merge into oneness with the patterns, until there is no end, no beginning.

Also I came up with a cool idea about Fi forging simulations mentally. My entp says that's bullshit and then Fi connects people across time and space and my simulation idea is crap.

Alrighty then. Entps are always right.

Time to take a nap on the sand, tangle my fingers into the hair of my lover, the ocean.

We're not always right - but we always do have a nugget of validity hidden in everything we say. It's good to have feedback from others who see things differently, and are interested in growth.

HP's my friend. She's also one of the wisest people I've met, both online and IRL. That's because of Fi - she "gets" the big picture on a metaphysical level that I'll probably never understand. However, she also understands that every one of her actions impact others, and that no matter what, even if she doesn't "feel" the Fe, hurting others hurts her as much as it does them. We've had several discussions where we've genuinely disagreed, but never these sorts of flamewars because both of us understood that the disagreement was where the opportunity for learning and growth lay.

Thank you for this.

 

[Kalach]

Actually saying something like "we bat our eyelids and make people work for us" is a Te-analysis, possibly superficial, of some, possibly real, process X.

Why does batting eyelids work? To garner an emotional response. That knowledge, I can't see it being solely in the domain of Te.

I mean, when the ENFPs say they're using some manipulative process, that act of saying is Te. And that they're using Te to describe the supposed process automatically makes it granted that there is a process. They don't necessarily get the title of the process right since they're not talking in Ti, and they don't necessarily describe it right since they're, well, using Te--Te makes things sound mechanical and impersonal.

I may be projecting.

But these thoughts sorta of go together with this:

faith is different than the confidence you get from Te. i generally find Te to over-estimate its abilities. it is good at getting something done, but the value of what that something is often leaves me feeling this, meh, but WHY did you do it that predominant Te users can never seem to answer (only evade).

uumlau responded well to this one. My own version is:

Because they could and they wanted to, in that order. Te is like a beloved mechanical arm. We can crush beer cans, break glasses and lift up buildings. Why? Because we can, and therefore, eventually, because we want to. That thinking process gets to be viewed that way because of its extroverted focus, I think--it's not actually separate from us, but the focus is on things separated from us, so the thinking takes on that flavour of separate, objective, impersonal, needed by the situation... And we get involved because we can. What else could we do given these functions?

 

[garbage]

Parts of the conversation barely belong here and should be taken somewhere else. That doesn't mean that the opinions expressed in those particular threads of conversation are invalid or should be censored; just that there's a better place for those particular conversation threads.

That is all. Again.

 

[onemoretime]

Because, of course, you calling touching people's emotions and playing games with a romantic partner assault and thought crimes is not at all judgemental.

Not of a person, just of the actions.

When I was 14, I'd go slug a buddy in the arm to greet him, and he'd do it in return, and it was all fun and games. As I got older, I realized that punching people in the arm to greet them was inappropriate, since a lot of them really did not like that sort of violation of their personal space, nor the reaction from the violent act. So I stopped doing it to most people - the only ones I'll do that to are the ones I already know enjoy that sort of thing.

 

[Valiant]

Dude this thread totally dovetailed.

On the crackberry so can't read all posts.

Anyways to get the thread back on topic:

Intjs-are you aware of how you test people who show a romantic interest in you? I had no idea how common this was. Everybody says you guys do this.

Are you aware you are doing it?

Agreed...

I sense a flicker of understanding in the back of my head...

I lay subtle little traps way before anything has even gotten romantic,
just to test little stuff like compassion, mental acuity, knowledge, understanding, thought process...
I mean. I don't put my subjects into a maze or anything.
I just talk to them. See if they help me without me asking.
It's more about intense observation and asking the right questions.

It's not some well-defined mental list, there are just things that have to be there and things that shouldn't be there.
If the "subject" shows a nasty lack of something I need... Well. Over and done.

