Toxic Feminism

[Coriolis]

The feminists I work with are actually focused on protecting people's rights and working toward legal reform. Luckily I know these particular ones via local trans rights groups so I didn't have to worry as much about dealing with TERFs and fainting couch feminists who think white women are still an oppressed group in the first world.

White women are still oppressed, even in the first world. The recent demise of abortion rights just underscores that. Threats to bodily autonomy can't be viewed as much else. Women of color, or with handicaps, or in the LGBTQ spectrum, experience additional oppression, as do women in other parts of the world. The feminists I know focus on protecting people's rights as well, including the rights of men who sometimes get their own short end of the stick, thanks to sexism.

 

[Luminous]

I don't see what's wrong with people learning to be accepting of whatever physical vessel they find themselves stuck in. There is so much about our appearance and our bodies in general that is out of our control, or at least out of our direct control, and punishing ourselves and others for not looking a certain way is just unhealthy and leads to unhappiness of varied kinds. So I think that accepting, if not celebrating, our bodies, whatever we look like, is healthy and good, and it's not incongruent with trying to be healthy.

I feel there’s a double standard in regard to body positivity. We’re now seeing a demand for more female body types to be celebrated, yet the standard on male beauty is still rather narrow and limited to tall and built (but not too muscular). I know there was talk of the “dad bod” being more appreciated, but every example of it I’ve seen given by women is still some fit, older actor who is just slightly husky. Real dad bods are generally considered unattractive. Can speak from personal experience of going from fat and flabby and getting zero attention from female coworkers to slender with defined arms and shoulders and regularly receiving positive attention from many of the same coworkers who previously ignored me

You must realize that there is a huge difference between accepting or celebrating and being sexually attracted.

 

[Red Herring]

You must realize that there is a huge difference between accepting or celebrating and being sexually attracted.

On top of that there are many contexts where somebody's body is simply irrelevant and none of your business. For example, for some reason the physical appearance of female politicians is still commented on more and scrutinized to a much higher degree than that of male politicians. How is that relevant? A government minister or spokesperson for a parliamentary group could have the size of an elephant, green hair, blue skin and three eyes and six legs for all I care as long as they are competent. Yet professional media is often all "what did they wear?" and social media is all "she's too fat to get any".

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I don't see what's wrong with people learning to be accepting of whatever physical vessel they find themselves stuck in. There is so much about our appearance and our bodies in general that is out of our control, or at least out of our direct control, and punishing ourselves and others for not looking a certain way is just unhealthy and leads to unhappiness of varied kinds. So I think that accepting, if not celebrating, our bodies, whatever we look like, is healthy and good, and it's not incongruent with trying to be healthy.

Agreed. Which is why people who have the means and ability to be healthy and improve should never have bandwagoned on a movement designed for accepting those traits not within our control.

Somewhat unrelated but the worst examples of body shaming I have seen come from right wing men (i.e. guys making fun of AOC for her teeth; which i don't even get because she's an absolute cutie; guys making fun of the appearances of pretty much any progressive female politician or celeb) and left wing women (i.e. shaming Trump for a less than average dick after that Stormy Daniels scandal, et al. Trump is a shitbag, but this sort of thing sends a shitty message to progressive male allies, many of whom struggle themselves with dysmorphia related to their body and/or penis size. They are going to find it harder to take seriously movements like body positivity when many on their own side reveal such an obvious double standard. r/menslib, which is generally allied with the left and feminists, had a really good thread on this exact problem not too long ago)

In general, people can stand to be more sensitive about physical traits. They should be irrelevant in any political or idea-based discussion. Fully agree it's unfair female politicians get the double standard in regards to their appearance, but don't pretend this type of shaming and scrutiny is limited to their experience.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

One issue that disturbs me is that when people reject someone for doing a behavior they are rejecting, they will often default to body shaming. That framing with appearance is deeply destructive to society, and cyclically reinforcing.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

One issue that disturbs me is that when people reject someone for doing a behavior they are rejecting, they will often default to body shaming. That framing with appearance is deeply destructive to society, and cyclically reinforcing.

It's ugly in every form. Most people have probably engaged in it at least once (I admit it's something I've had to consciously work to stop doing). It really has to stop. It further amplifies phenomena like the halo effect. We lavish praise on people just for happening to win the genetic lottery at birth.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

It's ugly in every form. Most people have probably engaged in it at least once (I admit it's something I've had to consciously work to stop doing). It really has to stop. It further amplifies phenomena like the halo effect. We lavish praise on people just for happening to win the genetic lottery at birth.

