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And if he isnt risen...

Avocado

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Everyone has to seek their own path in terms of religious convictions or moral philosophies. One thing I have learned over the years (as a Christian) is that preaching bible verses mean NOTHING to people who do not know Jesus. Bible verses are meant for all to live by but only for followers to understand. How could we possibly expect someone who has not personally experienced the feeling of the Holy Spirit to understand the word of God? We can't.

I try to just share what I feel is in my heart, from my personal experience or understanding. Or even the things I've learned. That's why I attached the video I did. That's not to say that we can't learn from other philosophies. There are actually a lot of parallels between Buddha's teaching and God's. So I think there are a lot of universal truths. But, one must wonder where these convictions of the conscience derive from. For me, I believe it's the way God created us. To inherently have an idea of what's right and wrong in our everyday lives.
I look at other eusocial animals like ants and gorillas, and I see that people and these other animals usually treat others well because that is the best way to continue the species--which social animals care about. When there is a mutation which prohibits animals from acting out eusocial behavior, the other social animals of the same species exterminate that creature. Humans are just unusually technologically advanced eusocial animals. We treat each other well because it is either in our best interest to do so, or in rare cases, conviction. Everything can be made objective if one defines the variables.
 

wool

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Preaching bible verses mean NOTHING to people who do not know Jesus.

That depends entirely on whether or not a person's heart is receptive to the truth, the Spirit of which, calls everyone.

Maybe just a type that wants to learn about others and be part of the community, versus deciding this has suddenly become fertile territory for proselytizing and promoting your particular interpretation of your particular holy scripture to the exclusion of whatever else?

You can either share/discuss ideas, or you can preach at people / scatterbomb the forum with Bible verses, and most of us aren't interested in the latter.

Hint: talk about your own personal experience more.

No feedback at all?
 

Blacksheep2017

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I look at other eusocial animals like ants and gorillas, and I see that people and these other animals usually treat others well because that is the best way to continue the species--which social animals care about. When there is a mutation which prohibits animals from acting out eusocial behavior, the other social animals of the same species exterminate that creature. Humans are just unusually technologically advanced eusocial animals. We treat each other well because it is either in our best interest to do so, or in rare cases, conviction. Everything can be made objective if one defines the variables.

Well, humans are the advanced species, I'm sure you agree. Then why war? Why serial killers? Why narcissism? As a Christian, this is where we believe evil and sin enter the picture. There are murderers who admit what they did was wrong, but they don't feel remorse about it? Where does the very essence of evil come from? When we can know that something isn't right yet do it anyway. These are the questions that keep me seeking.
 

Avocado

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Well, humans are the advanced species, I'm sure you agree. Then why war? Why serial killers? Why narcissism? As a Christian, this is where we believe evil and sin enter the picture. There are murderers who admit what they did was wrong, but they don't feel remorse about it? Where does the very essence of evil come from? When we can know that something isn't right yet do it anyway. These are the questions that keep me seeking.

Those people are mutants who threaten the social order.
 

Avocado

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But what causes the mutations over time? Isn't evolution about the advancement of species over time, not regression?

Change over time. In antisocial species the biggest fish in the pond gets to reproduce. A negative mutation in one of those would be something that makes the organism weaker. In Eusocial animals, negative mutations are those that harm the group. Humans are basically herd animals, so we turn on those that threaten our social order. Hopefully we can treat these genetic mutations one day using CRISPR technology.
 

Blacksheep2017

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Change over time. In antisocial species the biggest fish in the pond gets to reproduce. A negative mutation in one of those would be something that makes the organism weaker. In Eusocial animals, negative mutations are those that harm the group. Humans are basically herd animals, so we turn on those that threaten our social order. Hopefully we can treat these genetic mutations one day using CRISPR technology.

While that sounds like an easy answer for genetic mutations related to disease in the physical form, it doesn't answer or fix the issue with problematic learned behaviors. A lot of brain development in children is molded by the experiences they have early in life. There are multiple studies on the effects of children raised by depressed mothers for instance. And you can't just snip away some genetic data that makes someone predispositioned to depression. That would essentially eradicate art and music, which is usually most compelling when coming from emotions of that nature. The point is, the brain is highly too complex for scientific intervention of that level. Scientists can't even explain why people dream but they're going to perfect the human race with genetic manipulation? That's a far reach for me. I don't have that much confidence in mankind. Let's take care of the increasing cases of cancer before we venture down the road of perfectionism.

I think it takes more faith to not believe in God. When I look at the intricacies of the world, I can't help but believe that a divine creator had His hand in all that we know. The sheer coincidence of our existence on a planet like Earth where no other planet compares.
 

