Random political thought thread.

[Virtual ghost]

Marijuana legalization in the U.S. is driven by a few different things, some of which I suppose in Europe might not apply because of history.

What exactly do you mean by this if I can ask ?

 

[Virtual ghost]

Special Election Tuesday to Fill the Congressional Seat Held by George Santos

Dems flipped the seat.
(plus some other races now have known results).

 

[Red Herring]

What exactly do you mean by this if I can ask ?

As far as I know drug use and the different legal punishments for it have a racial angle in the US (as in there are certain drugs more often taken by white and others more often taken by black people and the punishment for the latter tends to be higher)

 

[Virtual ghost]

As far as I know drug use and the different legal punishments for it have a racial angle in the US (as in there are certain drugs more often taken by white and others more often taken by black people and the punishment for the latter tends to be higher)

Ok, I was thinking that something more complicated is behind that claim.

 

[The Cat]

But sure, trust the polls not your eyes.​

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

As far as I know drug use and the different legal punishments for it have a racial angle in the US (as in there are certain drugs more often taken by white and others more often taken by black people and the punishment for the latter tends to be higher)

Yes; in this case it's people of color being sentenced to prison for marijuana-related crimes at a far higher rate. The "war on drugs" is seen (correctly, IMO) by many as part of a racist agenda.

Legalization has created an additional issue, at least in Illinois. Most of the dispensaries are white-owned, which means that the people who were victimized by past policies are not seeing any of the benefits of legalization. Many would argue (and I agree) that this should be redressed.

I don't know what the history is in Continental Europe or even the UK.

 

[Coriolis]

I've never heard anyone use the word woke in a non-pejorative fashion. I also feel that some of the above posts are describing it too proudly. I wouldn't describe fighting for universal healthcare as "woke" (well, I wouldn't use that word to begin with); that affects everyone, not just a specific group.

This post might be a mistake, but it's been rattling around in my brain for a while:

But I would split what it refers to into two groups: things I understand, and things I don't understand. If I had a problem with "woke" it would be that I don't feel free to ask questions about the things I don't understand. I can understand why you should use people's preferred pronouns, I can understand why you shouldn't use ethnic slurs, I can understand why women should be free to pursue any kind of career they want, etc.

The things I don't understand, well, I am under the impression that if I were to ask questions; I would be subject to heavy criticism, under the assumption that these are things that any decent person would already know the answer to. This mentality puzzles and distressed me, in response to the good faith questions that I believe I would make. I would not be asking these questions with a desire to destroy feminism or any equivalent movement. Can't you strengthen a movement by asking questions, by making your thinking stronger and more airtight and resistance to criticism? I'm inclined to think that this could actually be better for a movement. Is that wrong? What about someone terrible by someone stepping back for a moment, and saying, "Hey, I don't get this"?

I suppose they assume that any questions are bad faith questions. I don't see how a movement like that can triumph. If you can't handle good-faith questions, how can you hope to handle the bad faith questions, or the things that are worse than bad faith questions? If you insist it's imperative that everyone already understand something to the degree that such questions are not necessary, how is that good for a movement? You are either going to have a lot of members who don't really understand what they are fighting for, which isn't good, or have a lot of people outright refuse to join, which isn't good. You can't reach out or build something with this mentality.

I don't know the origin of the term "woke", to describe the learned/acquired awareness of social injustices and one's role in helping to right them. Personally I find the term rather stupid for what it means, but that's beside the point. The negative connotations seem to come from those who do not accept the significance or sometimes even the existence of the injustice, and therefore see no need to change or improve anything. Lots of words that mean good things have been saddled with bad baggage similarly (e.g. feminism). We are all better served simply by stating our meaning clearly, without the use of these charged and ambiguous words that too often trigger kneejerk reactions rather than reasoned response.

As for your questions, what do you think would not be well received? Some examples would be helpful.

