[ENFP] ENFP+INTJ=Disasterous Combo o' love

[Qre:us]

Also, playing the hypocritical card at this stage is kinda..yeah. Hypocritical, I'd say. And hilariously ironic.

Explain where I've been hypocritical?

@ Fi manipulation- different types will perceive different functions in different ways. ENTPs and ENFPs have pretty different values and ways of doing things, so naturally they will see Fi in a different way. And that's it. Not hard to figure out.

Again, what I was referring to was not Fi-manipulation as if Fi as a function manipulates. But, how some Fi users can utilize Fi to be manipulative, just like some Fe-users can have their own brand of manipulation.

This same thing happened with Simulatedworld's thread, where certain examples of Fi manifestation is taken to be a generalization on Fi as a whole.

Why does that keep happening? Using what logic?

Because this thread isn't about you and how you feel about us. ENTPs seem to think everything is about them.

Read my initial post when I entered this thread...especially take note of the TITLE.

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...fp-intj-disasterous-combo-37.html#post1046632

And, why I felt it might be relevant.

But, why not pick on poki, who is an ISTP, who also engaged in a long dialogue with me in this thread? Why the ENTP? Was it because he was in support?

Good job with being unbaised.

If you don't like it, that's cool, but why are you forcing your own sexual and emotional preferences on us by slyly calling what we do "manipulation" and other vaguely perjorative terms.

No. That's again your emotional response to it. No one is forcing shit on you. We have a right to express our opinion as do you. Do not whine about censoring my thought.

As well, I only spoke of two examples by two posters. And, read these clarifications I responded with, to Kalach. Carefully.

To each their own. Flavours, taste the rainbows, or some such relevant NF analogy.

We can go too far in labelling behaviours, all and sundry, to the consequence of functional manifestations, rather than the functional manifestations being a consequence of the individual's own intention. I dunno, like self-esteem.

The self-esteem, I'm not getting out of thin air, but from those examples themselves who said they had issues with male figures in their lives. I don't project shit on people.

Actually, I do what SS does as well. And yes, it does stem from insecurity.

And, further clarification:

Appropriate response? Can range from anywhere between to ORLY?! to . Depends on the individuals involved and their personal intentions/desire, and dynamics between.

I think this is the main thing those who were supporting such "Fi manipulation" wanted to explain. It is harmless teasing that is invited and welcomed by the other party.
I just think that throughout the course of the discussion, a lot of contradictions, and extreme statements made this simple point disappear into obscurity.

And, when I said that I interpreted it as manipulation, an xNFP herself, validated that stance:

The reason you didn't like the comment is probably becoz it reeks of manipulation. I have a permit for it though from him
And not all manipulation is necessarily bad. He knows he can trust me to use it with care, that I would never purposefully take advantage of him or harm him.

Maybe you should also throw stones at Amar, for agreeing with this "Fi-manipulation" stance?

****

It seems you guys say that you want to engage in "dialogue" but, not really, because the dialogue must be all in agreement (or agree with you guys within a few posts) and include good, fluffy vibes, otherwise, the other instantly becomes the bad bully. Grow a pair!

 

[BlackCat]

Again, what I was referring to was not Fi-manipulation as if Fi as a function manipulates. But, how some Fi users can utilize Fi to be manipulative, just like some Fe-users can have their own brand of manipulation.

This same thing happened with Simulatedworld's thread, where certain examples of Fi manifestation is taken to be a generalization on Fi as a whole.

Why does that keep happening? Using what logic?

Well yeah, I meant it as you were saying. That those manifestations would be perceived differently by the people doing them, other Fi users, and other types. I wasn't really attacking your stance, at all. I suppose I just wasn't being too clear? That post was mainly addressed to the entirity of the subject of Fi manipulation, not your post in particular. I actually didn't read it all, I was just taking that subject and making a general post.

And I actually agree with your frustration. People don't use nuance enough, they assume that when someone complains about a certain aspect or manifestation of a function, that they are insulting their character just because they use that function and what the person is saying doesn't resonate with them. There's not much logic in it.