Avocado

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While that sounds like an easy answer for genetic mutations related to disease in the physical form, it doesn't answer or fix the issue with problematic learned behaviors. A lot of brain development in children is molded by the experiences they have early in life. There are multiple studies on the effects of children raised by depressed mothers for instance. And you can't just snip away some genetic data that makes someone predispositioned to depression. That would essentially eradicate art and music, which is usually most compelling when coming from emotions of that nature. The point is, the brain is highly too complex for scientific intervention of that level. Scientists can't even explain why people dream but they're going to perfect the human race with genetic manipulation? That's a far reach for me. I don't have that much confidence in mankind. Let's take care of the increasing cases of cancer before we venture down the road of perfectionism.

I think it takes more faith to not believe in God. When I look at the intricacies of the world, I can't help but believe that a divine creator had His hand in all that we know. The sheer coincidence of our existence on a planet like Earth where no other planet compares.

There are many stars out there. Many of those stars have planets, and many of those are earth like. Besides, when most people talk about a creator, they like to tie it into christianity somehow. That is a large leap of logic from deism to christianity. The whole god issue seems pretty anthropocentric.
 

Blacksheep2017

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There are many stars out there. Many of those stars have planets, and many of those are earth like. Besides, when most people talk about a creator, they like to tie it into christianity somehow. That is a large leap of logic from deism to christianity. The whole god issue seems pretty anthropocentric.

I don't want to venture into my thoughts on that because I feel like we're getting waaaaaaaay off point to the original post. I'll end with this though: I totally respect you. I think you're intelligent, well spoken and a respectful debater. The pre-motherhood me couldn't resist such an enlightening discussion and trade of opinions but I have spent the better half of the day playing with my daughter with my phone in my hand! So I'm gonna move on to other topics! :hippie:
 

Coriolis

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Satan has been quite successful in convincing humanity that he doesn't even exist and that there is no need to be saved.
You didn't even answer my questions. You are going to have to do much better than this if you have any hope of counteracting such success on Satan's part.

Jesus Christ was a real man. Historians far and wide believe this to be fact. I personally am humbled enough to believe that people with PHDs in theology are probably more knowledgeable than I and if they can pursue such lengthy studies on text that many deem "outrageous claims", then there must be some merit there. Also, keep in mind that we are human. We are not God. So our level of understanding is inferior. That's why God advised us to not lean on our understanding of things. We are sinners living in a tainted world. Our ideology will be naturally tainted as well.

Some people need science. I get it. This video may be able to help you in determining the authenticity of Christ's death and resurrection. As humans, we can't fathom that this extraordinary event actually happened because we see Christ as merely another human being. But we forget that he was God in the flesh. Capable of far more miracles and supernatural feats than us.
I don't believe facts. I accept those facts supported by sufficient evidence. I save belief for those things that cannot be substantiated in such a way. Having a PhD in theology does not innoculate one against confirmation bias or plain wishful thinking. I evaluate their claims, like anyone else's, based on the evidence they present, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, at least if they are of a historical or scientific nature.

God endowed us with the ability to think, reason, problem-solve, and generally figure things out. By your reasoning, he needn't have bothered. Just another temptation to tantalize us with so we can get slapped down for using it. Eve and the apple, over and over again.

Everyone needs science. It is how we understand the physical world. A similar case can be made that everyone needs spirituality. It is how we understand the world beyond the physical. Problems arise, though, when we use the wrong tool for the job. We shouldn't ask scientists to tell us why we are even here. We should likewise not ask our spiritual leaders, including our holy books, things like how old is the earth. I cannot accept the historical veracity of the resurrection, or even the divinity of Jesus. I certainly can accept things Jesus came to teach us.

I'm referencing Christ specifically. Not them. None of them were crucified and resurrected to pay for everyone's sin, were they? Was that not the biggest event to happen in the Christian faith or the world? The single most miraculous thing that no one else was able to do? Jesus far outdid anything that apostales did. Peter walked on water because he saw Jesus walking on water. He told him "if it's you Lord, ask me to come to you" and Jesus replied "come". I don't know if Peter himself could have walked on water at any time for any reason. It was this interaction with Jesus in that moment that made it possible.
Perhaps you can explain to me how Jesus' death and resurrection "pays for" our sin. Wool seemed to describe it as a great battle between God and Satan for the souls of humanity, but would not confirm or refute my understanding of what she meant.

