Westworld (2016)

[Totenkindly]

Actually I head this about the Dirty Harry movies and wasn't there a Ronin movie with DeNiro? Naturally these are American cop movies but I can see how westerns evolved from a much older story (Shakespeare) or the Samuri period (1600-1868), especially since American Westerns take place at the end of that period.

Samurai cinema - Wikipedia

Yeah, "Ronin" is a Frankenheimer film I just love to death and even saw in the theater when it came out -- about disavowed spies/assassins/hackers for hire because they've veered off the beaten path and have no legitimate work in post-Cold War, and aside from the name, there's an actual anecdotal tieback to ronin in the film. So it's kind of the "modern world" equivalent. The film also seems to be all old-fashioned stuntwork with the car chases, etc., and there's an odd thing about Sean Bean in this film that breaks the meme. There's also a few great audacious moves in this film, when people make the mistake of assuming they are dealing with people of honor.

(Sean Bean, Robert DeNiro, Natasha McElhone, Stellan Skarsgard, Jean Reno, Michael Lonsdale, and another famous actor who it was great to see when he popped it.) I dunno. I just love this film, it's pretty "clean" like Michael Mann's "Heat" and just tells the story, with great actors.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I didn't know about westerns influencing samurai movies, I thought the influence pretty much flowed in one direction. Shakespeare (at least for Kurusawa) -> samurai/Japanese -> western. But admittedly, the little I know about it is because I just really like Kurasawa. (Reminder: Star Wars is loosely based on one of Kurasawa's samurai movies too).

Sean Bean meme came up in a text discussion with my son tonight.

Me: You are going to really like one of the cast additions for this season's Westworld. [Hiroyuki Sanata]

My son: Who? Cast additions aren't spoilers.

My son: Unless it's Sean Bean.

 

[chubber]

screw spoilers

[MENTION=7]Totenkindly[/MENTION], was it everything you expected?

 

[Totenkindly]

Man. I hope this season can keep pushing ahead so strongly, last night's episode seemed to be another winner. There are finally some revelations, too, along the way... and ending with the kicker that I pretty much had expected based on the earlier part of the season. I love that, though.

- I'm still a little vague on whether Sakura was the actual daughter of Akane or just the daughter of her heart so to speak... but the way this story unfolds really makes it scan as Sakura being the literal daughter of Akane and Musashi -- as far as the unspoken backstory goes and the conclusion to this current chapter of Shogun World.

- Maeve is proving to be more respectful of other hosts' autonomy than Dolores is. It was very touching to watch that final scene unfold. At the same time, Maeve picked up Armistice's counterpart (Hanaryo). Which is one thing I am loving about this show, in how we're accumulating an eclectic mix of hosts as they migrate from world to world.

- Her scene with finding her daughter was just a 1-2-3 punch, beautifully rendered. Of course she is experiencing her memories in total clarity. Then she finds her daughter and expresses her mama bear instincts. Then she realizes that her daughter was reprogrammined to view another as her mother and vice versa... and if she respects them, how can she override what they have? It's an empty feeling. My main disappointment is that the show didn't sit on that longer -- there's now an out where the Ghost Nation shows up (in the same story loop as earlier with Maeve) to attack them. So the mother will likely be cut down, leaving Maeve with her daughter... it's a little too pat... but it's still something to see the rest of her posse move in, see Felix choose to throw in his lot the hosts while Lee and Sylvester bail. Also... what did the Ghost Nation mean when speaking to Maeve. Thandie Newton also gives a beautiful delivery when she initially dismisses Lee's request for praise, then realizes he needs more from her and expresses actual gratitude.

- The scene between William and Emily around the campfire. Damn, that was great. We see a side of William we don't see -- how his daughter can disarm him -- and Emily is pretty fierce and clearly her father's daughter. It just felt very much what a father/daughter relationship would look like in that context. And I believed William too, past my own instincts, just like Emily wanted to... even though I'm like, "Can a man like this really change?" And she wakes up into that beautiful morning, only to realize she was fucked over. I felt fucked over too. It was pretty glorious.

- We now see the ramifications of Dolores' "rape" of Teddy. Apparently he remembers everything. And he is what she made him to be, but at the same time there's a sense of betrayal there now between them. You can tell too that maybe on some level Dolores regrets the loss of gentle sweet Teddy and wonders what she's done... but like with William, it's not stopping her at all. I'm not sure WTF they're trying to do with the train explosion. That was pretty cold about the tech too. Anyway, direct counterpoint between Maeve and Dolores here in terms of how the deal with the other hosts; when hosts express volition, Maeve seems prone to "hands off" and only takes over those who are not thinking for themselves or who pose a direct threat. Side note: with the tech dead, Teddy cannot be put back to "normal", can he? Killing him seemed superfluous and not really worthy of Dolores.

