[Fe] The abyss of inferior Ti

[existence]

I know when dealing with my ex the most frustrating thing for myself, a dom Ti, is her inconsistent lack of logic to get her way. She will use logical reasoning only to at a later point turn it around and do what she was against because all of a sudden her situation changed. So the logic used against me no longer applies. Her reasoning and logic is very goal driven as opposed to big picture driven. It almost like it's an attempt to control external logic. With certain types they are very good and it works, but dom Ti can see through it. The only thing is that I swear she believes this logic and not quite as manipulative as it sounds. Almost like a combination of F and T cause the logic to become what she believes. I don't know. Just a bit of what I see.

I am just speaking from my experience with ENFJ. She always said I was her voice of reason because she had to much of a fight or speak before thinking.

I am purely speaking through info only. No emotions or anything behind it. I am curious to see how it is from inside a dom Fe. I still have to deal with my ex because of my son and I am always looking for better ways to communicate because ours is very hit or miss. It's like tossing marbles into a field of land mines. Both ways, not just her blowing up. We just blow up in different ways.

I haven't read the whole thread yet but I want to answer this, from experience I find that as much communication as possible and needed is paramount with such opposites as ISTP and ENFJ. This is rule #1.

Then over time the land mine seems to clear up, as there will be more of a logical picture of why the things happen (this is from my own POV, I don't know the ENFJ POV). What I do is just tell them how I see the situation, via a very logical explanation and I make them talk to me too. Then, a lot of analysis from my part.... where I take into account the Fe as some sort of logical facts too. Otherwise this analysis wouldn't work! Over time less of that analysing is needed, of course. And then I discuss with them more and find a solution. But yes it's complicated sometimes Now the info on this inferior Ti stuff may be helping me too.

And yes, I experience the exact same about their inferior Ti as you describe. Yes it's like a bit of a mask of external logic, I liked that observation of yours. I assume that's due to things being coloured by extraversion.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Convoluted Logic
In the grip of inferior Thinking, the Extraverted Feeling types’ attempts at logical analysis take the form of categorical, all-or-none judgments that are often based on irrelevant data. A highly idiosyncratic “logical” model may be developed internally, but the resulting conclusions may violate good logic.

This one statement from the larger quote stood out to me, because this is something that tends to happen to most human beings when subjected to stress, fear, and anxiety. You can see it happen often in arguments. People take the issue down to a binary proposition with both sides of the concept taken to an extreme. It is like a lower resolution of reality. I think it happens because under stress people need clarity and the flood of chemicals in the brain make it more difficult to achieve clarity, so concepts are made simpler in order to provide conclusion, clarity, and certitude. I never connected it to a misuse of the Ti function. This one point may have broader causes than just malfunctioning Ti, but either way it is interesting.

 

[Poki]

I haven't read the whole thread yet but I want to answer this, from experience I find that as much communication as possible and needed is paramount with such opposites as ISTP and ENFJ. This is rule #1.

Then over time the land mine seems to clear up, as there will be more of a logical picture of why the things happen (this is from my own POV, I don't know the ENFJ POV). What I do is just tell them how I see the situation, via a very logical explanation and I make them talk to me too. Then, a lot of analysis from my part.... where I take into account the Fe as some sort of logical facts too. Otherwise this analysis wouldn't work! Over time less of that analysing is needed, of course. And then I discuss with them more and find a solution. But yes it's complicated sometimes Now the info on this inferior Ti stuff may be helping me too.

And yes, I experience the exact same about their inferior Ti as you describe. Yes it's like a bit of a mask of external logic, I liked that observation of yours. I assume that's due to things being coloured by extraversion.

The best way I have found when these misunderstanding is to say screw it and drop it. The further we dig the further we get into a deep dark whole. My objective analysis spins her in circles when it's about "us" when it's about others it's ok. I am actually to the point where I say something, she lashes out and I hang up or disappear, give her time to process, listen to her 5 minute bitch fest about me hanging up, possibly say when you have a solution and not a bitch fest call me back and hang up again. Very calm voice, I just don't want to hear it, It's not any help to the situation, I already know my screw up that caused it. If you can't help your of no use to me right now. Things are getting better, but it's like I have to grab her hair and drag her through the mud kicking and screaming to get somewhere.

That's our bad moments, not every moment. We can accomplish a crap ton together, it's like mixing 2 extremely competent people that work awesome together as long as everything goes "as planned" which luckily I don't really plan much, but I don't really put plans as important either.

 

[existence]

This one statement from the larger quote stood out to me, because this is something that tends to happen to most human beings when subjected to stress, fear, and anxiety. You can see it happen often in arguments. People take the issue down to a binary proposition with both sides of the concept taken to an extreme. It is like a lower resolution of reality. I think it happens because under stress people need clarity and the flood of chemicals in the brain make it more difficult to achieve clarity, so concepts are made simpler in order to provide conclusion, clarity, and certitude. I never connected it to a misuse of the Ti function. This one point may have broader causes than just malfunctioning Ti, but either way it is interesting.

