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English and Perception

Mole

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We perceive by making distinctions. And the more distinctions, the more we see.

Language is a perfect example: it is full of distinctions called words, and the more words, other things being equal, the more we see.

As of 1st January, 2014, English contained one million, twenty-five thousand, one hundred and ten (1,025,110) words, while French, for instance, contained one hundred thousand (100,000) words.

In fact English contains more words, more distinctions, than any other language. So we can say English is the most perceptive language on Earth.
 

/DG/

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What about languages like German? English is a language where we make new words more often than most romance languages. They tend to utilize new phrase constructions of already existing words, as far as I can tell. So I don't think this is a fair comparison.
 

Mole

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English, German and the Gestalt

What about languages like German? English is a language where we make new words more often than most romance languages. They tend to utilize new phrase constructions of already existing words, as far as I can tell. So I don't think this is a fair comparison.

Mate, mate, fairness doesn't come into it, German only contains 135,000 words while English contains 1,025,110 words.

Put up 135,000 German distinctions against 1,025,110 English distinctions and the result is an English blitzkrieg.

Compared to English, German is blind.

And doubly blind because we all perceive in gestalts, that is, we only see what we take to be the whole, but isn't. So for instance Germans think they perceive the whole world with German, but they don't. They suffer, along with all of us, an illusion of wholeness.

It's just that the English gestalt is much, much bigger than the German gestalt.

English not only sees much more than German but also makes finer distinctions.

What is extraordinary is that English is so much bigger, so more perceptive, with finer distinctions, than any other language on Earth.
 

Yama

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All languages shape our perception. Consider how there are more derogatory insults for women in the English dictionary than there are for men. I also learned--unfortunately I forget what language/culture and am not home so can't look it up--that don't have as many words for colors as other languages do. Even this shapes perception. It isn't just English, but yes, English is a big one.
 

Mole

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All languages shape our perception. Consider how there are more derogatory insults for women in the English dictionary than there are for men. I also learned--unfortunately I forget what language/culture and am not home so can't look it up--that don't have as many words for colors as other languages do. Even this shapes perception. It isn't just English, but yes, English is a big one.

And of course there is Strine.

Strine is the way we pronounce Australian in Oz.

And just as the eskimos have twenty words for snow, Strine has twenty meanings for mate, from a lifelong friend to being sent flowers by the mafia.

We like to think we speak English while we find Strine in every Aussie mouth.
 

CitizenErased

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Well, from what I can understand, English is used by people of all nations. The language not only acquires new words that the times being may require but also takes words from other languages too. There are tons of words in the dictionary that have latin roots. I can say "calid" instead of "warm", and in Spanish would be "cálido" and "caldo" in Italian.

Then, for example, Spanish (from Spain) has like 300.000 words. But if you add all the variations of vocabulary and idiomatic expressions that you can find in hispanic countries, the number grows quickly.

As a person who speaks a couple languages, I can give my humble opinion: each language has its own strong point. The latin-rooted languages are richer in... "poetic words" (just to label them), whereas English, for example, has an astonishing amount of technicisms. Though, I don't trust a language that doesn't make a difference between "ser" and "estar" (both "to be"... easy to understand with the typical acronyms: SER = DOCTOR: Description, Occupation, Characteristic, Time, Origin, Relationship. ESTAR = PLACE: Position, Location, Action, Condition, Emotion).

Your statement is that people who spaeak English "see more" than people who don't speak it? Even if X language doesn't have certain word, one can compose the description/definition with other words and make oneself understand equally... or propose a new word until it becomes popular and then it's added to the language officially.

About "seeing more", the Greek didn't have the word "beauty" how we understand it today. They had the word "eurythmics". Or they found beauty in "symmetry", which meant "composition with correct proportions" instead of a correspondence in shapes and points at two sides of an axis. "Seeing more" depends on what is the time and place you live in needs you to see. Just like the Renaissance passed from a binocular way of "seeing" to a monocular way, inventing perspective.

Now, with a fervient globalization process, it's difficult (if not impossible) to determine what it's "best" because boundaries are not so clear anymore. That happens with ethnicities, the colour of the skin, the nationality, the culture, the traditions, and language too.
 

Mole

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Your statement is that people who spaeak English "see more" than people who don't speak it? Even if X language doesn't have certain word, one can compose the description/definition with other words and make oneself understand equally... or propose a new word until it becomes popular and then it's added to the language officially.

About "seeing more", the Greek didn't have the word "beauty" how we understand it today. They had the word "eurythmics". Or they found beauty in "symmetry", which meant "composition with correct proportions" instead of a correspondence in shapes and points at two sides of an axis. "Seeing more" depends on what is the time and place you live in needs you to see. Just like the Renaissance passed from a binocular way of "seeing" to a monocular way, inventing perspective.

It is a question of epistemology, or how we see. My proposition is that we perceive by making distinctions, and the more distinctions, the more we see. If my proposition is true, then those who can make more distinctions, see more. And as English contains far more words than any other language, and every word is a distinction, English sees more.

