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  1. #71
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenetta View Post
    Based on some of Jung's descriptions, MBTI literature, and discussions here, there has tended to be some agreement that Fe is related to group dynamics. That is the biggest stumbling block for me to identify with it because I have a special lack of capability in groups - like way more than 90% of people. I can't even join the rhythm of a group conversation, I avoid teaching groups at great cost to myself, I can't and don't play group sports, etc. I'm a weird anomaly in humanity for my inability with group dynamics. However, I can abstractly understand sociological dynamics, can observe some group dynamics, and I have especially strong ability to empathize with individuals outside myself. I don't impose any of my own morality on others except for extremely basic things like rejecting cruelty. I could physically attack someone harming an animal or child. I don't like conflict and so keep the peace inside and out most of the time.

    I'd be curious to hear people address the question of group dynamics and its relationship to Fe. If there is a correlation (which much of the literature does make), then I have to have preference for Fi. I have preference for individual, internal emotional/psychological dynamics, but it doesn't rely on my own perspective. I can go outside myself, but only at the individual level, and to a lesser but reasonable degree the really abstract, large-scale sociological level.
    I'm quite sure Fe is highly related to group dynamics, but as an FJ, I can say that I don't seem to have manifested any particular ability to steer the dynamics involved in groups, although my social anxiety might be the cause for this.

    The things you say often strike me as very Fi in nature.

    I guess what I'm good at it tracking the people around me and what they're doing, and being able to intuitively "get" what is going on. I'm good at understanding people, but I'm mostly socially passive, at least irl.

    Oh, and inability to deal with group dyanmics wouldn't make you an anomaly, given that 50% of the population (give or take) would have the same issue. :P

    Fe, at least a form of Fe, is known for being charismatic and able to persuade people to do one thing or another (which can be destructive if the Fe user is unhealthy/toxic and just using their social ability to manipulate people). Fe is empathetic in the sense of being caring towards people who they determine should be helped, but not too empathetic in the sense of placing themselves in another's shoes, which is more Fi territory. Fe can know how to interact and influence a person, but Fi is a better judge of character. So Fi does go outside itself, but in a way which ties back to the Fi user, so they might observe a person and note "this person gives me a good/bad feeling, I think they're a good/bad person", or "this person is acting authentically/inauthentically" - it's an internal "sense" of what's going on, but is frequently other-focused. It's just that it's subjective and reactive, compared with Fe which is objective and directive (e.g. swaying a group based on more surface level dynamics).

    I'm not sure how to analyse this sentence though "I have preference for individual, internal emotional/psychological dynamics, but it doesn't rely on my own perspective".
    the lone star flies alone
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  2. #72
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Fi is self-referential in being empathic. This can make a Fi user feel especially moved by a situation if they have been or would be hurt similarly.

    Fi users can be very powerful at moving groups when they feel strongly on a topic and engage with authenticity and vulnerability.

    While Fe can be self-referential to find empathy, it has no need to do so. It invasively knows all about the external emotional environment and the feelings others have. Really good salesmen are often ESTP, using tert Fe as a weapon, without feeling any personal constraint at exploiting others. This can often appear sociopathic.

    A healthy FJ can't do that, because they are highly influenced by the emotions of others, sponging up.

    Of course, most cult leaders are unhealthy Fe doms, who use their talents to control others.
    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

    “It is clear that thought is not free if the profession of certain opinions makes it impossible to earn a living. It is clear also that thought is not free if all the arguments on one side of a controversy are perpetually presented as attractively as possible, while the arguments on the other side can only be discovered by diligent search.”

    ― Bertrand Russell, Sceptical Essays
    Likes Chaotic Symphony liked this post

  3. #73
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    I recommend to read Jung Psychological Types.
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  4. #74
    Senior Member Non_xsense's Avatar
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    You know people actually can learn ? ... It's funny when someone try to romatize some "funtions"( specially Nf's and some Nt's).
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  5. #75
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    Extroverted Feeler (Fe) is one of the basic psychological functions that is used for judging objective condition and circumstances by feeling.
    By extroversion of judging by feeling, it means something that you tell an object to be so and so or as such by feeling. For example: "you are sick!" is a judgement. the object that is judged is the sick person. The person is judged to be in ill/unhealthy condition by the judger that use extroverted feeling.