The latest stage things can really go wrong is when things have indeed come to some form of primitive romance.
The sex can be incredibly wrong, and it has to be right.
I'm sad to say that while 90% of the cases are enjoyable, only around 10% is "right" with a big R.
I've overlooked the sex part too many times in favor for other qualities, but it drives the whole project into a wall at some point.

Of course my questions as well as what I seek in an individual differs from other INTJs, from ever so slightly to worlds apart.
Maybe the methods are alike in some respects, though.

Is this what you were talking about?
Or were you talking about us being testing as in hard to love?
I can totally see both points

 

[sculpting]

After some thought-Amar-you need to evalute the way you use Fi on people who you aren't fucking. Its a powertrip hidden behind a slutty sugar coat. Quit using Te to justify and use Fi to ethically evaluate the consequnces. Its fucked up.

Kindly refrain from telling me what to do. Ever.

Hmm, I guess that did have a bit o' Te laying down the law in it. You know I have seen the Ti folks harp with about this issue, and I didnt pay a lot of attention. But your convo with OMT really got to me.

I spent all of last year getting drug back and forth by an entp guy-who did what you do-but using tert Fe instead of your Fi. It's just for fun, just a game, just "playing around". I had never had someone be able to reach inside me and manipulate my emotions that way, than abandon me, then come back a month later and start over again. I never even kissed him, yet was left really emotionally fucked up from the experience.

Cant blame him-ENTPs are kind emo dumb honestly and his tert Fe is how he plays. He doesnt even know what Fe is and would have no idea how this hurt me.

However ENFPs do know better naturally and anyone on this site should have a very good understanding at this point of how manipulating another's emo state can fuck with them. Fi is a gift, not a tool, not a plaything.

I am sorry if it came across as harsh, but emo rape is a good term to describe how I felt last year and how pulling Fi out of a Ti user would feel like. They shun from it and it repulses them-unless they are exceptionally close to you. It hurts them and disables them.

I mostly work on principles and ethics but my singular value appears to be that you shouldnt hurt others, and once you realize you are, you should stop.

rejection=hurt, false promises=hurt, lies=hurt

(Hmm, maybe I have four values?)

 

[Kalach]

Dude this thread totally dovetailed.

On the crackberry so can't read all posts.

Anyways to get the thread back on topic:

Intjs-are you aware of how you test people who show a romantic interest in you? I had no idea how common this was. Everybody says you guys do this.

Are you aware you are doing it?

You mean like, do we have a people focus, or something?

I'm not aware of testing. I am aware of assessing possible outcomes.

 

[Thalassa]

I don't get this response. It's like any time some suggestion is made, it's interpreted as though we want to imprison people for bothering us. I mean, have you noticed how much ENTPs don't like to be controlled, either?

If we're commanding anything, it's that you simply be careful with what you do, and preferably don't do it towards members of the general public, and make for damn sure that you aren't inadvertently inflicting harm on someone you care about. A monstrous thing to say to someone, right?

Oh just stop it with the Fe lectures, please. You guys are really getting on my nerves. As if anyone here is just randomly running about manipulating others with Fi for sadistic kicks.

Can't you take any comment that isn't waxing poetic about the glories of Fi without resorting to the fangs? At the very least, can't you accept that our opinions on the subject are just as valid as your own?

You guys just talk about it so much that it's fucking crap. It's as though I came into an ENTP/INFJ thread and started bitching about what I hate about Ti.

A conversation is a free-flowing thing. It goes from one place to another. That you would suppress others' thoughts on things because you think we "think everything is about [us]" (blatant projection if I've ever seen it) suggests a disturbingly Orwellian facet to your character that I'd hope we would have all grown past at this point.

Who the fuck is surpressing anyone's thoughts? Where are you guys getting this shit? By expressing my opinion I'm "suppressing your thoughts"? How does one even go about suppressing thoughts...is it even possible without drugs or severe head trauma?

You're telling us what to do, and that's "just your opinion" but if I point out your flaws then I'm "supressing your thoughts." Nice. Fuckin' paranoid, melodramatic ENTP hypocrites using hyperbolic emotional language to detract from the actual point.

