If you don't know you're doing it, can it really be described as "manipulation"?
I think if something/one is making you bored or disrespecting you it's perfectly natural that you withdraw from that stimulus.
By the time I've completely withdrawn/emotionally detached from a person, there is no question of my trying to manipulate them (there never is - the very idea is anathema to me). I've simply lost the ability to care. And once that happens there's really nothing more to say/do. If the relationship means something to me, I'll fight for a long time before that to try to keep communication going, but there comes a point where it's just more effort/pain than it's worth.
I was wondering the same thing when I read the op (“Manipulates by staying preoccupied with ideas and projects and by detaching emotionally from othersâ€), because ‘staying preoccupied with ideas and projects’ and detaching seem more like coping devices than manipulative behaviors. At least for me- I do it for the sake of itself, not to elicit a specific response from someone else.
When I read through the other types’ supposedly ‘manipulative’ behaviors, I could see how they were manipulative. The fact that I'm only having trouble understanding how the Five description is manipulative seems maybe indicative that I can't see it because it’s too close to home. Dunno.
I was wondering the same thing when I read the op (“Manipulates by staying preoccupied with ideas and projects and by detaching emotionally from othersâ€), because ‘staying preoccupied with ideas and projects’ and detaching seem more like coping devices than manipulative behaviors. At least for me- I do it for the sake of itself, not to elicit a specific response from someone else.
When I read through the other types’ supposedly ‘manipulative’ behaviors, I could see how they were manipulative. The fact that I'm only having trouble understanding how the Five description is manipulative seems maybe indicative that I can't see it because it’s too close to home. Dunno.
It becomes manipualtive if it's avoidance .. being involved in any kind of relationship requires responsibility from each side.
If you are "busy" as a way of not dealing with something that involves not only your feelings but those of others, it's manipulative.
I know it's motivation seems born out of self preservation.
The information presented is in regard to relationships. Once in a relationship the focus of responsibility changes. Most people will feel manipulated if the relationship is always on your terms.
Maybe I am not totally clear on the definition of manipulation...or how the definition may alter still with regards to relationships
I just want to add.. I only say this because, I am so good at not being responsible, making unilateral decisions that affect others and withdrawing on my terms.
This is what the both the type 5 and 6 have to work on.
Do these hold true for you? If so, how have you overcome these tendencies in your relationships (or how did they get in the way)?
Type Eight
What they look for
Dependability, loyalty, strength, sexual compatibility.
What gets in the way
Insisting on maintaining control of others. Manipulates by dominating others and by demanding that others do as they say.
I like this. Even with the e6 'testing'...where I am trying to elicit a specific response...I don't do it to manipulate per se. In other words I am trying to see the truth...not create/change what is true. It is a coping strategy to protect me from being taken 'off guard'.
A hoarder of knowledge... So, in general, is a five more likely to have an extreme fear of being wrong? Because I have that.... Big time. You know, now that I ask this, I see it's far to general to be one category. I suppose, is it intensified within the five more than all the others?
I was wondering the same thing when I read the op (“Manipulates by staying preoccupied with ideas and projects and by detaching emotionally from othersâ€), because ‘staying preoccupied with ideas and projects’ and detaching seem more like coping devices than manipulative behaviors. At least for me- I do it for the sake of itself, not to elicit a specific response from someone else.
When I read through the other types’ supposedly ‘manipulative’ behaviors, I could see how they were manipulative. The fact that I'm only having trouble understanding how the Five description is manipulative seems maybe indicative that I can't see it because it’s too close to home. Dunno.
It becomes manipualtive if it's avoidance .. being involved in any kind of relationship requires responsibility from each side.
If you are "busy" as a way of not dealing with something that involves not only your feelings but those of others, it's manipulative.
I know it's motivation seems born out of self preservation.
The information presented is in regard to relationships. Once in a relationship the focus of responsibility changes. Most people will feel manipulated if the relationship is always on your terms.
I just want to add.. I only say this because, I am so good at not being responsible, making unilateral decisions that affect others and withdrawing on my terms.
This is what the both the type 5 and 6 have to work on.
Like Arc says, Five practices a passive manipulation (rather than a more conscious one), seeking to divert things into the intellectual and detached, although relationships are not detached by nature. Those who attempt to require more engagement are fended off, made to feel stupid or guilty or too emotional, etc., as if there is something wrong with them for not acting more like the Five.
Basically, the Five either has to remain completely alone (to maintain integrity) or else has to actually engage back in order to at least be fair in regards to the investments being made in her. But no one is completely self-contained; we all interact with people or benefit from other people to some degree.
Anyway, the term "manipulation" can be quibbled over, I suppose; traditionally, the Five is selfish... a hoarder of time and resources... afraid to take risks unless the answer is already known... afraid to risk the intellectual reputation... and not realizing, by Enneagram conventions, that intellect is not meant to be hoarded and is not an end in itself, but is a gift and talent to be spent when interacting with others. It's what the Five can bring to the table as a gift, not as a means to win resources for itself while otherwise fending off intrusions into its personal space.
As an 8w7 who displays some 5 tendencies, I agree with this except to include the caveat that there will be individuals and situations that aren't worth the fight or effort to engage with. The individual themselves will have to weigh the positives and negatives and decide what's/who's worth it or not.Like Arc says, Five practices a passive manipulation (rather than a more conscious one), seeking to divert things into the intellectual and detached, although relationships are not detached by nature. Those who attempt to require more engagement are fended off, made to feel stupid or guilty or too emotional, etc., as if there is something wrong with them for not acting more like the Five.
Basically, the Five either has to remain completely alone (to maintain integrity) or else has to actually engage back in order to at least be fair in regards to the investments being made in her. But no one is completely self-contained; we all interact with people or benefit from other people to some degree.
Anyway, the term "manipulation" can be quibbled over, I suppose; traditionally, the Five is selfish... a hoarder of time and resources... afraid to take risks unless the answer is already known... afraid to risk the intellectual reputation... and not realizing, by Enneagram conventions, that intellect is not meant to be hoarded and is not an end in itself, but is a gift and talent to be spent when interacting with others. It's what the Five can bring to the table as a gift, not as a means to win resources for itself while otherwise fending off intrusions into its personal space.