Why is the British academia so snob?

[Blackmail!]

Greetings!

As a university teacher working in a laboratory (in France), we are currently trying to establish a partnership between several prominent universities, a partnership that will focus on the exchange of doctorate and post doctorate students between Europe and Japan.

Of course, we benefit from European Commission grants (hence my frequent travels to Brussels).

We are required to aim for excellency in higher education, and hence, we have already shaped strong ties and bonds through different exchange programs with the TU München (German's best university), the Politecnico Milano (Italy's best university), TU Delft (Netherlands best technical university), the ENS-Ulm (France second best university), and the Todai (Japan's best university).

---

We have also established ties with several American campus (mostly the Pennstate, Georgiatech, and Columbia), but through different independent programs.

---

Unfortunately, there's a country with which it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to make any exchange program, and it is the UK.

It's an enigma. Everybody, whether we are German, Italian, Dutch, Swedish, Korean or Japanese is complaining about them.:steam:

This week, I've tried to contact several acquaintances in Cambridge, Oxford, and the UCL, and each time, they just take a far away glance, and show no interest at all into our partnership proposals. One teacher in Cambridge even dared to say we're not "good enough" for them.
Furthermore, when you check the prerequisites a foreign PhD student would need to fill in Cambridge, it's simply beyond understanding. It's simply ludicrous, like if they would try to scare away as much (non English-speaking) foreigners as possible! For instance, our students are required to fluently write English far better than the average British student (minimal ranking 7.5/9, while the ordinary English university student scores 6.8/9).

The consequence is that everytime they make us the courtesy to sign a limited partnership (at least, outside the USA or the Commonwealth), their students can come freely to visit us, while ours are almost always denied to do so in return.

In comparison with the British universities, even the Ivy league represents very welcoming institutions: it's far easier to sign a contract with the MIT, Berkeley or Harvard than with them.

---

Anyway.

Could somebody here explain why they behave so? Why do these guys at Cambridge, Oxford or the UCL still think they are the center of the World?

What is wrong with them?

 

[tinkerbell]

OK you've picked 2 of the countries best uniniversities, both with histories as old as lord knows what.

It would be the equivelent of you trying to establish an exchange programme with Harvard.

Try some of the lesser universities, I went to business school at Middlesex, they did a ton of exchange stuff....

The problem I thinkis your own making, lower your sights a little, the world and his wife wants to dealw ith Oxford and Cambrige, unles there is a whole lot of something in it for them why would they bother?

 

[matmos]

Have you tried going through British Council France, l'agence culturelle britannique en France ?

 

[Blackmail!]

OK you've picked 2 of the countries best uniniversities, both with histories as old as lord knows what.

It would be the equivelent of you trying to establish an exchange programme with Harvard.

Try some of the lesser universities, I went to business school at Middlesex, they did a ton of exchange stuff....

The problem I thinkis your own making, lower your sights a little, the world and his wife wants to dealw ith Oxford and Cambrige, unles there is a whole lot of something in it for them why would they bother?

As I told you, it's a EC-sponsored program that already aims for excellency in higher education, and one of its goal is to make a lot of publicity for Europe. And to tell you the truth, many of our partners already provide far better courses that the ones you may find in Cambridge in Oxford: they're not the center of the world.

For instance the Todai is the best university in eastern Asia.

University of Tokyo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The University of Tokyo (東京大学, Tōkyō daigaku), abbreviated as Todai (東大, Tōdai)[3], is a major research university located in Tokyo, Japan. The University has 10 faculties with a total of around 30,000 students, 2,100 of whom are foreign. Its five campuses are in Hongō, Komaba, Kashiwa, Shirokane and Nakano. It is considered to be one of the most prestigious universities in Japan, it ranks as the highest in Asia and third in the world in 2009 according to Global University Ranking."

---

And in the ENS-Ulm, you have the best department of Mathematics of the world. You have 12 laureates of the Nobel prize and 9 recipients of the Field medals that teach there. Do we really look like wild, uneducated barbarians?

---

But still, they treat us as "undesirable". They do exchange programs almost exclusively with English-speaking countries, and ruthlessly disregard the others.

