• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

The Elephant and the Rider - Jonathan Haidt's Positive Psychology

Eilonwy

Vulnerability
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
7,051
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I finished Happiness Hypothesis and started Righteous Mind. I think the concept about morality that Haidt proposes has shown up in my thinking as a cycle throughout history of J worldview vs P worldview. It seems to be a self-correcting cycle, though sometimes it takes violence (adversity) to start the pendulum swinging the other way.

I also think that the concept I've tried to propose for the forum is similar. We need some conflict in order to be a healthy community where all types have a voice. There is a point of balance that we would seesaw back and forth upon--sometimes a bit too much order, sometimes a bit too much chaos--sometimes boring, sometimes hostile, but always coming back to that balance. Like any relationship, that means work. Vigilance.

So, so far I agree with Haidt's concepts about morality and virtue. The concept of happiness being in between and being found in alignment of self makes sense but I am still needing to see it in real world examples for it to sink in so I can evaluate.
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
I previously mentioned reciprocity, but the other key thing that Haidt points out about the human mind in order to understand it is that we are all hypocrites. We all lie to ourselves, we think of ourselves and our opinions in a good light, and so on. We are not naturally objective, even (and in my opinion especially) when we think we're being objective. Duke offers some ways of being able to spot that lack of objectivity in ourselves and take it into account.

I think this is an area that is visible to P's in particular but especially Ji dom. There are many things that are not better for the group as a whole, they are simply better for you, but claimed to be the "right" way or best for all involved.
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I think this is an area that is visible to P's in particular but especially Ji dom. There are many things that are not better for the group as a whole, they are simply better for you, but claimed to be the "right" way or best for all involved.

I don't think it's a P thing vs a J thing, though I do see it being an area of focus especially for xNxP types in my experience, because they're the ones I most often see using "hypocrisy" as an argument against whatever they don't like. The hypocrisy is always there, whether or not one happens to agree with a particular opinion.

The difference I see is in style of argumentation. J types are more willing to proactively suggest an opinion and seek agreement from the group, while Ps are less likely to offer opinions but instead shoot down others' opinions without contributing their own. Both sides are doing it based on their own perception of what is best for themselves. So J type hypocrisy is going to be much more visible because they have to make arguments to convince the group. Yes, those arguments contain plenty of hypocrisy, but there really is no other way of getting some kind of cooperation/agreement, especially in large (ultrasocial) groups.

Part of what Haidt points out in the second book is how we use this overall dynamic of discussing what is right and wrong with other people in order to calibrate our sense of morality in an objective way. We're most hypocritical when justifying our opinions/actions to ourselves. We generally start with the elephant's intuitions, those gut reactions that make us think "right" or "wrong" without considering evidence or unique circumstantial factors. Our rider usually hypocritically leaps in and rationalizes that intuitive sense, enough to establish a confirmation bias in our pre-established beliefs. But then, when we need to interact with someone else, when we need to communicate that right or wrong, the other person's elephant will often have a different impression. Moreover, the other person will see our hypocrisy very clearly and point that out. Then we return that favor by pointing out the hypocrisy in the other person's outlook. This feedback loop gradually erases much of the hypocrisy (except for the hypocritical opinions they share as a group!).

This seems to work in reverse, where psychologist can measure an individual becoming more and more objective, depending on how much evaluation by others the individual initially perceives before evaluating something. If just evaluating for oneself, the opinion tends to lack objectivity. If required to present it to a group of like-minded people, it's more objective, but not very. If required to present it to a rigorous vetting process (similar to peer review for scientific papers), the resulting presentation of opinion tends to be its most objective. Society has various means of enforcing objectivity, and pointing out hypocrisy and making one accountable for what one says is part of that process.
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
:happy2:

An interview with the author, on YouTube:



I've only just spotted this during a mild case of insomnia, so I've not watched it through, yet. I thought it would be apropos in this thread to meet the guy who came up with all of these ideas and see how he explains his ideas in person.
 

Eilonwy

Vulnerability
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
7,051
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
First, yes, i am using this quote from the book to support my confirmation bias. I just love the irony of it all.
But if you put individuals together in the right way, such that some individuals can use their reasoning powers to disconfirm the claims of others, and all individuals feel some common bond or shared fate that allows them to interact civilly, you can create a group that ends up producing good reasoning as an emergent property of the social system. This is why it's so important to have intellectual and ideological diversity within any group or institution whose goal is to find truth (such as an intelligence agency or a community of scientists) or to produce good public policy (such as a legislature or advisory board).
And if our goal is to produce good behavior, not just good thinking, then it's even more important to reject rationalism and embrace intuitionism.
 