    By an objective judgement, it means, a judgement that is free by subjective/personal factors.

    The psyche with this functions will get conscious once there exist an objective conditions/circumstances from their outside world. The time span of consciousness of extroverted feeler is strictly at the present moment. When they feel something, it is the conditions/circumstances is as such at the present moment. It may not be as such at the past nor at the future.



    Feelings that are naturally extroverted
    I would like to discuss about this, since jung never give some example of feeling that is extroverted by nature.
    There are some feeling that is naturally extroverted.Introverted feeler can't possibly get conscious of them; introverted feeler can only pretend that as if they were also conscious of this feelings.

    Some feeling that can only be get conscious because the psyche has the Fe are : embarrassed, shame, please/displease, anxiety, boredom, funny, revenge, guilt, pity, respect/disrespect, appreciates/not appreciates, empathy, panic, sacrifice, care, suffer, loyal, comfort/discomfort, annoyed, secure/insecure, envy, hasty, regret, Jealousy, suspicious, affection, disappointment, satisfaction, sorrow, difficult feeling.

    Feeling of disappointment
    gets conscious because judging that the reality is far from what was already expected. This feeling is extroverted, since its stimulus source is from objective condition/circumstances and reality. The expectation also usually comes from outside world. e.g a product that is promoted by an advertisement to be durable at but after using it for a while, the product is easily broken. Hence the buyer who had expected to use it for years, gets dissapointed. The response to the feeling is orientated to the object also. in this hypothetical case, it is predicted that the customer who feel dissapointed will complaint to the manufacturer, who is responsible for the advertisement.

    Feeling Annoyed
    I remember that once I saw a car with face powder on one of its glass. I guessed that the car must have been thrown with face powder by someone. A middle age woman seemingly got mad to a man. The man in a hurry drove his car away. I asked a nearby man about what was happening. He explained that the man parked his car in front of the woman's car and pull handbrake it. Therefore the woman could not get her car out. I gave a comment that this road is a little bit downhill, had the driver not pull the handbrake, the car would have been slided. He responded knowing that he should have parked somewhere else; not in front of the woman's car. He said it was annoying.

    Getting annoyed is also extroverted by nature, since its stimulus is from outside world. in this case, the owner a car could get out of the parking because there was car got in its car way out, hence the feeling of annoyed gets conscious. Its response also towards the object, one of its glass gets thrown at with face powder.



    The feeling characterizes useful judgement but also dangerous for its object.


    For example, a doctor that diagnoses his patient conditions if correct, will be followed up by taking a correct medicine or, medical action, and the patient will be back to healthy condition again, but if it is incorrect, the patient may still suffer from its illness or may get his illness more severe.
    When getting annoyed by the car, extroverted feeler gets mad at the car.

    Because they have the nature of becoming conscious of those feeling, they will be good at : military, medicine, law(legal), comedy.
    Because of the guilt feeling that extroverted feeler type can get conscious of, extroverted feeler can easily blame others. Because of the guilt feeling also, extroverted feeler can easily forbid an action to be exercised.
    Because of sense of the funny feeling, they are good at telling jokes/humor.
    Extroverted feeler are naturally friendly person. They can get easily acquainted with new people they haven't met before.
    They tend to burden something to someone by telling that they are obliged to get something done.
    Extroverted feeler can be a good protector like a policeman: "To serve and protect"
    I found that Extroverted feeler tends to be good at cooking.

    Example of Extroverted Feelers judgment on circumstances.
    Have you ever, been in a room or a bus, and seen this sign?
    break the glass.png
    This sign utilizes energy of extroversion of feeling-introversion of sensing, that triggered by objective cirucumstances: emergency. an emergency circumstances can be gotten conscious by extroverted feeler while the response toward the emergency circumstances is as instructed: to take action of breaking the glass.

    Variance of Extroverted Feeler Judgement
    The judgement of extroverted feeler may vary. Doctor usually call their judgement of a patient conditions to be a diagnosis. A judge call their extroverted feeler judgment a verdict.