No, no. The thing you quoted explicitly mentions judgments that are based on irrelevant data resulting in conclusions that actually are illogical. The thing you are referring to is different from that, that simply means less new information is being really taken in. I most certainly don't just see one single simplified down concept even when stressed out, it's still inside a larger logical picture. At least that's how I experience it. You as someone with lower Ti may experience it differently.

 

[existence]

The best way I have found when these misunderstanding is to say screw it and drop it. The further we dig the further we get into a deep dark whole. My objective analysis spins her in circles when it's about "us" when it's about others it's ok. I am actually to the point where I say something, she lashes out and I hang up or disappear, give her time to process, listen to her 5 minute bitch fest about me hanging up, possibly say when you have a solution and not a bitch fest call me back and hang up again. Very calm voice, I just don't want to hear it, It's not any help to the situation, I already know my screw up that caused it. If you can't help your of no use to me right now. Things are getting better, but it's like I have to grab her hair and drag her through the mud kicking and screaming to get somewhere.

Sometimes grabbing the hair and dragging her through does actually help.

Anyway, I don't know why your experience differs from mine, it sounds like there are conflicting interests that get in the way of true understanding.

That's our bad moments, not every moment. We can accomplish a crap ton together, it's like mixing 2 extremely competent people that work awesome together as long as everything goes "as planned" which luckily I don't really plan much, but I don't really put plans as important either.

Cool that it's just the bad moments.

For me what I put as important is the objective, the details of the plan are changeable.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

No, no. The thing you quoted explicitly mentions judgments that are based on irrelevant data resulting in conclusions that actually are illogical. The thing you are referring to is different from that, that simply means less new information is being really taken in. I most certainly don't just see one single simplified down concept even when stressed out, it's still inside a larger logical picture. At least that's how I experience it. You as someone with lower Ti may experience it differently.

I was speaking broadly, and not how I experience it. My approach is quite different, but this is something I've noticed in many different people in various contexts. I tend to over think and continually include too many shades in-between. It's rare I get into a binary mode, and of course I wouldn't know anything about how that concept relates to you.

 

[existence]

I was speaking broadly, and not how I experience it. My approach is quite different, but this is something I've noticed in many different people in various contexts. I tend to over think and continually include too many shades in-between. It's rare I get into a binary mode, and of course I wouldn't know anything about how that concept relates to you.

Well but do you understand how it differs from the inferior Ti concept? Because your speculation wasn't exactly spot-on, sorry.

 

[Poki]

Sometimes grabbing the hair and dragging her through does actually help.

Anyway, I don't know why your experience differs from mine, it sounds like there are conflicting interests that get in the way of true understanding.




Cool that it's just the bad moments.

For me what I put as important is the objective, the details of the plan are changeable.

I swear she was on the verge of bi-polar. I do know other ENFJs and sometimes you really do got to grab them by the hair and pull them along metaphorically. No where near as intensely as my ex. She is an extreme and I was always the voice of reason which she agrees to to this day, its when she didn't listen to reason and she got stuck and I had to pull her through the mud kicking and screaming. It was a crazy up and down not knowing when hell would break lose and when things would go smooth. Imagine an ENFJ that is on verge of bi-polar. Its not a pretty site which my IFP friend always said my use of "not pretty" was always interesting and funny. Kinda how people say beauty comes from within in...yeah...was not pretty what was within.

 

[Poki]

This one statement from the larger quote stood out to me, because this is something that tends to happen to most human beings when subjected to stress, fear, and anxiety. You can see it happen often in arguments. People take the issue down to a binary proposition with both sides of the concept taken to an extreme. It is like a lower resolution of reality. I think it happens because under stress people need clarity and the flood of chemicals in the brain make it more difficult to achieve clarity, so concepts are made simpler in order to provide conclusion, clarity, and certitude. I never connected it to a misuse of the Ti function. This one point may have broader causes than just malfunctioning Ti, but either way it is interesting.

By the time my logic comes out from high stress situations it is usually extremely accurate as it has rolled around alot as I work through things and I have filled in all the holes and data. That's what happens when you have a type with a very high threshold for stress finally explode.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Well but do you understand how it differs from the inferior Ti concept? Because your speculation wasn't exactly spot-on, sorry.

No, I don't entirely understand the difference. My speculation was primarily a question and not a conclusion. I don't even have an opinion about it because I don't have enough information. If you are interested to define the difference, I'd be glad to hear it.

Edit:
This could be an interesting discussion. I was just noticing that a reasoning tactic specifically associated with "inferior Ti" is something one could describe as a cultural norm. I think you are saying that binary style reasoning can be associated with different levels of overall irrationality and that the more irrational version of it is what is associated with inferior Ti?

The prevalence of binary reasoning in society could result from a predominance of inferior Ti. It could result from other functions creating the same approach - perhaps inferior Fi as well? While I agree that binary reasoning can be connected to other types of irrational thinking, I would suggest that it is not good logic in and of itself. It tends to rely on overgeneralization, and oversimplification. I have also noticed a connection between binary reasoning and stress, which would fit with one way it could function as inferior Ti taking control of a Fe-dom when subjected to stress. I suspect the inferior Ti would be more effectively used when it is being developed in a natural, healthy manner in a Fe-dom. That would be about the extent of any position I have on it- mostly just observations about possibilities, but not anything absolute or conclusive.