This is not readily obvious, as many are unfamiliar with epistemology, and as they identify with their own language, they are offended to find it is impoverished in comparison with English, and also they believe their language gives a whole view of the world, when it doesn't.

But really it is a fait accompli, and English is the lingua franca of the whole world, a treasure trove given to the world by a small island off the coast of Europe.
 

21%

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A better way to put it is, the more languages you speak, the more you see. And if you speak more than one language natively, you will know that you can't really make comparisons, because it's a different life, a different world.
 

Mole

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A better way to put it is, the more languages you speak, the more you see. And if you speak more than one language natively, you will know that you can't really make comparisons, because it's a different life, a different world.

That's what they say about multiculturalism: you can't compare cultures because all are different. But a reasonable person can see some cultures are better than others. For instance, it is plain literate cultures are far better than spoken cultures. This is why we are all compelled to go to school by State Law to learn to read and write.

And within literate cultures, English is the Queen.
 

Yama

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That's what they say about multiculturalism: you can't compare cultures because all are different. But a reasonable person can see some cultures are better than others. For instance, it is plain literate cultures are far better than spoken cultures. This is why we are all compelled to go to school by State Law to learn to read and write.

And within literate cultures, English is the Queen.

Cultures may be different; but they are not hierarchical. Everyone tends to think their way of living is "better" or "the right way." That is ethocentrism. No culture is better or worse than any other, because "better" and "worse" by definition are subjective and differ from culture to culture depending on that culture's values.
 

Mole

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Cultures may be different; but they are not hierarchical. Everyone tends to think their way of living is "better" or "the right way." That is ethocentrism. No culture is better or worse than any other, because "better" and "worse" by definition are subjective and differ from culture to culture depending on that culture's values.

Well, cultures that practise slavery such as the Islamic State are a lot worse then liberal democracies that practise the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Cultures that teach natural selection and practise it daily in sequencing the genome, are superior to cultures like Islam and some fundamentalist Christian sects, who teach Creationism and ignore science and the daily sequencing of the genome.

Cultures with the values of equality and freedom are superior to cultures that teach and practise submission to authority.

And cultures that teach and practise evidence and reason are superior to those who practise traditional superstitions.
 

Yama

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Well, cultures that practise slavery such as the Islamic State are a lot worse then liberal democracies that practise the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Cultures that teach natural selection and practise it daily in sequencing the genome, are superior to cultures like Islam and some fundamentalist Christian sects, who teach Creationism and ignore science and the daily sequencing of the genome.

Cultures with the values of equality and freedom are superior to cultures that teach and practise submission to authority.

And cultures that teach and practise evidence and reason are superior to those who practise traditional superstitions.

I agree that slavery's shitty, but that doesn't define an entire culture. It took Britain decades for its grassroots abolition movement to end slavery; Britain and other countries who have practiced slavery in the past are not morally superior in that regard. It is great that it's finally abolished in many nations, but those nations aren't guilt-free, either.

Again, our cultures tend to value science over religion, but that does not necessarily make our culture superior--only in our eyes, when compared to our values. I actually prefer it our way--which I acknowledge fully as ethocentrism, which I nor anyone else can ever be completely free on.

Submission to authority and freedom are not mutually exclusive--we submit to authority every day when we follow laws.

And no, your fourth statement is ethocentrism. Like I described previously in this reply, I definitely prefer logic and reason to tradition and superstition, but it does not make us superior, because we are defining "superior" and "inferior" based in the context of our own subjective culture.

Let's say there is a random culture living in a forest somewhere in this world that abhors technology and chooses to live in caves. They have their own traditions, practices, and set of cultural values. And those people would definitely think of their culture as superior to ours. Perhaps they would say we are abhorrent because our way of life breaks some set of cultural rules or values that they have.

eth·no·cen·trism
ˌeTHnōˈsentrizəm/
noun
evaluation of other cultures according to preconceptions originating in the standards and customs of one's own culture.

I just want to clarify that I'm not completely disagreeing with your personal views. I think slavery is a disgusting concept, I prefer science to religion and creationism, and for the most part I would rather continue living in the sort of culture I live in now than go live in a culture that I might otherwise deem "lesser" because of my subjective opinion of said culture's value based on my own subjective cultural values.

I am simply trying to explain that no, you are not free of ethocentrism. And neither am I. And that is why no one, not you, not me, not anyone, ever, will ever be able to say objectively that "Culture x is superior to culture y." Ever.

We can never free ourselves of our own cultural context and lenses. We may try to expand them, and open our minds, but never be free of them.

And that is not to say that having our opinions is not okay. I think slavery is terrible, and I acknowledge that other cultures might not have the same values as mine, and yet I continue to think that it is terrible. But not without acknowledging that that fact alone doesn't make one culture better or worse. Because we can never truly be objective in this regard.

Edit: I also want to add that I don't mean saying "oh it's all ethocentrism" to be meant as an excuse for others' behavior. For example, yes, I think slavery's bad. Yes, I think that slavery might not be seen as "bad" under a different cultural context. No, that doesn't mean I'm saying "Herp derp don't try and do anything about it just let them be because ethocentrism."