- Ah ,the mystery of the red ball -- and it seems pretty clear now it was Ford (as we had speculated last week)... except it's not Ford in a host body but Ford inside the Cradle, defending his hosts from being subjected back to enslavement and the properties from being utilized by Delos. (Well, either that or Ford was just interjected directly into the system if possible? But I don't know if that is possible....) Anyway, ah, yes, Ford. He's the god who died so that he could spend eternity protecting his people and give them room to grow. But hey, here is another thing -- there is speculation about whether the Bernard we see in the season opener is really Bernard. With Bernard's brain removed, who knows what brain will be placed back inside? It might be Ford in there after all, or even someone else.

- Elsie is great. I'm glad she's back. Ashley's kinda getting a bum rap too, but at least he's also a familiar face in this world of chaos.

- Nailgunning Abernathy to a chair. WTF. I mean, yeah, of course... but the more we view Hosts as independent living entities, the worse this scans. Of course, that's how we're meant to feel.

The whole disparity between host and human memory also keeps getting driven home. It's pretty fascinating. Human memory is laden with emotion and fuzzy -- both a curse and a blessing. Sometimes big picture is better than detail, despite how it loses data and and can result in forgotten memories, at the same time is it really that great to clearly remember things that are painful or destructive? Host memory is exact and clear no matter how much time passes, because of how it's stored ... the details of each moment of memory either exist or don't, rather than being laden with the half-realized impressions of human memory. It means both experience life in very different ways.


Also getting back to Ford for a moment:

Here's his last words from Season 1 finale:

An old friend once told me something that gave me great comfort, something he’d read. He said that Mozart, Beethoven, and Chopin never died. They simply became music. So I hope you will enjoy this last piece, very much.

Ford was essentially telling everyone what was becoming of him, apparently. he didn't die either -- he just became [the music of] code.

And the piece is still playing.

 

[chubber]

Here's his last words from Season 1 finale:


Ford was essentially telling everyone what was becoming of him, apparently. he didn't die either -- he just became [the music of] code.

And the piece is still playing.

And

so I'm going to ignore, how the red balls make sense, because as we know it, and as I was told, Ford was standing there in the flesh speaking to his audience. But somehow his red ball exists and is in the Cradle. I'll just have to sit and wait and see how that comes together, cause that bugs me. If the red represents memories of humans, why is it red and how is it created, does it mean, it is just a white globe-shaped-unit with the cover removed so that we can see the red ball? If Ford's memories were created in a red ball. Was it then "programmed", because this whole time I was thinking that it was "harvested" from real brains. Probably why it wasn't making any sense to me. Then I also have to wonder why the need for the corrections. As ironically Bernard said in the first season, hosts correct each other constantly.

Anyway, Bernard has a red ball. And how the supposed "Arnold" with the different shirt/black lab coat was corrected by Dolores, so was the "Arnold" that we saw, getting shot in the back of the head, by Dolores, the real Arnold. or was it the host Arnold. And the "he" that Dolores refers to, is that a different internal voice or was that a reference to the original Arnold, for correction only. I was thinking at first, she was hearing "Ford's" voice. Like there was a competition happening. Competing methods of how the "internal voice" becomes their own. I guess I'm trying to say, how both competed to make it seem "real".

Oh, and I was thinking the Maeve's "WiFi" ability, is that sub-routine-network thing that she probably got access to. The same method that Bernard used to find Abernathy, when he was tasked to do so from the "unknown" forgetful memory lab with the drones.

I also think the attempt, or link they create between humans/hosts memory, is by "unlinking" their memories, to create the supposed "illusion" of fuzzy memories. "Memories" that float around, as Elsie said. And it is up to them to puzzle things together to get access to the clear memory. Like maybe a reference to hypnosis/hypnotherapy?