 

[The Cat]

I don't know the origin of the term "woke", to describe the learned/acquired awareness of social injustices and one's role in helping to right them. Personally I find the term rather stupid for what it means, but that's beside the point. The negative connotations seem to come from those who do not accept the significance or sometimes even the existence of the injustice, and therefore see no need to change or improve anything. Lots of words that mean good things have been saddled with bad baggage similarly (e.g. feminism). We are all better served simply by stating our meaning clearly, without the use of these charged and ambiguous words that too often trigger kneejerk reactions rather than reasoned response.

As for your questions, what do you think would not be well received? Some examples would be helpful.

There's the American Dream.
Then there's the people who woke up.
And those who were never allowed to be asleep.

Regarding its origins...

 

[Red Herring]

I don't know what the history is in Continental Europe or even the UK.

Well, we all have a different history over here. I am not aware of a great historical link like that but of course ethnic minorities tend to belong to a lower income class and there is a strong link between poverty and crime, so migrants tend to have a higher than average crime rate compared to the ethnic majority (remember that most ethnic minorities in Europe are first or second generation migrants from former colonies or other developing nations, some from war-torn countries and many with little formal education).

I am not aware of drug consumption being linked to specific ethnic or cultural groups in Germany, but there is a systemic problem all over Europe with African migrants being trafficked to Europe by coyotes in exchange for endentured labor (sort of like poor Europeans migrating to America in the 19th century who also had to work off the costs of the boat trip). In many cases the men then work as drug dealers and the women as prostitutes (in Spain additional typical jobs for undocumented African migrants are farm helpers and streetvendors of pirated CDs and DVDs or sunglasses and alcohol (well, back when I lived there it was)). Or they are either not allowed to work for legal reasons or can't find a job and then end up selling drugs on the streets.

 

[Coriolis]

Yes, and your arguments are based on things you feel. Obviously, feeling and analysis are used by all human beings to form an opinion. I think your 'worries' about the disabled and such are pure nonsense. The same hue and cry is raised by the anti medically assisted dying crowd. Yet MAID has been legal (in Canada anyways) since 2016. I am certain not one disabled person has been unwillingly euthanized. It's pure emotion based fear mongering usually deployed when no reasonable data to support one's position can be found. However, if the mentally ill are murdering innocent and healthy and productive members of society, they have to be contained. Society does not have infinite resources, sometimes pragmatic decisions have to be made. I am always surprised at the almost zero concern for the victims. Their death is greeted with a collective shrug of indifference. It's like the ivory tower moralists think "well I committed no crime so who cares, but if I support the death penalty I might feel some guilt, best make my decision 100% based on protecting my own delicate sensibilities".

Don't confuse emotion with values. Most of our decision making is informed by our personal values, that is, subjective judgment. In fact, I don't think it is possible to make a decision without it. This, too, can be a rational, thought-based process.

I was talking about this with my hubby earlier today and about how the civil rights movement back in the day mobilized people to get folks voting whom certain people preferred to not go voting. Maybe that's what's needed today. The country might look mighty divided but voter turnout is so low by international standards that there is a huge reservoir of people that just don't make their vote count.

Yes, I am aware that the system is tweaked and in many states people are actively discouraged from helping others get to vote (WTF!? Not being allowed to hand out water to people waiting in line to vote? Did I get that right?!)..... But at least this time around the chances of getting murdered by the goddam KKK while doing the good work has diminished somewhat.


And, yes, you guys still tend to set the trends. And whether or not you are onboard with missions affecting the entire planet like the fight against climate change or the pushback against authoritarian power grabs does matter.

There are groups, such as the League of Women Voters, whose primary mission is voter empowerment, which includes mobilizing especially underrepresented groups to vote, as well as challenging impediments to voting. Some of the measures the League is at the forefront of opposing include:

• exclusionary voter ID laws
• reduction of early in-person voting hours, especially on Sundays when historically black church congregations have given the elderly and disabled a ride to the polling place after the service
• shortened deadlines for returning an absentee ballot
• removing dropboxes for returning absentee ballots in person
• requiring voters to put their own absentee ballot into the dropbox, so no more dropping one off for Grandma or your elderly homebound neighbor
• purging voter rolls of people who have not voted recently, without notifying them so they know to re-register

And yes, in some locations, approaching voters waiting in line to offer snacks or water was prohibited. These were places where lines were very long, with voters often waiting hours outside in whatever weather, accompanied by their young children. I have personally witnessed voters seeing the long lines and just leaving, because they know they cannot wait there that long. Is this situation deliberately engineered to discourage voting? Or is it simply tolerated, because authorities are willing or even eager to lose the kinds of votes that would be lost?