Well said, and I can't remember a specific instance, but I have likely done it because it is so normalized, but I hate it.

Just as an applied example, I followed all that Amber Heard/Johnny Depp stuff and have seen people make scathing comments about both. I recently saw a discussion about posts being really cruel about Johnny's face, and more often the body shaming is for Amber. I don't agree with her behavior and know she was over the line and needed to go to court and not have a favorable outcome, but even though I have anger about her behaviors, I still get a sick feeling when people get so cruel about her physicality. I've heard really awful stuff lately and she is not guilty of looking any particular way. She is innocent of her body. It's not okay to throw bottles at people, cut off their finger, and then make up bizarre accusations that couldn't happen in reality, but it is not okay to body shame her or anyone.

It is extreme cruelty to try to push someone into the state of mind of self loathing and body repulsion. It's easier to feel physical pain and assault than that feeling that your Being, your physical self is worthless. Maybe some people have such body confidence that they cannot imagine the possible pain they cause.

I just wish people would be nice.

 

[The Cat]

 

[Coriolis]

Wow. This girl is just a brat. I usually am very strict about not calling adult females "girls", but she is sure acting like one in the worst way. She points to "facts" when it suits her, and ignores them when it doesn't. Her few legitimate points (rape accusations require evidence) are lost in the sea of dismissive tautologies and flippant grandstanding. At least she is honest enough to thank "feminism" for her ability to control her monthly cycles with birth control, all the while dismissing the legitimate concerns of feminists. "Third wave feminism"? I never did follow the different waves, trends, and perversions of what I consider true feminism: the notion that women should have the same rights, responsibilities, and opportunities as men.

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, it's true that Buzzfeed is like ass cancer, I suppose -- it's pretty terrible across the board.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I think some of the problem here is that social media relies on negative, combative expression as click bait. As a result there is a negative spiral downwards where that poster might have seen some extremist "feminist" video shorts because that's how they can get views, and then she responds with the same filtering process with increasing cherry picking and extremism.

I have seen some unreasonable memes that are supposed to represent feminism, but warping away from the actual principles. One that stuck in my mind from FB said, "Imagine what the world would be like without any men", and then women responded with how they would go on walks at night without fear, wear more sexually provocative clothes on walks, etc. While my understanding is that there are higher statistics of physical assault from men, I would personally not feel safe walking alone at night with only women in the world. I've seen plenty of female violence and recently crossed the street instead of passing a woman (it's my rule to avoid crossing paths with any strangers) and she started laughing manically, and I realized she was drugged out of her mind, so I was glad I kept a distance. I also saw really violent fist fights between girls in 7th grade through high school. Some people are being unreasonable in a "feminist" position and it is a problem for people who care about the actual principles of equality.

I feel like it's getting worse. Before coming here I checked youtube and most of the channels I was following have gotten worse in the past couple of months. They are less reasonable and more combative.

I recently watched an analysis of social media that describe how it relies on negative, combative communication and tends to filter and exaggerate those qualities. That particular video represents many qualities social media filters for in terms of look, content, style, etc. Basically speaking in the snarkiest tone possible with stuffed animals in the background and wearing heavy makeup.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

fwiw: I don't have anything against heavy makeup and understand it can help make videos look sharper on tiny phone screens. I wear kinda heavy eyeliner particularly on video. I was thinking of its contrast with the stuffed animals.

The snarky voices with grating tones and rhythms (that are bit reminiscent of childhood playground bullying) are the biggest universal social media style - men and women. The person in this video has that, but I also think Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro have childish snarky style voices that I can't listen to for their timbre and rhythm alone. I often find those voices grating in any gender, but they really get a lot of views and likes, which is a complete mystery to me.

​

 

[ceecee]

I think some of the problem here is that social media relies on negative, combative expression as click bait. As a result there is a negative spiral downwards where that poster might have seen some extremist "feminist" video shorts because that's how they can get views, and then she responds with the same filtering process with increasing cherry picking and extremism.