Once again, and since you mention them, signing an agreement with Harvard is a far easier task.

 

[runvardh]

Once you've been around for a certain amount of centuries and belong to what was recently the largest empire in the world; most people end up having to look at your nose hairs more than your eyes. That, of course coming from a citizen of one of their commonwealth nations.

Edit: just a thought... "Keep your chin up, you make a better target." - Confucious

 

[tinkerbell]

The issue is that you are picking the coutnries two most prestigious in our country, one of them the oldest in the English speaking world, and then you think the world owes you a living...

Both of thos particular universities are inundating with offerings of fundings from all over the world, so technically speaking you are likely to be rather small fry, even if you are touting an EEC branding.... Try a lesser university where you ahve a fighting change of being taken seriously.

There are several universities that have specalist courses that are held in higher regards in their own right.

Maybe try St Andrews, you may fair better north of the border

 

[Spamtar]

I was a little kid when I went to (university name self edited out) when my Dad went for his post doctorate there. He earned his way there legitimately. However it was my understanding that for a half a million pounds "endowment" they would have accepted me regardless of my GPA due to my fathers alumni status.

Consider the option working via an English national alumni to lobby (bribe) them if that tactic is not below you/your organization...less morally dark half measures along this line may suffice as well.

 

[tcda]

You just added "British" and "academia" together - do you really need to ask why "snob" is the result?

 

[tinkerbell]

in fairness you are chasing after the biggest global brands in academia, the question is why?

Possibly because it will add a whole bunch of credibility - they say you've not earned it (paid for it)... it's their brand name after all, they have rights to select who they sponsor....

Try aiming less high at the brand snobbery, you may fair better with Warwick, which has serious credientials or another less prestigious school

 

[Blackmail!]

Maybe try St Andrews, you may fair better north of the border

Excellent suggestion, even if I know nobody there.

Nonetheless, I will try it immediately. Let's see if the Scots deserve their reputation of friendliness towards Continental Europe.

 

[Andy]

You were too slow - the chinese got there first. British universities have hundreds of international students from there.

 

[runvardh]

Doesn't one of them have a long dead knighted scientist as one of their alumni? I forget which one...

 

[Blackmail!]

in fairness you are chasing after the biggest global brands in academia, the question is why?

Possibly because it will add a whole bunch of credibility - they say you've not earned it (paid for it)... it's their brand name after all, they have rights to select who they sponsor....

Once again, it is a EC-sponsored partnership program with universities of the Far East. The goal is to promote excellency in Europe's educational system, and to attract some of the best Japanese and Korean PhD candidates.

We have to select at least 6 European universities. We already have a German, a French, an Italian, a Swedish and a Dutch partner. Most of them already showed their enthusiasm to be part of this program.

It would be logical to include a British one, at least if our friends from across the Channel do consider they still belong to Europe...

 

[Blackmail!]

You were too slow - the chinese got there first. British universities have hundreds of international students from there.

As a matter of fact, British universities have the most tenuous link with Continental China of all Europe, or almost. It's only Hong Kong and Singapore that saves them, that could give you that illusion.

For instance, France's universities accomodate twice the number of Chinese students than you would find in the UK. It's the same with Netherlands and Germany.

Two years ago, we had already contacted the UCL to be part of another specific exchange program with China, and they almost ruined the whole process because their dean wouldn't understand where to sign application papers for the EC.

---

Most of the exchange programmes the British universities have, are specifically designed to attract fluent English-speaking students only.

It's exactly like if they lived in another century and believed their vast colonial Empire still existed.

 

[runvardh]

As a matter of fact, British universities have the most tenuous link with Continental China of all Europe, or almost. It's only Hong Kong and Singapore that saves them, that could give you that illusion.

I was just wondering if that were the case.

Most of the exchange programmes the British universities have, are specifically designed to attract fluent English-speaking students only.

It's exactly like if they lived in another century and believed their vast colonial Empire still existed.

Parts of it still does, but only in ceremony.

 

[Andy]

As a matter of fact, British universities have the most tenuous link with Continental China of all Europe, or almost. It's only Hong Kong and Singapore that saves them, that could give you that illusion.