    Unsconscious Collective Attitude in Extraverted attitude

    It seems that, Fe has a collective attitude. It seems that in extroversion, it inherently possess unconscious collective attitude. The ego unconsciously assumes for All, it will be judged as such and such either by thinking or by feeling. But the psyche that judges as such and such is unaware of it. The use of extroversion perception and judgements therefore is unsconsciously directed to many people. But introversion is not.

    Another feature of extroverted attitude is being "carried away"

    It is important to note that when in our whole life, we never get conscious of these feelings, we are not identified has a function called extroverted feeler in our psyche.
    Glossary
    According to Jung, Extroversion is a nature psychic energy dynamics which attitude is always placing higher in value of outside world object than the subject itself. The subject or the psyche with extroversion psychics functions, as a result, always adjusts itself to their outside world. The determinating factor to the subject is outside world. Its orientation is towards the objective stimulus, and the time span is at the present moment.
    Extroversion is a nature dynamics of psychic energy which always orientated towards objective reality from its outside world. Extrovert get conscious of something because it is triggered by objective reality, and it will respond towards the objective reality also.
    A subject, literally, an agent who do something to an object. An object is a thing to which an action is directed from a subject.

    Terminologies to note: judgement, Object, circumstances, condition, extroverted,
    Last edited by typologyenthusiast; 08-12-2019 at 09:15 PM.

  6. #76
    Rhinocorn Norexan's Avatar
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    Feelings comes from subject. It is all about how subject relate to object. This is Fi. I love/hate...
    While Fe is how object is relate to subject. It is objective look on world in sense of values.
    If your Fi/Fe is inferior you are just lack in this function.


    For example inferior Fi instead accept individuality they will push their ideals to your throat and generate hatred and contentment if you don't fit in their box. Simple because they lack of Fi they will push idealism to the point of madness.

    Inferior Fe instead be reflective to values of each person they will find trouble to find people as they are and therefore condemn the world because they cannot fit anywhere. Because they lack of like/dislike they generate reflective indifference to the world.



    True Neutral 8 1 6 3 7 5 Teexcellent>Niexcellent>Figood>Tigood>>>>Siaverage>Fe unused
    "I WIL NOT F%CK YOUR MIND. YOUR MIND IS ALREADY F%CKED. I WILL JUST PULL THE TRIGGER."
    ===Logical Crusader===

    Dail [or Daer] ú-[o] chyn [or fyn/thyn] [?] Ú-danno i failad a thi; an úben tannatha le failad.