 

[Laurie]

I've seen the "people testing" in INTJ as I do people testing, too. It's not like a demanding testing, more of keeping tally of what the person reacts to or is like.

 

[onemoretime]

Oh just stop it with the Fe lectures, please. You guys are really getting on my nerves. As if anyone here is just randomly running about manipulating others with Fi for sadistic kicks.

Get over yourself.

You guys just talk about it so much that it's fucking crap. It's as though I came into an ENTP/INFJ thread and started bitching about what I hate about Ti.

By all means, do. It would be fun.

Who the fuck is surpressing anyone's thoughts? Where are you guys getting this shit? By expressing my opinion I'm "suppressing your thoughts"? How does one even go about suppressing thoughts...is it even possible without drugs or severe head trauma?

Don't be self-righteously obtuse. You're better than that. Notice how I've never criticized Fi for feeling in any way - just the actions I consider to be harmful to others. On the other hand...

As if. You're the one crying censorship. ENTPs just don't like it when the majority of other people's opinion is STFU.

Look at that. You don't know for certain that most of the people in here don't appreciate our contribution. However, because it's pissing you off, everyone must agree that they shall not speak. Your opinion is that anyone with the letters ENTP below their avatar should not have a thought on the subject, much less dare to express their thoughts.

We've always been at war with Eastasia.

You're telling us what to do

No I'm not.

and that's "just your opinion" but if I point out your flaws then I'm "supressing your thoughts."

False equivalency is false.

Nice. Fuckin' paranoid, melodramatic ENTP hypocrites using hyperbolic emotional language to detract from the actual point.

A wonderful combination of ad hominem and psychological projection. Impressive, really. I should probably print this out and frame it, since I'll never likely again see another one like it.

On the other thought, never mind. I probably will. It'll probably include quotes from this post.

 

[simulatedworld]

Reading doesnt equal comprehension nor understanding. Just the ability to match a group of letters to a thought/image/sound.

I see. How should I go about improving my understanding of socionics descriptions of relationships between types so that I may critique them meaningfully?

 

[Thalassa]

Get over yourself.

It would be nice if every ENTP on this forum did just that. Got over themselves and how they sincerely believe there's wisdom in every wall of text they crank out.

Don't be self-righteously obtuse. You're better than that. Notice how I've never criticized Fi for feeling in any way - just the actions I consider to be harmful to others. On the other hand...

Ok. You consider certain actions harmful. And I think you're painting worst case scenarios and totally misunderstanding how people play with Fi in a romantic context.

Look at that. You don't know for certain that most of the people in here don't appreciate our contribution. However, because it's pissing you off, everyone must agree that they shall not speak. Your opinion is that anyone with the letters ENTP below their avatar should not have a thought on the subject, much less dare to express their thoughts.

Well, at least three ENFPs don't appreciate your contribution, so what does that tell you?

Yeah, the longer I'm on the forum, the more I'm convinced by various ENTP members on this site that collectively you are one of my least favorite types. You go around beating people over the head with Ti and then telling them to "toughen up." I really don't like that about you guys ... it's rude, obnoxious, and self-absorbed....except for when it's funny, and it's just not in this case.

Ce la vie.

P.S. I never said that ENTPs shouldn't think what they think, or even express what they think. I suggested that mayhaps there's a more "appropriate" place for your harpings about the evils of Fi than an ENFP/INTJ thread. Just my opinion. I never asked a moderator to actually stop you guys. I don't do things like that, but you're the second person to accuse me of CENSORSHIP OMGZ!!!!!1111

A wonderful combination of ad hominem and psychological projection. Impressive, really. I should probably print this out and frame it, since I'll never likely again see another one like it.

On the other thought, never mind. I probably will. It'll probably include quotes from this post.

I'm the one projecting but you're talking about thought suppression and Orwell? Mmkay.

 

[simulatedworld]

I think I know where this should go next:

 

[Laurie]

^that would be awesome. I would so watch it.