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Is it possible to stabilize gas prices in the United States and in the West?

Coriolis

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Isn't the main problem with renewables low reliability and lack of consistency? It seems nuclear is the only way. Looking at Texas thing from year ago, renewables are highly prone to disruption by extreme weather.
To the extent that renewables are weather/climate dependent, there will be inconsistency. Reliability is more a function of the technology, which continues to improve. These realities make any renewable energy source look inadequate when viewed alone. The right way to implement them is in conjunction with each other: solar, plus wind, plus geothermal or OTEC; plus improved battery technology so energy can be stored when generation exceeds demand, and used when the reverse prevails.
 

Virtual ghost

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Does that work? Or has it worked in any previous examples? I assume it might help in the short term at least, but not long term?

Of course it can work, in less capitalistic parts of the world we do this relatively often and with various goods (people often even demand these kinds of measures). The government places the maximum price above which the specifics goods can't be sold. Therefore the difference between production costs and maximum price will be the profit. While if production cost is above the maximum price then maximum price has to be increased (especially if the crisis is on the long run). I mean this is the measure that primary desires to control speculation and "unfair profits", not kill the profit altogether. This can work even on the long run if the production/final cost is not above maximum allowed price.
 

Maou

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No, invading the middle east isn't going to make gas stable. That is stupid. The entire reason USA is so hung up on that, is because they help dictators, and in return get first dibs. Don't need to kill civilians in the middle east for "more oil". They reason they are so shit to begin with is America! USA is the reason its unstable.

You fix gas prices by getting at home, which we were doing just fine until Biden shut down the pipeline and fracking.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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No, invading the middle east isn't going to make gas stable. That is stupid. The entire reason USA is so hung up on that, is because they help dictators, and in return get first dibs. Don't need to kill civilians in the middle east for "more oil". They reason they are so shit to begin with is America! USA is the reason its unstable.

You fix gas prices by getting at home, which we were doing just fine until Biden shut down the pipeline and fracking.
Fracking can destroy the water supply, which people have to, you know, drink. It's not something people oppose just to make America weak.
 

Maou

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Fracking can destroy the water supply, which people have to, you know, drink. It's not something people oppose just to make America weak.
If you never do anything for fear something bad may happen, you will never accomplish anything.

"Green energy" isn't as environmentally safe as people think it is. It's a capitalist scam, to create a new monopoly on less efficient energy. So all they have to do is rake in subsidies from the government, provide absolute shit service, and pocket the excess money. Just look at what happens in California and their energy debacle. That is your country on "Green energy" if their policies ever escape there.

The real solution to "energy" is energy diversity. Diversity reduces the demand strain on all sources, if all sources are employed. Because having too much demand, and outlawing others will cause severe energy shortages. Also, you would be destroying African Rainforest and causing a humanitarian crisis if the demand increases more than it is now. Lithium-cobalt batteries are made by strip mining the rainforest in the Democratic Republic of Congo which uses slave labor, and people still fail to acknowledge this.


drcmine_0.jpg


Nuclear, is also incredibly safe and effective. A n average reactor can generate 138,000 MWh in a day. For comparison, a solar panel will produce 2 kWh in a day.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Yeah everyone was totally cool parading around Chernobyl yesterday because nuclear is so safe.

"Green energy" isn't as environmentally safe as people think it is. It's a capitalist scam, to create a new monopoly on less efficient energy. So all they have to do is rake in subsidies from the government, provide absolute shit service, and pocket the excess money. Just look at what happens in California and their energy debacle. That is your country on "Green energy" if their policies ever escape there.

OIl and gas got 5 trillion in subsidies in 2020. Why is it ok for them to get subsidies? Do you think people are getting good service in Texas? Also capitalists are definitely getting rich off of oil and gas and they've probably paid for all the propaganda you've consumed about how we should keep relying on it.

You'll probably tell me that they shouldn't be getting subsidies, either. Yeah I'm sure all the politicians oil and gas pays for are going to get right on that. Hopefully we can get Trump re-elected so he can do something about that.

Oh, wait.

https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/recips.php?cycle=2016&ind=E01

1Cruz, Ted (R-TX)Senate$1,758,487
2Trump, Donald (R)$1,302,826
3Clinton, Hillary (D)$1,057,259

Let's look at how much money alternative energy is pouring into the system since it's such a racket.


1Clinton, Hillary (D)$676,718
2McGinty, Katie (D-PA)$122,797
3Grassley, Chuck (R-IA)Senate$96,391


I'm sure the reason politicians push oil and gas more is because they are disgusted by how much of a shady racket green energy is, and want to go with the more morally upstanding energy. It has nothing to do with who gives them more money.
 
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Maou

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Yeah everyone was totally cool parading around Chernobyl yesterday because nuclear is so safe.
Chernobyl happened almost 50 years ago. The technology has advanced since then. Not to mention it was in Russia, which isn't even know for its quality infrastructure or safety protocol. Not doing something ever again because of one fuck up is stupid.
OIl and gas got 5 trillion in subsidies in 2020. Why is it ok for them to get subsidies? Do you think people are getting good service in Texas? Also capitalists are definitely getting rich off of oil and gas and they've probably paid for all the propaganda you've consumed about how we should keep relying on it.
People profiting off of energy is going to happen, regardless of type. It will always happen, that is the nature of buisness. My point is that the cons of "green energy" are much more severe, and unethical than the already established and reliable source of energy that is oil.
You'll probably tell me that they shouldn't be getting subsidies, either. Yeah I'm sure all the politicians oil and gas pays for are going to get right on that. Hopefully we can get Trump re-elected so he can do something about that.