  7. #77
    Senior Member cacaia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexcoder View Post
    ...First of all, I don't believe in the validity of functions in typology. Secondly...I seem to lack an F function. Third, I could choose to do either of those. It's very easy for anyone to be fluid in those things, if they are willing and understand how to reconstruct their minds. (On the other hand, I would have a difficult time making moral code my primary mode of processing in general). I don't relate much to either of those, however. Here is how I form "values:" "If I do X it will result in Y; if I do B it will result in F. F is a better outcome, and thus B is better in this." My "values" are otherwise blank slates which are subject to adaptation. I lack any kind of visceral attachment to beliefs, morals, codes, values...and this is how I understand Fs to be: emotionally attached to beliefs, otherwise called values. I can't really comprehend how on earth they form things otherwise, and to me this is so fucking far from something that makes sense that I even oppose it on an emotional level, I feel very strongly about not doing things that way. This is very foreign to me and I am highly opposed to it, it's like processing life via an emotional bias filter. I don't "morally disagree" with anything because morals lack relevancy to the situations at hand in most cases as I see it. Things often wind up making no logical sense whatsoever, and yet the person will adhere to it firmly despite it conflicting with something more reasonable. While feelings may interfere with my judgment or overpower me at times, feelings are like a child (immature, juvenile) which should be kept in the back seat (not the forefront or head of the decision making process) buckled (controlled) securely and safely (lest they wreck the car like a 3 yr old child). Life doesn't care about how you feel about things: that is irrelevant to the outcomes...there is only consequence vs reward which translates into pro vs con. I don't have values, I have character from that which is weighed out and thus perceived as better or more rewarding; regardless of whether that reward is for myself or others. If I can zoom out, disconnect from feelings, and view all of the dynamics taking place, then make the best possible decision from there, then I am better off. I do exclude the feelings of both myself and others from the equation also. If it makes no difference and either outcome is fine, then I will generally fall back onto whatever others prefer to go with...so that would indicate that I am more Fe, but only as a secondary to what makes logical sense to me. Not all that surprising for an INTP. On the other hand, my ENTJ father (so another "Inferior Feeler") has stronger morals than most and attempts to push them onto others...and before anyone thinks I've mistyped him as a T, this is a man who would emotionally and psychologically abuse me for not wrapping the water hose in the most logical method and makes a fuss about the driving manual instructing people to make 3 point turns when reversing rather than going forward can result in a 1 point turn and is more efficient. It's an ENTJ 8 man who is oozing Te. ...Also, I made a similar post here: Cognitive Function Descriptions / Definitions In 2017-2018 I was depressed as fuck and very Fe, and definitely more Fe than Fi, but I am now back to challenging the conventional, traditional "because everyone else does or says so" horse shit. I don't have much patience for playing by the rules when those rules don't make sense, I perceive it as being a sheeple, a robot. I often feel as though I'm watching programs in the matrix made to look like people when I observe society. Despite the impressions I apparently give now (people are thinking I'm Fi/Te), I relate more to Ti than Te. I do however relate to Fi some now, whereas in 2018 I couldn't even grasp what it meant because it was so foreign to me. Label all of that as you will, I will not be selecting a response. I have better things than typology to spend my time on anyways. I spent 6-7 years determining that I am an INTP and I spent most of my time typed this way, I'm not searching...but the only thing I really laugh at is when someone mistypes me as S instead of N. There's no fucking way I'm anything but N.
    You sound very ntj, actually.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hexcoder View Post
    ...First of all, I don't believe in the validity of functions in typology. Secondly...I seem to lack an F function. Third, I could choose to do either of those. It's very easy for anyone to be fluid in those things, if they are willing and understand how to reconstruct their minds. (On the other hand, I would have a difficult time making moral code my primary mode of processing in general). I don't relate much to either of those, however. Here is how I form "values:" "If I do X it will result in Y; if I do B it will result in F. F is a better outcome, and thus B is better in this." My "values" are otherwise blank slates which are subject to adaptation. I lack any kind of visceral attachment to beliefs, morals, codes, values...and this is how I understand Fs to be: emotionally attached to beliefs, otherwise called values. I can't really comprehend how on earth they form things otherwise, and to me this is so fucking far from something that makes sense that I even oppose it on an emotional level, I feel very strongly about not doing things that way. This is very foreign to me and I am highly opposed to it, it's like processing life via an emotional bias filter. I don't "morally disagree" with anything because morals lack relevancy to the situations at hand in most cases as I see it. Things often wind up making no logical sense whatsoever, and yet the person will adhere to it firmly despite it conflicting with something more reasonable. While feelings may interfere with my judgment or overpower me at times, feelings are like a child (immature, juvenile) which should be kept in the back seat (not the forefront or head of the decision making process) buckled (controlled) securely and safely (lest they wreck the car like a 3 yr old child). Life doesn't care about how you feel about things: that is irrelevant to the outcomes...there is only consequence vs reward which translates into pro vs con. I don't have values, I have character from that which is weighed out and thus perceived as better or more rewarding; regardless of whether that reward is for myself or others. If I can zoom out, disconnect from feelings, and view all of the dynamics taking place, then make the best possible decision from there, then I am better off. I do exclude the feelings of both myself and others from the equation also. If it makes no difference and either outcome is fine, then I will generally fall back onto whatever others prefer to go with...so that would indicate that I am more Fe, but only as a secondary to what makes logical sense to me. Not all that surprising for an INTP. On the other hand, my ENTJ father (so another "Inferior Feeler") has stronger morals than most and attempts to push them onto others...and before anyone thinks I've mistyped him as a T, this is a man who would emotionally and psychologically abuse me for not wrapping the water hose in the most logical method and makes a fuss about the driving manual instructing people to make 3 point turns when reversing rather than going forward can result in a 1 point turn and is more efficient. It's an ENTJ 8 man who is oozing Te. ...Also, I made a similar post here: Cognitive Function Descriptions / Definitions In 2017-2018 I was depressed as fuck and very Fe, and definitely more Fe than Fi, but I am now back to challenging the conventional, traditional "because everyone else does or says so" horse shit. I don't have much patience for playing by the rules when those rules don't make sense, I perceive it as being a sheeple, a robot. I often feel as though I'm watching programs in the matrix made to look like people when I observe society. Despite the impressions I apparently give now (people are thinking I'm Fi/Te), I relate more to Ti than Te. I do however relate to Fi some now, whereas in 2018 I couldn't even grasp what it meant because it was so foreign to me. Label all of that as you will, I will not be selecting a response. I have better things than typology to spend my time on anyways. I spent 6-7 years determining that I am an INTP and I spent most of my time typed this way, I'm not searching...but the only thing I really laugh at is when someone mistypes me as S instead of N. There's no fucking way I'm anything but N.
    You sound very ntj, actually.