For instance, France's universities accomodate twice the number of Chinese students than you would find in the UK. It's the same with Netherlands and Germany.

Two years ago, we had already contacted the UCL to be part of another specific exchange program with China, and they almost ruined the whole process because their dean wouldn't understand where to sign application papers for the EC.

---

Most of the exchange programmes the British universities have, are specifically designed to attract fluent English-speaking students only.

It's exactly like if they lived in another century and believed their vast colonial Empire still existed.

Where did you get that information from? Any links we could see? I ask, because in my own experience British universities have a large number of chinese students. For example, when I was at the university of Birmingham, I had a shared lecture with the chemical engineering department, and there a lot of chinese students there. I don't have exact statistics, but I only met 1 from hong kong and 1 from singapore.

It wouldn't at all surprise me if the English universities were slow to get in contact with the chinese (Britain seems slow to do everything) but from where I was sitting, it certainly looked they had embraced the concept with enthusiasmand were looking for more. I think this change of heart must have been cash powered. From talking to my lecturers, I gathered that international students had a huge monetry value attached to them. One chinese student brough them as much cash as about 10 home students, due to the huge fees. Most of my chinese friends told me that the only reson they could afford to be in the country was government sponsorship.

From talking with some of the french and german, I gather that there is something of a different culture in european universities. Degrees take longer - I was surprised by how long some people would stay in university. I got the general impression that there was less of a money making air. British universities have almost become "teaching and research businesses" these days.

 

[tinkerbell]

I'm not saying don't use a UK uni, just dont' delude yourself that the two oldest Uni, with the biggest reps are going to bite your hand off.

Its the equivelent of you asking Nike to sponcer your sports day.

Try a high quality Uni who are less brand focused. I've named a few about

 

[Blackmail!]

Where did you get that information from? Any links we could see? I ask, because in my own experience British universities have a large number of chinese students. For example, when I was at the university of Birmingham, I had a shared lecture with the chemical engineering department, and there a lot of chinese students there. I don't have exact statistics, but I only met 1 from hong kong and 1 from singapore.

Ask the office of international exchanges in Tongji, Jiaotong, and Tsinghua...

It wouldn't at all surprise me if the English universities were slow to get in contact with the chinese (Britain seems slow to do everything) but from where I was sitting, it certainly looked they had embraced the concept with enthusiasmand were looking for more.

That's possible. I remember for instance we signed our first real agreement with Tongji as soon as 1995. While Cambridge only began to bother about them in 2004.

Nonetheless, you have to consider the fact there's A LOT of Chinese students abroad. Even if they already seem to appear are in great numbers around you, you should imagine that elsewhere, they are even more numerous!

In the module where I teach, there's always a few Chinese students each year: they're a familiar sight.

I think this change of heart must have been cash powered. From talking to my lecturers, I gathered that international students had a huge monetry value attached to them. One chinese student brough them as much cash as about 10 home students, due to the huge fees. Most of my chinese friends told me that the only reson they could afford to be in the country was government sponsorship.

From talking with some of the french and german, I gather that there is something of a different culture in european universities. Degrees take longer - I was surprised by how long some people would stay in university. I got the general impression that there was less of a money making air. British universities have almost become "teaching and research businesses" these days.

You might be correct about that.

 

[Sniffles]

It would be logical to include a British one, at least if our friends from across the Channel do consider they still belong to Europe...

Didn't they determine long ago that wasn't the case?

 

[runvardh]

Got bored, but admittedly I was a little lazy about the search (Wikipeda):

Technische Universität München
- Founded in 1868

Politecnico di Milano
- Founded in 1863

Technische Universiteit Delft
- Founded in 1842

École Normale Supérieure-Ulm
- Founded in 1794

Tōkyō Daigaku
- Founded in 1877

Massachusetts Institute of Technology
- Founded in 1861 (opened 1865)

University of California, Berkeley
- Founded in 1868

Harvard University
- Founded in 1636

University of Cambridge
- Founded c. 1209

University of Oxford
- Unknown, teaching existed since 1096

University College London
- Founded in 1826


There's brand, then there's reputation, then there's straight up legend..........