I don't know if anyone has been compiling statistics on how many voters are effectively disenfranchised through these measures. They disproportionately affect the poor, elderly, and disabled, especially people of color. They also affect young people who are often in school away from home, or recently/frequently moving house. There are quite reliable statistics on voter fraud over the years, with many numbers in the single digits of cases, most of which are resolved as simple errors (voter moved and neglected to register in new location).

I had no problem being asked what I was meaning by woke. Because it has two definitions these days. The original definition which Coriolis mentioned and I have no problem with people with that kind of mindset. However, per JVD, woke is now more commonly used in the pejorative fashion, and indeed, that is how I was using it and tend to use the term in general. As a catch all condemnation of what I consider to be blind, non well thought out, virtue signaling nonsense combined with a holier than thou political correct overtone (never state a view that may offend someone). I consider those kind of woke people daft. And they are very common these days. So it's a good catch all term to describe that kind of thinking. The woke mind virus as it is also referred to.

My usage is not the original definition of woke and I am aware of it. Just like gay is much more commonly used to define sexual orientation vs it's original definition of festive. So I am fine with Coriolis seeking clarity of how I am using the term or we might have trouble understanding each other. S/he can generally assume I am using woke in the pejorative fashion.

The religious thing I had no problem with either. I'm not religious and that's just the way I am. Although I find it neither here nor there for political discussions. I mean, Trump is the favorite of most of the religious right, and that guy is all selfishness, condemnation, hate and fear mongering. There is not a charitable or 'love thy neighbor' bone in his body. In fact, if I was a believer in biblical prophesy, I would say Trump ticks all the boxes as a candidate for the antichrist. And yet many so called Christians in the USA seem to love him. Go figure.

You are completely correct about the hypocrisy of these so-called Christians. If they really wanted a president who was a good Christian, morally sound, etc. they would have re-elected Jimmy Carter. I recently read an article about Carter as an example of the "evangelical road not taken", namely living a life that is actually Christ-like, asking every day about every thing: "What would Jesus do?" and then doing your best to act that way. Far too many evangelicals have compromised their personal spiritual integrity for the chance to try to legislate their own morality and force it on everyone else. These same folks would be outraged if followers of any other faith tried to do that. Again, hypocrisy at its best.

As for the rest: as I said above, dispense with the catchwords and jargon, and just state your meaning plainly. This is a general directive, not aimed at you specifically. What you point out simply highlights the trouble caused when people do not do this.

Regarding marijuana:

Alcohol is legal almost everywhere except Islamic countries. Alcohol can cause many health problems, too, but has the advantage of centuries of tradition behind it. Too much marijuana is probably not good for you, but it's the same for alcohol.

Marijuana legalization in the U.S. is driven by a few different things, some of which I suppose in Europe might not apply because of history.

I agree, but then I tend to start from the rather libertarian position that everyone has the right to do anything they want. The laws and regulations we build on top of that to avoid conflict and keep society civil should be consistent (why marijuana and not alcohol?) and should bring real benefit to society at large, for the cost in individual liberty. This is my objection to many gun control measures. They cannot be shown actually to reduce gun violence. Even the attempt to consider such evidence is often attacked, similar to the reaction to your unasked questions. This is no way to address a real problem.

 

[SensEye]

As for the rest: as I said above, dispense with the catchwords and jargon, and just state your meaning plainly. This is a general directive, not aimed at you specifically. What you point out simply highlights the trouble caused when people do not do this.