Also Teddy seems like an e9 now

edit: and I'm not buying the whole respectful thing of Maeve, seems pretty focused on getting "her" child back. Even when the child was in shock/fear, leaving her mother by force. Yes the story of the puppets, her daughter played with, did maybe trigger, or validate Maeve to go and, well do what she did, which is to take the child against her will. I don't know if the puppets were a back story, or if Maeve was hoping, that the story was her daughter remembering her with the "reveries".

edit: and this whole time I was thinking that Maeve was Ford's version of what consciousness looks like, and Dolores was Arnold's version of consciousness. That is my reasoning to the competing ways of portraying consciousness.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I felt like there was a lot of references to Christian iconography in this episode, and I wondered why (perhaps it was a coincidence), but the bit at the end, especially the way you put, it makes sense.

Ford is God resurrected.

In terms of iconography, I felt the use of nails for Abernathy was a deliberate reference to the crucifixion. It's obviously super gory, but it was gory in a way that stood out for me, even in this super-violent show. The method and circumstances involved were just too unusual.


You also have the burning heart, which is a common symbol in Catholic iconography. (Again, that seemed very odd, and stood out for me.) I don't think burning hearts is part of Japanese funeral rituals, and nothing I found here suggests that it is.

And finally, there's Maeve's crew walking out of the graves, like the dead rising again at the last judgement. Consider the way Tarot decks often depict this:

(I love the imagery with this. Something about the way it's so literally depicted. I generally am attracted to the aesthetics of tarot decks, but this one in particular is a favorite of mine.)

Perhaps the bodies found in the lake will be resurrected at the Mesa? Note the presence of water in the card. This would mean the damage control unit was fucked, by the way.

 

[chubber]

I felt like there was a lot of references to Christian iconography in this episode, and I wondered why (perhaps it was a coincidence), but the bit at the end, especially the way you put, it makes sense.

Ford is God resurrected.

In terms of iconography, I felt the use of nails for Abernathy was a deliberate reference to the crucifixion. It's obviously super gory, but it was gory in a way that stood out for me, even in this super-violent show. The method and circumstances involved were just too unusual.


You also have the burning heart, which is a common symbol in Catholic iconography. (Again, that seemed very odd, and stood out for me.) I don't think burning hearts is part of Japanese funeral rituals, and nothing I found here suggests that it is.

And finally, there's Maeve's crew walking out of the graves, like the dead rising again at the last judgement. Consider the way Tarot decks often depict this:

(I love the imagery with this. Something about the way it's so literally depicted. I generally am attracted to the aesthetics of tarot decks, but this one in particular is a favorite of mine.)

Perhaps the bodies found in the lake will be resurrected at the Mesa? Note the presence of water in the card. This would mean the damage control unit was fucked, by the way.

referencing sumurai world

So is it possible, that because their back ground characters were originally borrowed from Westworld, the reason for the burning heart now happens there. Even though Christianity was banned in Japan. And isn't this also the case, as was previously talked about in this thread, the western influence in the oriental movies?

I didn't know about westerns influencing samurai movies, I thought the influence pretty much flowed in one direction. Shakespeare (at least for Kurusawa) -> samurai/Japanese -> western. But admittedly, the little I know about it is because I just really like Kurasawa. (Reminder: Star Wars is loosely based on one of Kurasawa's samurai movies too).

Sean Bean meme came up in a text discussion with my son tonight.

Me: You are going to really like one of the cast additions for this season's Westworld. [Hiroyuki Sanata]

My son: Who? Cast additions aren't spoilers.

My son: Unless it's Sean Bean.

 

[Totenkindly]

I felt like there was a lot of references to Christian iconography in this episode, and I wondered why (perhaps it was a coincidence), but the bit at the end, especially the way you put, it makes sense.

Ford is God resurrected.

In terms of iconography, I felt the use of nails for Abernathy was a deliberate reference to the crucifixion. It's obviously super gory, but it was gory in a way that stood out for me, even in this super-violent show. The method and circumstances involved were just too unusual.


You also have the burning heart, which is a common symbol in Catholic iconography. (Again, that seemed very odd, and stood out for me.) I don't think burning hearts is part of Japanese funeral rituals, and nothing I found here suggests that it is.

And finally, there's Maeve's crew walking out of the graves, like the dead rising again at the last judgement. Consider the way Tarot decks often depict this:

(I love the imagery with this. Something about the way it's so literally depicted. I generally am attracted to the aesthetics of tarot decks, but this one in particular is a favorite of mine.)

Perhaps the bodies found in the lake will be resurrected at the Mesa? Note the presence of water in the card. This would mean the damage control unit was fucked, by the way.

heheh... I didn't really come out and specifically say it because it's so common a theme, but I thought of that as I was typing my last post. So it's cool that you were able to point out other things I didn't even really consider (or in the case of the burning heart didn't even know about).