I have seen some unreasonable memes that are supposed to represent feminism, but warping away from the actual principles. One that stuck in my mind from FB said, "Imagine what the world would be like without any men", and then women responded with how they would go on walks at night without fear, wear more sexually provocative clothes on walks, etc. While my understanding is that there are higher statistics of physical assault from men, I would personally not feel safe walking alone at night with only women in the world. I've seen plenty of female violence and recently crossed the street instead of passing a woman (it's my rule to avoid crossing paths with any strangers) and she started laughing manically, and I realized she was drugged out of her mind, so I was glad I kept a distance. I also saw really violent fist fights between girls in 7th grade through high school. Some people are being unreasonable in a "feminist" position and it is a problem for people who care about the actual principles of equality.

I feel like it's getting worse. Before coming here I checked youtube and most of the channels I was following have gotten worse in the past couple of months. They are less reasonable and more combative.

I recently watched an analysis of social media that describe how it relies on negative, combative communication and tends to filter and exaggerate those qualities. That particular video represents many qualities social media filters for in terms of look, content, style, etc. Basically speaking in the snarkiest tone possible with stuffed animals in the background and wearing heavy makeup.

I think that expecting to find nuanced, rational discussions about feminism on You Tube or any social media, is rather pointless. There is no money in that and the entire point is to monetize every asinine thing that can come out of a mouth, regarding feminism. Not to say there isn't excellent discussion on You Tube - there are but not from anyone discussing feminism or anything in its orbit.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I didn't know shoeonhead was still around. Haven't watched much of that style of youtube video in the last couple of years. I do think there's a palce for that sort of reaction video, but we have to be careful we remember that ultimately they fall more in the "edutainment" style of video. I did watch some amazing atheist videos several months back and I was surprised to see what a turn he'd made. Used to be aligned with that reactionary segment of youtubers, but now he's two steps away from quoting Noam Chomsky. He said seeing a relative struggle with the US healthcare system was what pushed him firmly into the left

 

[The Cat]

I didn't know shoeonhead was still around. Haven't watched much of that style of youtube video in the last couple of years. I do think there's a palce for that sort of reaction video, but we have to be careful we remember that ultimately they fall more in the "edutainment" style of video. I did watch some amazing atheist videos several months back and I was surprised to see what a turn he'd made. Used to be aligned with that reactionary segment of youtubers, but now he's two steps away from quoting Noam Chomsky. He said seeing a relative struggle with the US healthcare system was what pushed him firmly into the left

She comes back every few months or so with a new hell world. I like "Mommy's" videos because she doesnt pull punches about how much of a joke everything is and how we're all going to die either laughing or screaming and probably both. It kind of amuses me seeing how different people respond to humorous cynicism in hell. Those who struggle with it so, will have much more fun in hell if they learn to smile to now, because make no mistake...something smells tasty and I'm pretty sure its all of us.
Fircam inte finitus es. ​

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

archive.ph

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

archive.ph

This sort of thing is probably true sometimes, although that list of memes could have been created by anyone wanting to stir others up.

Basically if a person wants a partner who possess something they don't: money, looks, intelligence, etc., good for them if they find it, but they are likely decreasing their chances of forming a relationship. People are entitled to whatever feelings or attractions they experience, but not entitled to a response from someone who possess the trait. If the feeling is you only want an idealized/optimized partner or be alone, then take your chances which will likely result in being alone.

I think this asymmetry of what a person is and what they expect in a partner is a fundamental problem for humanity and would not be limited to overweight women being attracted to sporty guys. The problem definitely happens in reverse and lots of people end up alone because everyone is attracted to the sporty guy and model woman, and are unwilling to love someone like their own self, which could likely be a projection of not being able to love oneself in the first place.

 

[The Cat]

Oldie but a goodie...​

 

[Totenkindly]

"Fetus Deletus... In french -- Effacer!"

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Do teacher and classroom characteristics affect the way in which girls and boys are graded?

Teachers’ evaluations of students do not consider only academic competence, but are imbued with social considerations related to individual teacher and student characteristics, their interactions, ...

www.tandfonline.com

We use Italian data from INVALSI-SNV, providing information on 10th-grade students linked with their teachers. The analysis relies on grade equation models in multilevel regression analysis, with students as first level, teachers/classrooms as second level, and schools as third level. Results show that, when comparing students who have identical subject-specific competence, teachers are more likely to give higher grades to girls. Furthermore, they demonstrate for the first time that this grading premium favouring girls is systemic, as teacher and classroom characteristics play a negligible role in reducing it.