No problem. I think I generally do this. I had to read back in the thread to find the subject that triggered you to ask me what I meant by woke. In that case, I was categorizing what I perceived to be ceecee's general political position. So I think it applied well in the general sense in that instance. But on any specific policy issue, I am happy to state my position (and the reasons for it) clearly.

As far as weed legalization, Canada has had it since 2018. Near as I can tell it has made no impact on broader society. Not that the Maude Flanders of the world don't raise a hue and cry about it (but they would support prohibition too). I think weed usage has ticked up a little (just due to convenience) but it's not like society is awash in pot heads. It was pretty simple to obtain weed illegally if you wanted it (and has been for decades). Besides, weed seems no more harmful than alcohol for recreational (i.e. occasional use). If you get addicted to anything, it's generally bad for you. Critics complain there is still a black market for weed. I think it still might account for 50% of sales. That is because due to regulation and of course taxes on legal businesses the price has to be higher. However, this is true of alcohol too, and there is zero black market alcohol. That is just a function of time. I suspect in 20 years or so, once black market customers have diminished, the black market will fade away. So there is the benefit to society of profits from legal weed going into legal businesses (and their employees) and taxes and not into the hands of criminals. In short, I'm all for it.

 

[ceecee]

I'm not convinced a lot of these people are really afraid of "woke" stuff. That's an excuse they give to make a lot of people sympathetic to them. What aspiring militia leader is actually afraid of a rainbow colored beer can? I don't buy it. I think the truth is that they just love populist authoritarianism.

They do what they're told. They all use the same language and the same talking points to the letter. They love being told what to do because in the end, it's much easier to not have to give any thought to things. To not take any responsibility and just give everything over to someone else. I mean, that term - it's in Gods hands - that's the identical thing. Can't be held accountable when Jesus is driving the car or whatever gibberish they come up with.

As far as "woke" is concerned - I have no issue being labeled that way. At. All. But people who use it as a pejorative need to come up with something new. At least in the US, Republicans are losing due to its overuse (see Ron DeSantis).

 

[The Cat]

The stage is set.​

 

[Virtual ghost]

The stage is set.​

And when I said that Trump + legal death penalty is bad combination some people here gave me the weird look.

 

[The Cat]

And when I said that Trump + legal death penalty is bad combination some people here gave me the weird look.

Yeah I get weird looks when I tell people the camps and prisons are already built too. The way I figure it is there's things people cant believe and things people desperately don't want to believe. Its mildly shocking how often the obvious facts of the matter and the truths at the heart of them fall into these two categories. There's been a definite psy op on what people notice and don't around these parts in the last 20 years its ramped up.

 

[Virtual ghost]

David Cameron won’t ‘lecture’ US on Ukraine … after Trump ally tells him to ‘kiss my ass’


Crazy stuff.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Yeah I get weird looks when I tell people the camps and prisons are already built too. The way I figure it is there's things people cant believe and things people desperately don't want to believe. Its mildly shocking how often the obvious facts of the matter and the truths at the heart of them fall into these two categories. There's been a definite psy op on what people notice and don't around these parts in the last 20 years its ramped up.

As I said before: I wasn't born in a democracy and thus I pretty clearly see when the writing is on the wall. There is no point in denying the obvious conclusions.

 

[The Cat]

As I said before: I wasn't born in a democracy and thus I pretty clearly see when the writing is on the wall. There is no point in denying the obvious conclusions.

I'd be able to worry about it a whole lot less if more of my countrymen would worry just a tiny bit more.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I'd be able to worry about it a whole lot less if more of my countrymen would worry just a tiny bit more.

Yeah, that is how the math works when it comes to this sort of things.

 

[The Cat]

American National News Outlets, Where you at?
We got streets, we got rooftops, and what the fuck are y'all shouting from them?
We got newspapers. We Got upwards of three 24 hour seven days a week news networks, and what are they talking about?
Ive seen Reptilians get more news coverage and we dont even exist.
I know you're not afraid to clutch thy pearls before swine because I watch your commercials.
We should be better than pie in the face comedy. We certainly need to do better than pie in the face news coverage.​