Eilonwy

Vulnerability
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
7,051
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
:happy2:

An interview with the author, on YouTube:



I've only just spotted this during a mild case of insomnia, so I've not watched it through, yet. I thought it would be apropos in this thread to meet the guy who came up with all of these ideas and see how he explains his ideas in person.

He's quite animated--facial and hand gestures. We already know that I'm biased, so I enjoyed listening to him explain his views and those views make sense to me.

I do have some reservations about how his theories will work in reality. I agree that reputation is a driving factor, but there are different types of reputation that people strive for. Just look at this forum. Who gets to decide what kind of reputation is best, then write the rules to nudge everybody towards that? How do we have the civil conversation among differing elephants? Personally, I think that civil conversation starts when enough riders realize that the elephant is in charge. But even then, it's difficult because the rider easily fools itself into thinking that it already realizes this. I seem very reasonable to myself. :shrug:

Can we actually optimize the self-correction that's already built into the system?
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
He's quite animated--facial and hand gestures. We already know that I'm biased, so I enjoyed listening to him explain his views and those views make sense to me.

I do have some reservations about how his theories will work in reality. I agree that reputation is a driving factor, but there are different types of reputation that people strive for. Just look at this forum. Who gets to decide what kind of reputation is best, then write the rules to nudge everybody towards that? How do we have the civil conversation among differing elephants? Personally, I think that civil conversation starts when enough riders realize that the elephant is in charge. But even then, it's difficult because the rider easily fools itself into thinking that it already realizes this. I seem very reasonable to myself. :shrug:

Can we actually optimize the self-correction that's already built into the system?

I think he is correct in the abstract, but implementing solutions that his abstract analysis points out is fraught with difficulty. For example, even at the simple personal level, it's one thing to know that it's the other person's "elephant" that is making them stubborn and explains why they're stubborn, but the actual work of communicating with such a person remains difficult.

As for self-correction, I think that the main problem has been the extremes of vulnerability on the internet. If you get pegged by an activist group on the internet, they can even get you fired from your job, but they cannot easily be sued for damages. The anonymous person has immunity from retaliation, while the known personality is extremely vulnerable to "feedback". What is missing is checks and balances on the feedback loops. I think they'll evolve in time, but not within the next 5 years or so. More like 10-20 years, as the bullshit becomes obvious - and it becomes easier for people to countersue for abuses.
 

Eilonwy

Vulnerability
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
7,051
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
So, could I make the comparison that Fi/Te thinking tends towards WEIRD (individidualistic) and Fe/Ti tends toward non-WEIRD (groups and institutions)? Actually, the same tendencies show up in many different contexts and those all blend together. What can realistically be said?
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
So, could I make the comparison that Fi/Te thinking tends towards WEIRD (individidualistic) and Fe/Ti tends toward non-WEIRD (groups and institutions)? Actually, the same tendencies show up in many different contexts and those all blend together. What can realistically be said?

No, I'm pretty sure WEIRD is cultural, specifically academically cultural.

Both Fi/Te and Fe/Ti are group oriented, they just relate to groups differently. That was one of the key things I got out of Haidt's books. Reciprocity applies to everyone, group behavior applies to everyone. Some individuals are more ornery and resistant to it than others, but it's built into the human psyche.

In my case, as an INTJ 9, I felt alienated from "groups" insofar as early school was concerned, but I've always felt that I was a part of my family and loved. That early experience left me kind of ornery in this regard, as it seemed to me the point of groups was to exclude other people. I don't feel that way now, as I see the dynamics work out, but when you're a little kid, it kind of affects your whole life outlook.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,196
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Both Fi/Te and Fe/Ti are group oriented, they just relate to groups differently. That was one of the key things I got out of Haidt's books. Reciprocity applies to everyone, group behavior applies to everyone. Some individuals are more ornery and resistant to it than others, but it's built into the human psyche.