I am just saying that you must acknowledge it. But not that you must permit it. AKA, no I absolutely don't condone slavery, and even realizing that my views are ethocentrist, would still push to end slavery in other parts of the world. Just in case that wasn't clear.
 
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Yama

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Err... I think I'm getting us off topic... lol

My semantics debate aside, yes, language highly shapes how we perceive our world. Like [MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION] mentioned, for example, the eskimos have a variety of different words for snow, because it is relevant to them and a large part of their lives.

Here's an interesting read from Stanford:

https://psych.stanford.edu/~lera/papers/sci-am-2011.pdf
 

CitizenErased

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[MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION]
I understand your point of view, but it feels a little "closed" to me. English may be the lingua franca. Which is funny because English doesn't have a word of its own for "lingua franca", which sort of... proves my point. As [MENTION=6971]21%[/MENTION] said, the more languages you know, the more you see. That's what English did: took words from other origins, didn't stick just with its germanic roots. And that is a wise thing to do.

Let me illustrate my thought. The difference between the Greek polis and the Roman civitas.

The polis was considered the place where people with the same origin, the éthos of the traditions that made them inhabitants of that polis. Whoever was born there, inherited the traditions and consequently, the "citizenship". The civitas, on the other hand, included people from different places, with different religions and traditions who decided to live by the same set of laws. This means that the polis were closed to the "outsiders". They needed the number of people to be small because of their politics, it was easier to vote. If people started mixing up with other polis, their éthos would be also mixed up and they'd lose autonomy and identity as a polis.

But, here is the interesting thing: the Romans kind of invented globalization. They wanted to create an éthos without limits (i.e. to expand themselves and conquer the whole world), called "Roma mobilis". In this Roma mobilis, eany person, no matter their origin, could be a citizen if they accepted to live by the rules. The Romans didn't impose their original culture on the newbies. They took their cultures and added them. Hence, the Greeks became monoglots and the Romans polyglots. They became the most powerful empire you can think of, while the Greek civilization sort of stayed and died there.

Things go better when you add knowlege, not substract (or are reluctant to accept it).
 

ChocolateMoose123

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Well, I'm reading a lot of the OP's words and I see the distinction between what is and what is being extrapolated from what is. I don't need a lot of words to call it out as short-sighted.
 

prplchknz

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english went around conquering the world and saying you indegisnous peeps learn english and they were like no and they were like fine then we'll kill you and your family and they were like ok, plus english speaking countries can't keep their noses out of others affairs and so via merging of culture and english speaking people not wanting to learn a language and can make everyone else learn it, it makes sense that it be a mutt language.
 

Santosha

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Reminds me of that Alan watts quote, about confusing the world that is talked about, described and measured, with what is.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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Well, cultures that practise slavery such as the Islamic State are a lot worse then liberal democracies that practise the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Cultures that teach natural selection and practise it daily in sequencing the genome, are superior to cultures like Islam and some fundamentalist Christian sects, who teach Creationism and ignore science and the daily sequencing of the genome.

Cultures with the values of equality and freedom are superior to cultures that teach and practise submission to authority.

And cultures that teach and practise evidence and reason are superior to those who practise traditional superstitions.

I thought you were talking about language and words? LOL. You are really going in through the back door with your arguments and it is obvious. They are so easy to dismiss because the merits are compromised. Call a cigar a cigar and let each one stand openly.
 

Red Herring

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The data given in the OP is inaccurate as are the conclusions drawn from that false data. This betrays a poor understanding of linguistics.

Here's a short explanation why: Counting words: The biggest vocabulary? | The Economist

As for the languages mentioned so far: The numbers mentioned can't possibly be compared. For example, 135.000 is not the number of words in the German language, it is the number of words in an abridged go-to dictionary standing on many office desks, the Duden. The Duden publishing house (which is also a language research center) is actually collecting a corpus of German words and has counted about 9 million different German words, however many of them have only been ever used once or twice because they are compounds. It does show you though that at least 9 million words can be expressed in German. Also, the French language has not 100.000 but rather about 300.000 core words, but that doesn't mean anything either because they form compounds differently than English or German.

So it is near impossible to know how many words a language comprises because there is no generally accepted definition of "word" (and language vs dialect is yet another issue). And it is just as impossible to fairly compare different languages, especially if they work very differently.

The difference between langue and parole is a whole different story. The fact that a language contains millions of words doesn not mean that a single person on earth actively or even passively knows them all. Not by far. The average vocabulary of an educated adult is about 15.000 words, no matter if his native language is English or German or French. Very highly educated scholars and writers can nearly double that number but would still be very far away from using the actual potential of their native language. Most of the words that go beyond the vocabulary of an educated adult are highly technical terms (million of them in chemistry alone if you count all the possible names of chemical compounds!). They have no influence on how refined or differenciated the perception of the world is that the man on the street or even the poet or the highly sophisticated professor has.

Putting these problems aside, the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (that language determines or at least shapes out worldview) has to be taken with a large chunk of salt. Things are a bit more complicated.
 
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