Everyone has to seek their own path in terms of religious convictions or moral philosophies. One thing I have learned over the years (as a Christian) is that preaching bible verses mean NOTHING to people who do not know Jesus. Bible verses are meant for all to live by but only for followers to understand. How could we possibly expect someone who has not personally experienced the feeling of the Holy Spirit to understand the word of God? We can't.
What do you mean by "know Jesus"? Know him like you do? Know him like this or that authority on the Bible? If the way I see Jesus is different from yours, will you tell me I don't know him at all? If I say I understand the Bible as well as the next person, but don't share your perspective, will you just say that means I don't really understand it? This is the kind of circular reasoning and doublespeak that makes it very frustrating to discuss religion with some Christians (probably some of other faiths as well, but I haven't encountered many of them yet).

I try to just share what I feel is in my heart, from my personal experience or understanding. Or even the things I've learned. That's why I attached the video I did. That's not to say that we can't learn from other philosophies. There are actually a lot of parallels between Buddha's teaching and God's. So I think there are a lot of universal truths. But, one must wonder where these convictions of the conscience derive from. For me, I believe it's the way God created us. To inherently have an idea of what's right and wrong in our everyday lives.
I agree with much of this. These ideas, and of course God, are truly universal. It is for this reason that I cannot believe Christianity has a monopoly on spiritual truth, moral soundness, or connection to God. The underlined, above, is exactly right IME. Each person must seek their own path, but although these paths may be different, they all lead to the same place. All we can do is share what is in our heart, from our personal experience and understanding. That, and give the example of how we lead our lives.

Well, humans are the advanced species, I'm sure you agree. Then why war? Why serial killers? Why narcissism? As a Christian, this is where we believe evil and sin enter the picture. There are murderers who admit what they did was wrong, but they don't feel remorse about it? Where does the very essence of evil come from? When we can know that something isn't right yet do it anyway. These are the questions that keep me seeking.
But what causes the mutations over time? Isn't evolution about the advancement of species over time, not regression?
Much of what we readily label "evil" seems to be associated with mental illness: psychopathy, likely other disorders. Just look at how many mass shooters in recent years had a history of mental illness, often untreated. Now scientists can gain insight into physiological differences in the brains of such folks vs. the rest of the species. Sure, these particular features have no apparent benefit in the evolutionary process (unless to curb ballooning population?). One must remember, however, that advancement of the species as a whole does not require the advancement of every individual. Many individuals will take what eventually (on a very long time scale) prove to be evolutionary blind alleys.

I think it takes more faith to not believe in God. When I look at the intricacies of the world, I can't help but believe that a divine creator had His hand in all that we know. The sheer coincidence of our existence on a planet like Earth where no other planet compares.
Indeed - the notion that there is no God is as much a matter of faith as any religion. The only logically defensible position is agnosticism, since we truly cannot know. But the highlighted is an unsupportable claim. We cannot know what lies across the vastness of the universe, much/most of which is beyond the range of our most sensitive and sophisticated equipment - at least today.
 

Blacksheep2017

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You didn't even answer my questions. You are going to have to do much better than this if you have any hope of counteracting such success on Satan's part.


I don't believe facts. I accept those facts supported by sufficient evidence. I save belief for those things that cannot be substantiated in such a way. Having a PhD in theology does not innoculate one against confirmation bias or plain wishful thinking. I evaluate their claims, like anyone else's, based on the evidence they present, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, at least if they are of a historical or scientific nature.

God endowed us with the ability to think, reason, problem-solve, and generally figure things out. By your reasoning, he needn't have bothered. Just another temptation to tantalize us with so we can get slapped down for using it. Eve and the apple, over and over again.

Everyone needs science. It is how we understand the physical world. A similar case can be made that everyone needs spirituality. It is how we understand the world beyond the physical. Problems arise, though, when we use the wrong tool for the job. We shouldn't ask scientists to tell us why we are even here. We should likewise not ask our spiritual leaders, including our holy books, things like how old is the earth. I cannot accept the historical veracity of the resurrection, or even the divinity of Jesus. I certainly can accept things Jesus came to teach us.


Perhaps you can explain to me how Jesus' death and resurrection "pays for" our sin. Wool seemed to describe it as a great battle between God and Satan for the souls of humanity, but would not confirm or refute my understanding of what she meant.


What do you mean by "know Jesus"? Know him like you do? Know him like this or that authority on the Bible? If the way I see Jesus is different from yours, will you tell me I don't know him at all? If I say I understand the Bible as well as the next person, but don't share your perspective, will you just say that means I don't really understand it? This is the kind of circular reasoning and doublespeak that makes it very frustrating to discuss religion with some Christians (probably some of other faiths as well, but I haven't encountered many of them yet).


I agree with much of this. These ideas, and of course God, are truly universal. It is for this reason that I cannot believe Christianity has a monopoly on spiritual truth, moral soundness, or connection to God. The underlined, above, is exactly right IME. Each person must seek their own path, but although these paths may be different, they all lead to the same place. All we can do is share what is in our heart, from our personal experience and understanding. That, and give the example of how we lead our lives.