In my case, as an INTJ 9, I felt alienated from "groups" insofar as early school was concerned, but I've always felt that I was a part of my family and loved. That early experience left me kind of ornery in this regard, as it seemed to me the point of groups was to exclude other people. I don't feel that way now, as I see the dynamics work out, but when you're a little kid, it kind of affects your whole life outlook.
Sure, group behavior is everywhere and no one is unaffected. I do think, though, that for some people their primary relationship to group behavior is to resist it. I felt the same as you about groups, but had a slightly different family experience. I felt loved and supported by my family in spite of never really fitting in. I always had the sense that they didn't know quite what to do with me, so it was fortunate that I did.

I would have said the point of groups was to impose/enforce some lowest common denominator behavior and beat down those nails that stuck out. (Sort of like "no child left behind" suggests that no child can get ahead.) I doubt I will ever shed that perspective entirely.
 

Eilonwy

Vulnerability
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
7,051
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
No, I'm pretty sure WEIRD is cultural, specifically academically cultural.

Both Fi/Te and Fe/Ti are group oriented, they just relate to groups differently. That was one of the key things I got out of Haidt's books. Reciprocity applies to everyone, group behavior applies to everyone. Some individuals are more ornery and resistant to it than others, but it's built into the human psyche.

In my case, as an INTJ 9, I felt alienated from "groups" insofar as early school was concerned, but I've always felt that I was a part of my family and loved. That early experience left me kind of ornery in this regard, as it seemed to me the point of groups was to exclude other people. I don't feel that way now, as I see the dynamics work out, but when you're a little kid, it kind of affects your whole life outlook.

Yes, we are social creatures and therefore we are wired to be part of a group, but, like everything human, I believe there is probably a bell curve in there somewhere, describing the range of "grouping" behavior. We here at TypoC are not representative of humanity at large in many ways, which is probably why many of us are here in the first place--we observe that we are on the fringes of the majority in the real world, yet we still have the need to be a part of a social group. I would argue, though, that even though the need is there, the mechanism is somehow different.

My rider sucks at explaining what my elephant feels is reality in this case, though. Working off of what I've learned here, it seems to me that Fi/Te, depending on where it falls in the stack, is less compelled to group for the sake of grouping. And what I just wrote isn't accurate, but it's the best way I can explain with words at this time.

I'm in a time crunch and can't process fast enough right now to get my rider up to speed with my elephant. Suffice it to say, even though I don't consider myself much of a group person, even though I do need social groups, I find that there's something in me which compels me to consider the group, ask for group opinions before forming my own, go with the majority whether I agree with them or not, etc. Yes, it could be my elephant was trained that way, but even with age and experience and knowing about other perspectives that aren't as concerned about the group, I still find that it takes a force of will to be an "individualist". And, believe me, what you see here at the forum is somewhat representative of how I am in real life--I am a part of the group, I do participate in the group, but I also hold the group at arms length, so that compulsion is not about being immersed in a group, per se.

I will have to consider if that is related to the 3 types of moral triggers in some way.
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I think Fi "groups differently" than Fe does. Fe is like the dog that comes up to you and frantically suggests that it's time to play now, while Fi is more like the cat that quietly walks up and settles in your lap.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Posting in here to remind myself to finish reading the thread and maybe to actually post in it(!) if possible.
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Confabulation

The Happiness Hypothesis said:
The point of these studies is that moral judgment is like aesthetic judgment. When you see a painting, you usually know instantly and automatically whether you like it. If someone asks you to explain your judgment, you confabulate. You don’t really know why you think something is beautiful, but your interpreter module (the rider) is skilled at making up reasons, as Gazzaniga found in his split-brain studies. You search for a plausible reason for liking the painting, and you latch on to the first reason that makes sense (maybe something vague about color, or light, or the reflection of the painter in the clown’s shiny nose). Moral arguments are much the same: Two people feel strongly about an issue, their feelings come first, and their reasons are invented on the fly, to throw at each other. When you refute a person’s argument, does she generally change her mind and agree with you? Of course not, because the argument you defeated was not the cause of her position; it was made up after the judgment was already made.

Haidt, Jonathan (2006-12-26). The Happiness Hypothesis: Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom (p. 21). Basic Books. Kindle Edition.

