Lana del Rey as Pop Culture Representation of Divine Feminine and Rejected Archetypes

[1487610420]

Do you really know anything about Lana del Rey, or Lizzy Grant before she was famous? You're just disregarding me, is what it seems like, because what I'm telling you is that Lana del Rey has a unique, complex sound. She had her own style before she was famous. SO, the pop produced by Perry, Swift, and Trainor is definitely simpler and louder. And I said I did like some of their songs. BUT I consider them pop performers, while I consider Elizabeth Grant an artist, like Adele or Amy Winehouse. Katy, Taylor and Meghan all have borrowed from the style Lana had before she even became famous. Visually, she was a trend setter. Musically none of them can match her - though Taylor Swift actually used to write her own songs, none of them have the complexity of Lana on Ultraviolence, or Honeymoon. Taylor BLATANTLY went from this cute, shy, hipster girl to seriously lifting a little too much from Lana. Wildest Dreams is like Wal Mart knock off, of an original designed dress. I also noticed Taylor went "darker" after Lana, too, though Blank Space is characteristically perky for how psychotic it is (the last Taylor Swift song I may ever enjoy, she really bothers me on a fundamental level now).

If you aren't actually familiar with all of these things, how can you even propose to make such a generalized statement?

fact: ur sx dom blindsight
fact: ur enamorated with LDR
fact: ur wrong

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

So this isn't on topic but reading this thread and your in depth explanations on Lana [MENTION=22644]Thelassa[/MENTION] reminds me a little of Patrick Bateman's soliloquies on music before he kills Paul Allen (Jared Leto).

I find that hilarious for some reason. But I also hope you see the humor in it, too.

 

[Thalassa]

fact: ur sx dom blindsight
fact: ur enamorated with LDR
fact: ur wrong

Actually it's more like you're attempting to talk about a subject you know nothing about, and just asserted your pedestrian casual observation as if it were an expert opinion of women's music in the 2010's.


I mean there is nothing I can do about it. It's interesting to me, because I believe you used to type as NTP, but you appear to overestimate your Se, which suggests NTJ.

Aren't you the same person who tried to troll me about her being fat in another thread?

In the beginning of her career, Elizabeth Grant wrote things like this:

I'm not saying it's her best song, but let's use this as a bar of her original personality.

And compare it to what Swift was writing early in her career:

And YES, both of them began as song writers and composers with their guitars....point being, Taylor has always been perky, poppy, and straight forward. Elizabeth Grant has either always been experimental or dark, with the exception of working with some hip hop producers on tracks like Diet Mountain Dew.

This is the kind of thing Lana releases now:

This is the kind of thing Taylor Swift releases now:

Swifts music is still simple, loud and perky. ..but now she's trying this whole "artsy, dark, psycho bitch" thing now. I can't even bring myself to post Wildest Dreams because it's such a carbon copy of earlier Lana songs like Young and Beautiful, or Blue Jeans, except musically and lyrically not as good.

 

[Thalassa]

So this isn't on topic but reading this thread and your in depth explanations on Lana [MENTION=22644]Thelassa[/MENTION] reminds me a little of Patrick Bateman's soliloquies on music before he kills Paul Allen (Jared Leto).

I find that hilarious for some reason. But I also hope you see the humor in it, too.

I LOVE THAT SCENE. Except I think the point of Patrick Bateman's speech is that he was being inauthentically pretentious, in keeping with his entire character. The scene was only funny because it was Huey Lewis and the News, it would have been a lot less funny if it had been Talking Heads or the Smiths.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I listened to The Blackest and I like it. I could see that being a Tori Amos song. Or her covering it.

Also, very Rosemary's Baby.

 

[Thalassa]

I found Noir, and I could see that insecurity behind the image she puts up and could relate to it in the sense that it really feels like a black hole when you don't exist to someone. I used it on a thread but then no one replied and I felt really embarrassed/ashamed to have shared it. I could be wrong but I really see her as very insecure and troubled. She is quite obviously anxious withthat stage fright for example, her stunted facial expressions which I feel like are because of very deep pervasive feeling of shame.

I pointed all those things out and people started comparing her to Taylor Swift, and I...
I mean I could be wrong but I really don't see Taylor Swift as troubled whatsoever. Not that she doesn't experience pain and heartbreak, it's just that when Lana talks about "madness" it is nowhere close to the same thing as TS' "blank space" for example, it just feels so contrived. I explained that Taylor seems to be talking about regular life experiences, but for Lana being mad isn't just "I am insane!" image. She feels bad about it, imo. But they got really defensive, saying I can't know for sure.
I can't, but who people are tends to show through, and I just don't see TS coming from a dark, painful, haunted place in her self. She is healthier, imo, and that's not a bad thing.