Much of what we readily label "evil" seems to be associated with mental illness: psychopathy, likely other disorders. Just look at how many mass shooters in recent years had a history of mental illness, often untreated. Now scientists can gain insight into physiological differences in the brains of such folks vs. the rest of the species. Sure, these particular features have no apparent benefit in the evolutionary process (unless to curb ballooning population?). One must remember, however, that advancement of the species as a whole does not require the advancement of every individual. Many individuals will take what eventually (on a very long time scale) prove to be evolutionary blind alleys.


Indeed - the notion that there is no God is as much a matter of faith as any religion. The only logically defensible position is agnosticism, since we truly cannot know. But the highlighted is an unsupportable claim. We cannot know what lies across the vastness of the universe, much/most of which is beyond the range of our most sensitive and sophisticated equipment - at least today.

I'm not even going to attempt to exchange dialogue with you. You're obviously on a higher level. Much more intelligent than I and others.
 

Avocado

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Jesus Christ was a real man. Historians far and wide believe this to be fact. I personally am humbled enough to believe that people with PHDs in theology are probably more knowledgeable than I and if they can pursue such lengthy studies on text that many deem "outrageous claims", then there must be some merit there. Also, keep in mind that we are human. We are not God. So our level of understanding is inferior. That's why God advised us to not lean on our understanding of things. We are sinners living in a tainted world. Our ideology will be naturally tainted as well.

Some people need science. I get it. This video may be able to help you in determining the authenticity of Christ's death and resurrection. As humans, we can't fathom that this extraordinary event actually happened because we see Christ as merely another human being. But we forget that he was God in the flesh. Capable of far more miracles and supernatural feats than us.


I was raised in the Jehovah's Witnesses. They are very different from standard christians in their mythology.
 

wool

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I'm not even going to attempt to exchange dialogue with you. You're obviously on a higher level. Much more intelligent than I and others.

You are a much stronger person than I.

You didn't even answer my questions. You are going to have to do much better than this if you have any hope of counteracting such success on Satan's part.

I tried my best and was patient with you, but I cannot force you to open your heart.

Take heed, Coriolis, the pride you hold for your own intellect is a noose around your neck. A gift can just as easily be a curse.
 

wool

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Jehovah's witnesses are not Christian, they are a cult. No wonder you have so much hatred for religion. I feel sorry for you.
 

Avocado

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Jehovah's witnesses are not Christian, they are a cult. No wonder you have so much hatred for religion. I feel sorry for you.

It is a cult both sociologically and theologically. High control with different myths than mainstrean christians.
 

SearchingforPeace

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I feel it very necessary to add that organized religion is a tool for growth, when used effectively. The structure is designed to support and liberate and elevate. But for too many, it has been a prison, unfortunately, so many rebel against it and attack, rather than just moving on to explore what else could help them.

I fully believe that only through the Savior can we be redeemed. However, I know that I do not know everything. All knowledge can be useful and much of that knowledge and wisdom comes from very different sources, including those outside of Christianity.

As such, rather than me saying there is no value to other religious or spiritual or philosophical practices outside of Christianity, I say there is great potential value from such. I fully believe that those who embrace the quest for self improvement will benefit from a variety of things.

Everyone should seek truth and enlightenment wherever they can and don't reject something merely because it seems odd or different.

Personally, I have had many profound spiritual experiences in my life. Many occurred in religious practice. But others have happened outside my religious practice or just in nature. Sitting on top of a mountain as the sun rises, after hiking all night, looking down 5,000 feet to the valley below, can be a profound spiritual experience.

Ultimately, everyone should seek personal enlightenment and improvement. Not everyone will take the same path, but they can benefit from whatever path they take. All truth adds to the overall Truth, but we are often unable to see it or understand it due to our own limitations. However, Christ is the one final path, the narrow way. Seeking Jesus is the purpose of life and provides the greatest rewards.

Seeking Jesus is an individual quest, which is why so many people raised in a church struggle to accept the imposition of the religion. Too many are not allowed to explore and find for themselves. Yet the self-exploration and self-discover is necessary and any outward imposition is counterproductive.
 

Mole

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Jehovah's witnesses are not Christian, they are a cult. No wonder you have so much hatred for religion. I feel sorry for you.

The Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse found that 1,006 complaints of child sexual abuse were made against Jehovah's Witnesses and not one complaint was referred to the police. In Australia this is a criminal offence. But the other day I spoke to the Jehovah's Witnesses at their stall in the street, and they just passed this finding off as though it was of no account, and I guess in their ideology it isn't'
 
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