 

[Laurie]

Manipulating someone to make them want you/rely on you is a way for an ENFP to make the relationship go the way they want to. It's scary to actually be in a relationship and let go of manipulation. What if you can't actually get someone without manipulation??!?!

To have healthy relationships an ENFP has to move past manipulation and let a relationship develop without it. It's difficult.

 

[Thalassa]

[

No. That's again your emotional response to it. No one is forcing shit on you. We have a right to express our opinion as do you. Do not whine about censoring my thought.

As well, I only spoke of two examples by two posters. And, read these clarifications I responded with, to Kalach. Carefully.

Don't whine about somebody disagreeing with your pretentious, Fe-biased wall of text. No one is censoring you. I'm not even into censorship. Don't be crazy. You're the one talking about mods here (and the inappropriateness of cartoon bananas elswhere).

It seems you guys say that you want to engage in "dialogue" but, not really, because the dialogue must be all in agreement (or agree with you guys within a few posts) and include good, fluffy vibes, otherwise, the other instantly becomes the bad bully. Grow a pair!

As if. You're the one crying censorship. ENTPs just don't like it when the majority of other people's opinion is STFU.

 

[Laurie]

You guys need to get a room.

 

[Qre:us]

Well yeah, I meant it as you were saying. That those manifestations would be perceived differently by the people doing them, other Fi users, and other types. I wasn't really attacking your stance, at all. I suppose I just wasn't being too clear? That post was mainly addressed to the entirity of the subject of Fi manipulation, not your post in particular. I actually didn't read it all, I was just taking that subject and making a general post.

And I actually agree with your frustration. People don't use nuance enough, they assume that when someone complains about a certain aspect or manifestation of a function, that they are insulting their character just because they use that function and what the person is saying doesn't resonate with them. There's not much logic in it.

And, on behalf of those people, whose usage of Fi I admire, such stance taken up by some of these Fi-users irk me, because they colour the perception, and variety of Fi manifestations.

Just like a select few repeat offenders are the ones who keep harping on Fi, the same few Fi users are the ones who respond and complain.

Those Fi users, who, in my opinion, use Fi admirably, hardly ever, or never respond to these threads. And, talking with a few of them, it's because they can't agree with how Fi is being presented by the few Fi-users who do respond, without fail, to the threads....so they just let the mess be.

It's sad.

Don't whine about somebody disagreeing with your pretentious, Fe-biased wall of text. No one is censoring you. I'm not even into censorship. Don't be crazy. You're the one talking about mods here (and the inappropriateness of cartoon bananas elswhere).

You need to follow conversations better. I responded with the talk of mods, AFTER YOU WHINED AND COMPLAINED about how this thread got hijacked....hence, the mod action as a solution to YOUR INITIAL complaint.

You complaining that people are judging you, and should "stop judging", stop coming to this thread to "attack"......is trying to censor our "judgements", which btw, are opinions, not judgements...but your histrionic Fi reads it as so.

You have a way of twisting shit that makes a contortionist look like a straight line.

As if. You're the one crying censorship. ENTPs just don't like it when the majority of other people's opinion is STFU.

Reading comprehension, learn it.

Don't be crazy.

Coming from you, this is

You're a joker without even trying. Oh, you!

 

[Thalassa]

You need to follow conversations better. I responded with the talk of mods, AFTER YOU WHINED AND COMPLAINED about how this thread got hijacked....hence, the mod action as a solution to YOUR INITIAL complaint.

You complaining that people are judging you, and should "stop judging", stop coming to this thread to "attack"......is trying to censor our "judgements", which btw, are opinions, not judgements...but your histrionic Fi reads it as so.

You have a way of twisting shit that makes a contortionist look like a straight line.

I'm being histrionic because I disagree with you and your methods, and expressing my distaste for your self-congratulatory posts? Who is twisting shit?