 

[Beorn]

IDK I think the show is getting too complicated for me to follow without binge watching.

 

[chubber]

IDK I think the show is getting too complicated for me to follow without binge watching.

I think so too. Similar to when the reimagined Battlestar Galactica try to explore more in Season 3. I hope, that this little bit that they are showed, worlds, was enough and not to add more characters. I never understood why Westworld was considered the main world, or why everything started in Westworld. I guess they will expand more on this later.

 

[Forever]

Finally caught up, the show is a bit predictable at this point or I’m just getting better at how things turn out.

It’s becoming kind of cheesy. But I was really impressed with the ending of season 1

 

[chubber]

Finally caught up, the show is a bit predictable at this point or I’m just getting better at how things turn out.

It’s becoming kind of cheesy. But I was really impressed with the ending of season 1

I'm waiting to see who is right, Ford, where he says machines are just machines, or when Arnold/Bernard said they are more than that and achieving consciences is real.

 

[Forever]

I'm waiting to see who is right, Ford, where he says machines are just machines, or when Arnold/Bernard said they are more than that and achieving consciences is real.

Something tells me they’ll leave it up to the viewer :|

 

[chubber]

Something tells me they’ll leave it up to the viewer :|

Yeah i guess the whole theme is based on, if you can't tell, does it matter.

I was wondering the matrix/base zero, with the cradle was also explored, I wonder if that had anything to do with the topic Elon Musk was talking while at the time dating one of the actresses. He also said something along the lines of, should you care if you are in a simulation or not. Because the jacuzzi will just be ruined with that conversation.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

heheh... I didn't really come out and specifically say it because it's so common a theme, but I thought of that as I was typing my last post. So it's cool that you were able to point out other things I didn't even really consider (or in the case of the burning heart didn't even know about).

Yes.... I've seen that in Latin American churches I've visited. For all I know, it might not even be in U.S. Catholic churches; I haven't really been in any of those.

Props for Beethoven's 7th, aka theme from Zardoz


So, judging from the preview, we're going to learn things about the Ghost Nation next week. Cool.

 

[chubber]

Yes.... I've seen that in Latin American churches I've visited. For all I know, it might not even be in U.S. Catholic churches; I haven't really been in any of those.

Props for Beethoven's 7th, aka theme from Zardoz


So, judging from the preview, we're going to learn things about the Ghost Nation next week. Cool.

because of

the scene where the Ghost Nation grabs Maeve's child?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

because of

the scene where the Ghost Nation grabs Maeve's child?

no... because of

 

[Qlip]

I thoroughly enjoyed the first season. It was mysterious, dreamy, smart, strongly thematic and had a somewhat self-contained ending. The second season is a mess IMO.

 

[chubber]

I thoroughly enjoyed the first season. It was mysterious, dreamy, smart, strongly thematic and had a somewhat self-contained ending. The second season is a mess IMO.

What makes it a mess for you?

 

[Totenkindly]

Episode 7 was a huge exposition episode, although a few MORE questions got raised to replace those that were answered. (like, what's the deal with Bernard the Many?)

I thoroughly enjoyed the first season. It was mysterious, dreamy, smart, strongly thematic and had a somewhat self-contained ending. The second season is a mess IMO.

It's funny how people can have distinctly different experiences.

The second season is definitely not like the first season, although that is not necessarily problematic. It's just thematically and structurally different, to me, with different levels of questions being asked. There's also been a shift in the existential presentation of the two leads (Dolores and Maeve), where Dolores is more a force of nature and someone moving the plotting along rather than explored as deeply and fundamentally as she was in Season 1. But yes, I'd say a more plot-based season altogether so far from the big picture view. We learn how it ends in the opener. But we have no idea how anything got there or what it actually MEANS, hence we're now walking through all the permutations that were taken to reach the ending.

The actors definitely aren't the weak link if there is one, they're all pretty solid and sometimes exquisite. Some really good work being done by them, although it's a shame Talulah Riley didn't get to do a ton this season, aside from this last bit in Episode 7 where she was mesmerizing. Regardless of whether attitudes have shifted about Dolores, Evan Rachel Wood was just stunning in Episode 7 when she is moving between Peter Abernathy and Charlotte Hale. There was too many "convenient interruptions" in this episode unfortunately, as the scenes themselves were unnerving and it felt like the writers ended up just being teases / not having a cajones to actually carry through with something irrevocable... the scenes themselves made my skin crawl, though.