Yes I understand. I think Lana comforts a lot of insecurities in her fans, by literally hugging and kissing them at shows, wiping people's tears, she's really amazing. ..and I think she learned that love and humility from her own deep insecurities. ..I think it's likely due to the intensity of her emotions, her early struggles of not just drinking but drinking heavily and alone...and the fact that she overcame those things made her stronger and more compassionate. She still does things like crying on stage, but she claims she's a happier person overall now in interviews. I remember her comments that the media never wants her to smile, but honestly I saw a recent photo of her shopping on the 4th and she gave them the evil eye, I don't think she likes the media, because of how they've smeared her. She looked so pissed, then in the other turned to her sister.

Taylor Swift is likely an ESFJ and I do not know how "balanced" she really is, but yes her newest music feels very contrived. A make over is fine, but it's like she's pretending to be someone she's not, and not artfully.

I found Blank Space pretty funny though with the video, and I think she intended it to be humorous.

Something about both of them I used to find very approachable, and kind. I no longer see Swift as approachable, or authentic. I wasn't like her biggest fan, but yes I liked Taylor Swift for who she was a few years ago. Not anymore.

I honestly feel like Lana's music gets me through some of the most difficult moments of my life, and a lot of her real hardcore fans say the same. Some even say she prevented their suicide. People used to feel the same about old jazz and blues singers back in the day, Amy Winehouse had a similar coping mechanism with old blues and jazz, but sadly her addiction overcame her.

 

[Thalassa]

I listened to The Blackest and I like it. I could see that being a Tori Amos song. Or her covering it.

Also, very Rosemary's Baby.

My first obsession was Tori Amos in my teens. In fact I've said before that I've liked many musicians or bands, but I haven't liked anyone as much as I like Lana since Tori Amos in high school. I like Lana more though. I don't think I ever understood people who were in love with Madonna, Elvis or Barbara Streisand, but now I do.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

My first obsession was Tori Amos in my teens. In fact I've said before that I've liked many musicians or bands, but I haven't liked anyone as much as I like Lana since Tori Amos in high school. I like Lana more though. I don't think I ever understood people who were in love with Madonna, Elvis or Barbara Streisand, but now I do.

I was a HUGE Tori fan, too. I had all her B-sides. That was prior to mp3's, you know, so imports were $.

I grew out of Tori a bit. She reminds me of a certain time in my life. Being 16. I was a hardcore into music.

She's one of those artists that helps you through some things and when you get passed them, you naturally leave them behind because of the connections. If that makes sense. Lana is the same way for me, there is such intensity. It's music you have to concentrate on.

Right now, I'm too into Pink Floyd recently. It's funny because I hated them at 16. Like, hated!

Now, I'm falling in love with them. So...everything comes full circle.

But I just watched some videos of Tori and I'll probably re-visit.

You could add her to this subject matter and it could fit...they have many similarities!

Anyway, this has been pleasant rambling. Lol.

 

[anticlimatic]

I think you don't know the difference between subjective and objective criticism, I don't care what you think her type is, or anything else really, since you're awful and completely off topic.

Nothing in this post has anything to do with Lana Del Rey. You're more off topic than I ever was.

 

[kyuuei]

Goddess archetype. Archetypes. Art. Some people are writing their dissertations on her music, but thank you for at least staying on topic, unlike some others.

Actually just to be clear again, I said goddess archetype, not that I literally believe she is a goddess. And by "mainstream women" I didn't mean radio play, I meant patriarchal Virgin/Wife/Mother/Good girl/Crone...the rejected archetypes such as Whore/Mistress/Bad girl/Needy-Dependent/Sexually Aggressive/Mentally Ill/Wild Woman/Lesbian, etc.

Sure, but like I said she's. .. just a singer to me. I think any goddess has something to be striking about and enamored about. I don't see it in her, but I'm probably not the person to ask either.

I see those characters in her music definitely. Still, I dunno how well she represents those groups despite giving them a voice. Which is honestly pretty good in and of itself. She still looks pretty mainstream to me, the average Joe outsider looking in.

Can't say I get it, but then it probably was never meant for me to begin with.

 

[Thalassa]

Sure, but like I said she's. .. just a singer to me. I think any goddess has something to be striking about and enamored about. I don't see it in her, but I'm probably not the person to ask either.

I see those characters in her music definitely. Still, I dunno how well she represents those groups despite giving them a voice. Which is honestly pretty good in and of itself. She still looks pretty mainstream to me, the average Joe outsider looking in.

Can't say I get it, but then it probably was never meant for me to begin with.

Right...she gives them a voice. ..so looking at that perspective, she's representing those archetypes consciously, and a lot of people who like her enjoy the effort she puts into it.