  8. #78
    Senior Member cacaia's Avatar
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    I still find myself confused every now and then about this. I can go either way...in terms of harmonizing, to me that means if people can hold on to one thing they all agree on and focus on that instead of bickering.
    If values need to be discussed because they don't align, the only way I wouldn't walk out on people is if they stated their opinions, respectively, and were polite toward the others' explanation, agreeing to disagree and focusing on the one thing they could agree on. ( Ex...Professor X and Magneto playing chess)
    At the same time, I prefer to not be around people. If I could just observe them without being involved, awesome ( like reading about others in books. You are involved, but kind of removed from people's lives). I am Very opinionated, but am open to others' points of view, accepting that my way is not the only way.
    So I'm still quite confused about this Fe or Fi thing....

  9. #79
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    @cacaia
    The pscyhe with Extrovert feeler will by default always objective in their judgement of conditions and circumstances. Example of judging condition is saying"you are crazy". Crazy is a mental condition of the person judged at the present moment. They will naturally not say that a condition is so, if they do not feel the condition is not as such at the present moment.
    Yes, I notice extroverted feeler tend to be arguing against each other.

    I notice Extrovert feeler, behaviorally, tend to get energized when the topic of discussion is about health, law, humanity, food, but it may not be only limited to this. When they get energized, they tend to stay longer in the discussion while others who don't have such energy may feel drained.

    But, Some may want to identify for themselves instead of asking others to identify them. If you feel you want to investigate for yourself, You should give this a try.
    A method for self identification
    To identify your natural energy, you should enlist what kind of activities you tend to feel energized in. The activities will give you some hint which psychological energies in you. You should keep in mind that activities you are energized in doing may not be the same as others.
    Or when you engage in activities that requires the energy that is not available for you, you may feel drained. One of my friend told me that when he was in high school, when sitting in a classroom, he frequently accidentally fell asleep in some lesson. But he told me that he was once a runner up in a running competition. Sleeping in classroom signifies exhaustion. But when doing sports, he was performing better than most of the participants, which signifies strength.
    To identify the energy, try listing the activities that you are not exhausted in doing and exhausted in doing.

  10. #80
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by typologyenthusiast View Post

    Or when you engage in activities that requires the energy that is not available for you, you may feel drained. One of my friend told me that when he was in high school, when sitting in a classroom, he frequently accidentally fell asleep in some lesson. But he told me that he was once a runner up in a running competition. Sleeping in classroom signifies exhaustion. But when doing sports, he was performing better than most of the participants, which signifies strength.
    To identify the energy, try listing the activities that you are not exhausted in doing and exhausted in doing.
    I was strong in maths but that doesn't make me an INTP. And I get drained from doing personality reads, when I think that would be quite an INFJ thing to do.

    I'm not disagreeing with you in general, I do think that you're right that activities involving weaker functions are more draining, I'm just pointing out that there are certain complexities to it, too.

    But I would say that when I have the most energy, my imagination is very active. Being in a low-imagination state is linked to being in a low-energy state overall.
    the lone star flies alone

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