Wikipedia said:
Confabulation is distinguished from lying as there is no intent to deceive and the person is unaware the information is false.[4] Although individuals can present blatantly false information, confabulation can also seem to be coherent, internally consistent, and relatively normal.[4]
Most known cases of confabulation are symptomatic of brain damage or dementias, such as aneurysm, Alzheimer's disease, or Wernicke–Korsakoff syndrome (a common manifestation of thiamine deficiency caused by alcoholism).[5] Additionally confabulation often occurs in people who are suffering from anticholinergic toxidrome when interrogated about bizarre or irrational behavior.[6][7]
Confabulated memories of all types most often occur in autobiographical m emory, and are indicative of a complicated and intricate process that can be led astray at any point during encoding, storage, or recall of a memory.[3] This type of confabulation is commonly seen in Korsakoff's syndrome.[8]

The main difference between between Haidt's description and Wikipedia's is that the Wikipedia article is concerned with the pathological issues w/r to confabulation. As Haidt explains, the confabulation is always there. It's just that for a healthy person, the confabulation isn't only invisible to the individual, but it's pretty much invisible to everyone else, too, because it often results in a completely plausible (and perhaps even close to factual) explanation of shared reality.

Awesome summary of confabulation: https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/what-is-a-mind/0/steps/9266

I think this is a very significant insight for understanding the human psyche. When you understand that to the degree that any sort of cognitive dissonance occurs, people will confabulate to account for the dissonance. This isn't a "wrong" behavior of the mind, it's just occasionally maladaptive. Normally, we confabulate, then confabulate again, and again, iteratively, as we get closer to a more and more true understanding of things. Confabulation is just the mind doing its job of trying to understand the world. When that understanding is incomplete, it is easy to see how the confabulation doesn't work right, but it's not working right because something is missing (the man's memory, in the case of the link, for example). But you can see that even in that extreme case of the man's missing memory, the confabulation is doing its very best to make sense of reality. It just happens to be wrong.

We can see confabulation at work in our dreams. We can awake from a dream that makes perfect sense while we are dreaming, but upon reflection, the dream makes no sense at all. While we are dreaming, we are confabulating all the random thoughts that occur while we are asleep, turning them into a narrative. Only under the cold light of reality does the narrative become revealed as being complete fantasy.

But because confabulation is always at work, because it is an essential part of the process of how our mind makes sense out of the world, we need to understand how it can fail. We need to be able to see the difference between a conspiracy theory and a realistic analysis of systemic problems, for example. We can develop tools to catch ourselves when we confabulate, spotting the nonsense before we start asserting it as truth to others. And, finally, we rely on other people to point out our confabulations to ourselves, being called out on our BS helps us tune our interpretations of the world to be more accurate.

So yes, those people who morally disagree with you are confabulating when they explain their logic to you, just as you are confabulating when you explain your moral principles to them. Each of you can see how the other is stretching their principles to fit the facts, as opposed to coming up with principles that actually fit the facts.

This is the essence of confirmation bias, and it is the key thing that we need to get past if we're going to discuss morality civilly with one another.

One thing I really like about the concept, and the video I link highlights this: people who confabulate are stating falsehoods, but they are not lying. There is no intent to deceive. Once you realize this, then the temptation to regard your moral opponent as evil or stupid (mostly) goes away. You then have the tools to explain your understanding in their terms, understanding their belief system and how your beliefs map to theirs.

We are all hypocrites, not because we are morally bankrupt, but precisely because we are all trying to understand the world, and we simply do not have access to enough information or processing power to truly understand everything about the world.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Re: group behavior: I am obviously a very group-oriented person, but I'm not very oriented towards the needs of the group, unless I know the group well. I mean, it's good when the group is happy, but as a Te-dom, my natural inclination is to de-personalize the group and manage them as a logistical unit.

Re: the book and the concept overall: The key metaphor isn't really working for me at all. I don't see how the "elephant and rider" concept is any more or less useful than Jung's declaration that if we don't make the unconscious conscious, it will direct our lives and we will call it fate.

That being said, I should read the book before I make any final conclusions.
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
953
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Re: group behavior: I am obviously a very group-oriented person, but I'm not very oriented towards the needs of the group, unless I know the group well. I mean, it's good when the group is happy, but as a Te-dom, my natural inclination is to de-personalize the group and manage them as a logistical unit.

Re: the book and the concept overall: The key metaphor isn't really working for me at all. I don't see how the "elephant and rider" concept is any more or less useful than Jung's declaration that if we don't make the unconscious conscious, it will direct our lives and we will call it fate.