Love is the illusion that one woman strongly differs from another. ..therefore people run around calling Beyonce Queen B...and as much as I like Lemonade as a short film, and songs like Irreplaceable, Beyonce has never been a "goddess" or a "queen" to me...but I know she has talent, but I think she kind of embodies the sort of mainstream feminism that makes me uncomfortable, and I don't find her style very different or exciting. ...one of my friends used to call Tori Amos, Bjork, and PJ Harvey a goddess trilogy. ..but honestly I was only enamored with Tori Amos intellectually, appreciated Bjorks talent, the only one I found remotely sexy or desirable was PJ Harvey - but I only like limited amounts of her music, some of it is too screechy for me.

Lana del Rey could likely recite the Gettysburg Address and Id find it magical, but to each their own. I love her facial expressions, in fact aside from her musical style, I think her personality was what initially pulled me in so hard to her unreleased YouTube stuff in 2011-2012.

But I argue that no matter how you may feel about her subjectively, the conceptual material she covers are feminine and goddess archetypes, especially rejected feminine archetypes. ..which is why she both frightens men and feminists concurrently, unless they look at her with less reactionary attitudes.

 

[Thalassa]

Nothing in this post has anything to do with Lana Del Rey. You're more off topic than I ever was.

 

[Blackout]

yeah she's pretty hawt. There's this one video of her playing Ultraviolet live and I like to watch it on repeat repeatedly for some odd reason.

 

[Thalassa]

yeah she's pretty hawt. There's this one video of her playing Ultraviolet live and I like to watch it on repeat repeatedly for some odd reason.

I have this torn feeling where I won't post or pin press pictures of her looking angry, but it's so cute. She presses her lips together. Something about her facial expressions speaks to me, I honestly hope she slows down with the surgery because eventually that will ruin that.

I like this song live

And also her legendary crying performance, I don't know what that says about me.

When I saw her at Hollywood Forever she made eye contact and nodded, she's very personal. I've considered spending huge amounts of money to see her in Orange County this year and getting up at 4 am so I can at least get a hug, maybe even a kiss, that's the front row reward, if she likes you.

 

[Blackout]

I have this torn feeling where I won't post or pin press pictures of her looking angry, but it's so cute. She presses her lips together. Something about her facial expressions speaks to me, I honestly hope she slows down with the surgery because eventually that will ruin that.

I like this song live

And also her legendary crying performance, I don't know what that says about me.

When I saw her at Hollywood Forever she made eye contact and nodded, she's very personal. I've considered spending huge amounts of money to see her in Orange County this year and getting up at 4 am so I can at least get a hug, maybe even a kiss, that's the front row reward, if she likes you.

Would you go lesbian for her?

The only woman right that I think I could go full on lesbian for right now is
[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]

 

[Thalassa]

Would you go lesbian for her?

The only woman right that I think I could go full on lesbian for right now is

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]

I have had a girlfriend before. I am genuinely bisexual, not for show. I don't have unrealistic crushes in celebrities, I don't stalk or chase people, or try to get back stage, for Jared Leto, or Lana. BUT LANA USUALLY KISSES GIRLS. Id be happy with a hug, I'm not the sort that would want to make her uncomfortable. But life goals:









I would absolutely go lesbian for her if she's the person I think she is. That's been an option for me since I was 18-19, though, nothing new, just a matter of meeting the right person.

Absolutely would have to be a lipstick lesbian, though weirdly I also think her younger sister is cute in a tomboy way. She's so gamine, Lana is so glamour.

Love for me is about connecting with the right person. For me that is about 80/20, in favor of men. Likely why I relate to her. I'd have to go full on lesbian for another bisexual woman, identification is important to me.

 

[Blackout]

I wish I was a lesbian : (

Do you think you can usually tell if a person (like a celebrity) is genuine as how they seem to you, or that perhaps maybe Fi is good at knowing when something or somebody is authentic?

I sort of feel a weird connection to Matt Bellamy like that for some reason, I don't know why I feel like we are somehow kindred spirits in some way. I wish I could meet him sort of. They looked at me and noticed me when they played live, and it felt somehow like I don't know, something I needed.

Everyone thinks he is an INFJ and I am not sure if it's true or not, but I have strange feeling we are very similar; I feel like they sort of raised me with their music a bit and I feel sort of indebted to them and like they are almost family to me in a weird way.

 

[Thalassa]

I wish I was a lesbian : (

Do you think you can usually tell if a person (like a celebrity) is genuine as how they seem to you, or that perhaps maybe Fi is good at knowing when something or somebody is authentic?