I most likely use Ti over Te, but I think almost entirely in continuums, rather than taking two ideas to their extremes. The extreme endpoints of most concepts are theoretical, so if you are applying logic in the real world, the truth of any proposition tends to lie in the gray area.

 

[existence]

I swear she was on the verge of bi-polar. I do know other ENFJs and sometimes you really do got to grab them by the hair and pull them along metaphorically. No where near as intensely as my ex. She is an extreme and I was always the voice of reason which she agrees to to this day, its when she didn't listen to reason and she got stuck and I had to pull her through the mud kicking and screaming. It was a crazy up and down not knowing when hell would break lose and when things would go smooth. Imagine an ENFJ that is on verge of bi-polar. Its not a pretty site which my IFP friend always said my use of "not pretty" was always interesting and funny. Kinda how people say beauty comes from within in...yeah...was not pretty what was within.

Absolutely, I agree with you on ENFJs. That's my experience too. About having to grab them like that etc. Heh. I don't mind. I also do feel like the voice of reason =) I don't mind ENFJ's either.

 

[existence]

By the time my logic comes out from high stress situations it is usually extremely accurate as it has rolled around alot as I work through things and I have filled in all the holes and data. That's what happens when you have a type with a very high threshold for stress finally explode.

Yep exactly.

No, I don't entirely understand the difference. My speculation was primarily a question and not a conclusion. I don't even have an opinion about it because I don't have enough information. If you are interested to define the difference, I'd be glad to hear it.

I already did.

Here: "The thing you quoted explicitly mentions judgments that are based on irrelevant data resulting in conclusions that actually are illogical. The thing you are referring to is different from that, that simply means less new information is being really taken in."

If any of this is unclear, ask about the unclear parts.

Note, I'd like to clarify that I don't see the stress reaction itself in general as binary thinking, if I want to include more people, such as myself in a general enough definition. That general version is what I defined here. Your specific example may be indeed produced by people who have inferior Ti but I still want to point out that 1) the more general definition is relevant if we want to just discuss the stress response in its own right 2) inferior Ti isn't simply about a binary way of thinking though it may include that 3) inferior Ti in this fashion may be used in other ways/under other circumstances, not just under stress.

Edit:
This could be an interesting discussion. I was just noticing that a reasoning tactic specifically associated with "inferior Ti" is something one could describe as a cultural norm. I think you are saying that binary style reasoning can be associated with different levels of overall irrationality and that the more irrational version of it is what is associated with inferior Ti?

I've never understood this "cultural norm", then. I've heard of about such things tho'.

The prevalence of binary reasoning in society could result from a predominance of inferior Ti.

Or just idiots?

It could result from other functions creating the same approach - perhaps inferior Fi as well? While I agree that binary reasoning can be connected to other types of irrational thinking, I would suggest that it is not good logic in and of itself.

Who the fuck ever stated it's good logic? lol

It tends to rely on overgeneralization, and oversimplification. I have also noticed a connection between binary reasoning and stress, which would fit with one way it could function as inferior Ti taking control of a Fe-dom when subjected to stress. I suspect the inferior Ti would be more effectively used when it is being developed in a natural, healthy manner in a Fe-dom. That would be about the extent of any position I have on it- mostly just observations about possibilities, but not anything absolute or conclusive.

How is it developed in a natural and healthy way?

I most likely use Ti over Te, but I think almost entirely in continuums, rather than taking two ideas to their extremes. The extreme endpoints of most concepts are theoretical, so if you are applying logic in the real world, the truth of any proposition tends to lie in the gray area.

I also don't take them to just two extremes. No. My logical picture is wider than that as I already explained earlier.

I don't even see how "endpoints" would exist in a proper logical fashion. To me it seems way too oversimplified and binary, yes, and whenever I see that sort of reasoning, something in me wants to come out and fix it asap! Fix the person's thinking. It almost feels like a compulsion to fix, haha.

As for the last part of your last statement, no, I disagree that the truth is in a gray area. You clearly don't have Ti as a dominant function, lol. Not that this is a problem. We just definitely see this differently.

What I mean by this, is that the way I see it comes from judging (internally, via Ti), so I make more distinct evaluations than just seeing things as shades (a perceptual thinking style?). It does not mean I would believe that I'm in possession of the Absolute Truth yet.

PS: I'm going to guess INFJ (NiFe) for you

 

[á´…eparted]

Bumping this because I feel like saying that inferior Ti is a cruel evil bitch whore who needs to die a slow painful death and reborn several times to repeat the process ad nauseum.

 

[Tilt]

Ha. I have a love-hate relationship with mine. I am a relatively reasonable person but to analyze things ad nauseum drains the life force out of me. I realized that I couldn't be INFJ since Ti was considered a relief function... Not for me.

But at the same time, I sort of hate the general insinuation in the type descriptions that because my Fe is dominant that i am probably devoid of logic. I just STRONGLY prefer Fe and Ni over everything else.