I'm not the only one complaining. Two other ENFPs agree with me. You just keep posting here to prove a point about how your asshattery won't be "censored." Apparently you think your opinion is the only opinion that counts.

 

[Moiety]

And, on behalf of those people, whose usage of Fi I admire, such stance taken up by some of these Fi-users irk me, because they colour the perception, and variety of Fi manifestations.

Just like a select few repeat offenders are the ones who keep harping on Fi, the same few Fi users are the ones who respond and complain.

Those Fi users, who, in my opinion, use Fi admirably, hardly ever, or never respond to these threads. And, talking with a few of them, it's because they can't agree with how Fi is being presented by the few Fi-users who do respond, without fail, to the threads....so they just let the mess be.

It's sad.

There's a mess?

 

[Amargith]

Enough. It would be nice to get back on topic.

Q, fwiw, I did always state 'I', I think when describing my version of Fi. If it is so far off from others, that's probably due to the individualistic nature of Fi, but I will refrain from commenting on Fi from here on. But at least let this thread go back to what it was meant to discuss, the INTJ-ENFP connection. Which, unfortunately means that Fi will be an element in it. Of course asking questions about that is valid, but this has gotten just out of hand and god knows that by now we should've learned that Fe vs Fi threads or Fi vs Ti threads don't get us anywhere.

 

[garbage]

I always enjoy when threads turn into Fi bitchfests and spiral downward terribly from there, because it gives us all free license to fuck around in them without consequence. Because, I mean, it's impossible to add value to them once they've tanked.

I think I'm changing to ISFP with BC.

This sounds good

 

[Little Linguist]

I've read a great deal of posts, and I have yet to see one reasonable explanation why this dynamic is 'disastrous.'

 

[Qre:us]

I'm being histrionic because I disagree with you and your methods, and expressing my distaste for your self-congratulatory posts? Who is twisting shit?

I'm not the only one complaining. Two other ENFPs agree with me. You just keep posting here to prove a point about how your asshattery won't be "censored." Apparently you think your opinion is the only opinion that counts.

I used the term histrionic because you've previously referred that you had a tendency to get like that.

I have a very histrionic, black sense of humor. Sure, I was pretty annoyed with Q at one point, but I was far from hurting myself, I assure you.

And, since I think these recent emotional outburst of yours are a joke - I'm guessing this is you again exercising your awesome histrionic humour.

Thank you!


I would ask for ENCORE, but I don't wanna lie.

Enough. It would be nice to get back on topic.

Q, fwiw, I did always state 'I', I think when describing my version of Fi. If it is so far off from others, that's probably due to the individualistic nature of Fi, but I will refrain from commenting on Fi from here on. But at least let this thread go back to what it was meant to discuss, the INTJ-ENFP connection. Which, unfortunately means that Fi will be an element in it. Of course asking questions about that is valid, but this has gotten just out of hand and god knows that by now we should've learned that Fe vs Fi threads or Fi vs Ti threads don't get us anywhere.

Yeah, and please don't stop posting about Fi. You have given quite a lot of insight to others (including myself). On this particular topic, I don't think I can ever gain understanding. Too far off my radar. But, other Fi topics, like, cooperation versus control, I have understood where you were coming from. So, thank you. Win some, lose some. Meh.

I just want other Fi-users to post their opinions on Fi. Not for the regulars to stop posting theirs. I don't know how that will happen, as before we reach that stage, a bitchfest occurs.

As well, in this thread, I limited the "Fi-manipulation" to the two example posters, and have been very conscious (even vocal) about not projecting it as a generalization of Fi. So, I not only agree, and have supported your use of "I".

Finally, this post of Amar's, agreed. Let this bullshit stop. I'm out. The thread is all yours.

 

[Thalassa]

I used the term histrionic because you've previously referred that you had a tendency to get like that.



And, since I think these recent emotional outburst of yours are a joke - I'm guessing this is you again exercising your awesome histrionic humour.

Thank you!


I would ask for ENCORE, but I don't wanna lie.