I sort of feel a weird connection to Matt Bellamy like that for some reason, I don't know why I feel like we are somehow kindred spirits in some way. I wish I could meet him sort of. They looked at me and noticed me when they played live, and it felt somehow like I don't know, something I needed.

Everyone thinks he is an INFJ and I am not sure if it's true or not, but I have strange feeling we are very similar; I feel like they sort of raised me with their music a bit and I feel sort of indebted to them and like they are almost family to me in a weird way.

Yes I think Fi is a great bullshit detector, I think Fe is more deceived by appearances. My dad was a musician, and so is my first boyfriend, I have friends who are actors and stunt artists, and I have done modeling and adult work...performers are just people. I have a friend now who is a rapper, one of my acquaintances is a self made millionaire, one of my clients was the vice president of a major pharmaceutical company. I think being wowed by people is the worst thing. Celebrities are mostly turned off by you seeing them as non-people, I think. I think they're mostly turned off by you seeing them as beyond you, ironically. People kiss their ass all day. I dated a sports manager who was on TV for a while and that gave me a lot of perspective.

To put it simply. There is a reason why actors date other actors, why heirs date heiresses...it's because they want someone to connect with them as human, not worship them as a god. I think stars are more likely to date or marry fans who treat them as human beings.

 

[Blackout]

Yes I think Fi is a great bullshit detector, I think Fe is more deceived by appearances. My dad was a musician, and so is my first boyfriend, I have friends who are actors and stunt artists, and I have done modeling and adult work...performers are just people. I have a friend now who is a rapper, one of my acquaintances is a self made millionaire, one of my clients was the vice president of a major pharmaceutical company. I think being wowed by people is the worst thing. Celebrities are mostly turned off by you seeing them as non-people, I think. I think they're mostly turned off by you seeing them as beyond you, ironically. People kiss their ass all day. I dated a sports manager who was on TV for a while and that gave me a lot of perspective.

To put it simply. There is a reason why actors date other actors, why heirs date heiresses...it's because they want someone to connect with them as human, not worship them as a god. I think stars are more likely to date or marry fans who treat them as human beings.

Erm yes, I know this. I think worshiping anybody due to things like fame or money is kind of ridiculous.

I guess because I am more or less an orphan and obviously I am always looking for that sense of connection in people, I don't know why. I think the reason why I like (or liked) their music so much before was the energy and expressiveness and it become to represent for myself this kind of perfect outlet for me, especially when I was younger. I think that's reason why I see myself in him so much, is he always seemed hyperactive and spazzy/really passionate and emotional to the point of being overly. I imagine he had the same problem, lol.


Just the weirdness and eccentricity too. I can just tell we're the same way! oh well...

 

[Thalassa]

Erm yes, I know this. I think worshiping anybody due to things like fame or money is kind of ridiculous.

I guess because I am more or less an orphan and obviously I am always looking for that sense of connection in people, I don't know why. I think the reason why I like (or liked) their music so much before was the energy and expressiveness and it become to represent for myself this kind of perfect outlet for me, especially when I was younger. I think that's reason why I see myself in him so much, is he always seemed hyperactive and spazzy/really passionate and emotional to the point of being overly. I imagine he had the same problem, lol.


Just the weirdness and eccentricity too. I can just tell we're the same way! oh well...

Never see it as unattainable. That's all I have to say. The power Fi has is to not only detect bullshit, but to treat everyone from homeless man to Prince the same in person. I think that's an Fi power. I remember reading somewhere God watches over the drunks, retarded people and ENFP. ..but that's likely only because an ENFP is extremely likely to treat a famous person or wealthy person just like a homeless person, not for social advantage, but because they genuinely see all people as equal.

I remember Lana del Rey said once if you want something, look at people who got that thing and learn from it. If you really wanted to date a celebrity, don't treat them the way a fan would. Find another way to approach them. I've had a lot of luck with people I don't immediately recognize as exceptional or being able to maintain calm in unfamiliar situations.

I think this is a good thread to address that, because that's essentially what she did. She didn't fan girl anyone. No matter what you feel inside, don't act like everyone else...most people dive at famous people. It's actually the only thing that kept me from seeking a front row seat at a Lana del Rey concert. It's tempting to buy that experience, but it's more satisfying to randomly meet them through other people or run into them. I have never asked a celebrity for a signature in my entire life. I never will.

But like if you have a goal, position yourself for that.

Sometimes the feeling of connection is just fan based. There's nothing wrong with seeking emotional support via music, film or writing. I can't ever meet Henry Miller, or Zelda Fitzgerald because they died before I was born. That's something Lana reassures you is "ok"...is Marilyn your mother, Elvis is your father. ..there is absolutely nothing wrong with relating to that person in your own head. That's why she's so kind to her fans. She's thrilled to be that person for you.