That being said, I should read the book before I make any final conclusions.

I think the main utility of the metaphor is that it is an attempt to characterize the nature of the conscious and the unconscious mind. Jung's understanding of the unconscious can take you very far, as simply recognizing that you have wants and needs of which you are entirely unaware allows you to handle them better when they do become conscious. Even something as simple as Naomi Quenk's descriptions of being "in the grip" of one's inferior provides a lot of insight.

I think Haidt's descriptions and elephant/rider metaphor go much further than that. In this metaphor, the unconscious isn't some small thing, just a few repressed memories and unpleasant thoughts. It's not the garbage bin of your mind. It IS YOUR MIND. The small part of your mind is the conscious part, and your conscious mind is not in charge. The purpose of your conscious mind is to figure things out, and it does so by the "confabulation" I described earlier, coming up with "reasonable explanations" for things on the fly, so the conscious mind isn't even logical absent a concerted effort to apply logic.

I think that looking at the mind this way makes it much easier to open up the unconscious, and you can start seeing how your unconscious mind interacts with the world in your daily life. You can even catch yourself confabulating (after the fact, of course) and instead of staunchly defending your confabulated understanding, you can say, "Shit! I guess I pulled that out of my ass, didn't I?" and approach the world in a more honest and self-aware way. No, it's not perfect, but I think it gives a good road map to self-understanding overall.

Please do read the book! I would be very interested in your opinions. :)
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
[MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION]: your post on confabulation is a summary of what I mean when I loosely use the phrase, "Everything is subjective". It is said that INFPs are subjectively subjective - iow, what I take away from that is that we are situated within a functional paradigm that gives us a good lens into seeing that what most people pop off as objective is merely subjectivity wearing clothing. That the rationale any given person uses to describe why something is objectively better than something else is subjective, even it makes sense, is factually correct and even reasonable.

We all confabulate, sure; but to me this is more a statement of the obvious than a revelation.
 

SearchingforPeace

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Messages
5,714
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Here is a link to a interview Haidt did.

https://soundcloud.com/onbeing/jona...alism-and-moral-evolution-a-civil-provocation

And a link to the transcript

Transcript: Jonathan Haidt and Melvin Konner — Capitalism and Moral Evolution: A Civil Provocation | On Being

It isn't on the Elephant and the Rider stuff, but interesting nonetheless.

....

I think there’s a bit of perspective problem here on human nature. It’s often said that conservatives have more of a dark view of human nature as being sinful. Liberals are said to have a more positive view of human nature, sort of the John Lennon idea that if we could just get rid of government and religion that we’d all be nice.

Yet at the same time, liberals are so committed to a narrative of oppression and exploitation that they can’t take good news, they can’t accept good news. So, for various reasons, the left and the right are negative in different ways.

....

So here’s the irony: the left generally hates capitalism, but capitalism changes everybody’s values to be more leftist.

.....

Happiness comes from between. It comes from getting the right kind of relationship between yourself and others, yourself and your work — and that’s broadly defined, just some sort of productive activity — and yourself and something larger than yourself. To really flourish, you need to feel that you are part of something big, or something that will leave a mark, that will do something.

....
 

Eilonwy

Vulnerability
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
7,051
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
My angle of fascination with this subject is that "I" feel so real to myself, yet damage some little area of my brain that deals with where my body is spatially and suddenly "I" no longer am contained by my body, but am somewhere outside of it. Damage some other little area of my brain, and "I" might feel like there are three entities inside my head. Humans are amazing!

"That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain by Michael S. Gazzaniga

ETA: The concept behind elephant and rider has been explained in many, many different ways, throughout time. The concept isn't new, but the tools to see what's going on in the brain/body and to modify the story/explanation of that concept so that it maps closer and closer to reality, or at least to whatever reality we humans can perceive, are new.
 

SpankyMcFly

Level 8 Propaganda Bot
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
2,349
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
461
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I'm glad you are enjoying the read. I could only manage like half a chapter per day, because then I'd just sit and stare into space and start thinking about what I'd just read.

Philosophy does this to me :D When I first tried to read Will To Power I just couldn't get through more a dozen pages without wandering off into lala land. Usually I'd spend my time trying to relate how this new information fit with other information.
 
Top