Typical ENTP response: making it all about you, making assumptions about the motives for other people's behavior, trying to turn stuff around on others with Fe manipulation, and finally losing all credibility what-so-ever by resorting to 100% ad hominem attacks.

I just thought it might be nice to get back on topic and take your personal issues with Fi elsewhere. It gets old. It gets boring.

 

[Poki]

Wow, this spiralled out of control.

Manipulating someone to make them want you/rely on you is a way for an ENFP to make the relationship go the way they want to. It's scary to actually be in a relationship and let go of manipulation. What if you can't actually get someone without manipulation??!?!

To have healthy relationships an ENFP has to move past manipulation and let a relationship develop without it. It's difficult.

So do you know you are making good ground when an ENFP shows you how they flirt with men, their pouty face, etc. ? Giving up their secrets. Was just an ENFP I knew for about a week. It was funny internally because she seemed to have a hard time holding the pouty face when she showed and explained it. Makes me percieve it as a real feeling when she did use it even though even she admited to use it as manipulation.

 

[SillySapienne]

I am unfortunately out with my sis, right now, but I'm saddened by how this thread has turned into a bash-fest.

One thing resonates with me, though.

It is blarringly evident, those of us who are Fi users.

Awhile back I started a thread: Fi, you only get it if you got it,

And, my oh, is that sentiment so sadly and beautifully exemplified, here.

 

[onemoretime]

Hmm...lets see...a handful of ENTPs wander into a thread about ENFP/INTJ relationships and turn it into a rambling ten-page dialogue about what they see wrong with "Fi manipulation." You weren't the one who compared it to date rape or emotional abuse, but it was referred to that a few pages back. So drop the "we" and insert "I" when you say judging isn't taking place.

You have a very strange definition of "judging". Apparently, analogies are judgmental, rather than illustrative.

SS, apparently because we can influence people's states of minds, by gently touching upon their emotions, it's considered manipulation. Personally, I don't care what it's called, it's a skill. It's not good or evil. It just is. It's the skill level of the user as well as the ethics they wield that make the difference imo. And as far as I'm concerned you can do the same with turning someone's head upside down (thought) or forcing someone to do something (physical action), for instance, so.. *shrug*

Fraud (thought) and assault (physical action) are crimes.

 

[Poki]

You have a very strange definition of "judging". Apparently, analogies are judgmental, rather than illustrative.



Fraud (thought) and assault (physical action) are crimes.

Criticism is judgemental, unless you accept it, but it doesnt mean you have to like it, but not criticize others because of it or judge them, or maybe if you criticize, then accept your not really judging.

Or could it be that "judging" is a feeling and we all feel judged in a different manner and it is actually a subjective thing that people are trying to turn objective. Gotta bring reality in to this "abstract" conversation.

 

[Thalassa]

You have a very strange definition of "judging". Apparently, analogies are judgmental, rather than illustrative.



Fraud (thought) and assault (physical action) are crimes.

Because, of course, you calling touching people's emotions and playing games with a romantic partner assault and thought crimes is not at all judgemental.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Manipulating someone to make them want you/rely on you is a way for an ENFP to make the relationship go the way they want to. It's scary to actually be in a relationship and let go of manipulation. What if you can't actually get someone without manipulation??!?! To have healthy relationships an ENFP has to move past manipulation and let a relationship develop without it. It's difficult.

So true. An ENFP has to be comfortable in his/her own skin to be able to risk not manipulating.

I have no problem tailoring my approach. This is a natural strength that ENFPs have. But tailoring one's approach is different that completely denying who you really are so that you can become who the other person wants you to be. That is the difference between manipulation and boundaries. And, the first time this ENFP did it was the most terrifying and awesomely wonderful experience.

 

[sculpting]

Dude this thread totally dovetailed.

On the crackberry so can't read all posts.

Anyways to get the thread back on topic:

Intjs-are you aware of how you test people who show a romantic interest in you? I had no idea how common this was. Everybody says you guys do this.

Are you aware you are doing it?