Oh, wait.

Let's look at how much money alternative energy is pouring into the system since it's such a racket.

I'm sure the reason politicians push oil and gas more is because they are disgusted by how much of a shady racket green energy is, and want to go with the more morally upstanding energy. It has nothing to do with who gives them more money.
What does lobby money have to do with your point? Also, Elon Musk was all you had to look at, to see my point. Thats what a monopoly can do, and the competition is neglegent.

Also, Green energy can't even survive without subsidies, but oil can. The only reason oil even get subsidies is so people pay less at the pump. Its called a consumption subsidy. This is so the working class can actually afford to get to work. It is directly important to the economy.

Green energy subsidies on the other hand, is more like bribery to convince people to switch to green. Such as tax refunds on hybrid vehicles etc. Otherwise, shits way too expensive, and gas is still highly convenient and more versitile.
 

Virtual ghost

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Chernobyl happened almost 50 years ago. The technology has advanced since then. Not to mention it was in Russia, which isn't even know for its quality infrastructure or safety protocol. Not doing something ever again because of one fuck up is stupid.

Chernobyl happened in 1986 and that isn't 50 years ago. If you want to rant at least get your facts generally correct.

Also there was a nuclear disaster in Japan much more recently, which is btw. much more advanced country. Therefore this technology has it's large risks and then there is the systematic problem of waste. That isn't trivial at all.


Plus there are problems people like you don't like to think about: There is no way that every country will be allowed to have a nuclear program. That is simply politically unrealistic and most can't even afford it. Since it requires sudden huge investments and plenty of already existing infrastructure. What with green energy isn't necessarily the case. Plus there is the problem that the ore with nuclear elements in it is quite rare and evidently non renewable. Therefore if the world would just switch to this source it should quickly deplete the fuel supply. Especially since you need higher concentrations in order to have economic viability, what even further reduces usable ore supply. Nuclear has to be the part of transition period towards the green energy but nuclear energy as we know it probably doesn't have much of a long term future. Since the ore needed for it is rare and we are running out of it. The only thing really good about nuclear is that we need to get off fossil fuels as fast as possible and nuclear energy can mild out the transition.




Also, Green energy can't even survive without subsidies, but oil can. The only reason oil even get subsidies is so people pay less at the pump. Its called a consumption subsidy. This is so the working class can actually afford to get to work. It is directly important to the economy.

Green energy subsidies on the other hand, is more like bribery to convince people to switch to green. Such as tax refunds on hybrid vehicles etc. Otherwise, shits way too expensive, and gas is still highly convenient and more versitile.


Perhaps but the biosphere can't really live if the fossil fuels aren't replaced. That is simply basic chemistry even if complications are inconvenient. The very negative changes in weather patterns will happen, with the melt of glaciers you will have collapse of water supply and agriculture, with acidification of oceans due to the increased CO2 you will collapse of the food supply for billions. Also you will eventually lose tens of trillions in infrastructure regarding the rising sea levels. Fossil fuels simply have to go, there is no workable alternative to that.

Plus fossil fuels are generally under the control of dictatorships. Therefore with fossil fuels you are basically directly financing dictatorships that will then have the resources to undermine the democracy. If anything this will simply require visible increase in military spending as a counter.


So globally the problem is much more complex than people think and the endgame can only be global in the end. Everything else is just a chat about temporary local issues.
 
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Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Chernobyl happened in 1986 and that isn't 50 years ago. If you want to rant at least get your facts generally correct.

Also there was a nuclear disaster in Japan much more recently, which is btw. much more advanced country. Therefore this technology has it's large risks and then there is the systematic problem of waste. That isn't trivial at all.
I'm not 100% anti-nuclear but calling it it perfectly safe seems a stretch.

Chernobyl happened almost 50 years ago. The technology has advanced since then. Not to mention it was in Russia, which isn't even know for its quality infrastructure or safety protocol. Not doing something ever again because of one fuck up is stupid.

People profiting off of energy is going to happen, regardless of type. It will always happen, that is the nature of buisness. My point is that the cons of "green energy" are much more severe, and unethical than the already established and reliable source of energy that is oil.
This is definitely not true when politicians are being bribed to keep the country reliant on it, which also makes the country dependent on foreign dictators.
What does lobby money have to do with your point? Also, Elon Musk was all you had to look at, to see my point. Thats what a monopoly can do, and the competition is neglegent.
See above. Do you think that money is just a gift package given for public service and nothing is expected in return?
Also, Green energy can't even survive without subsidies, but oil can. The only reason oil even get subsidies is so people pay less at the pump. Its called a consumption subsidy. This is so the working class can actually afford to get to work. It is directly important to the economy.
So, what we should do is not develop green energy technologically, but keep relying on something that is only affordable because tax dollars are keeping it afloat. As sources of oil dry up, won't the subsidies needed get higher and higher? How is that sensible?

Yes green energy sources have their issues but I don't regard the argument that it's totally fine to keep relying on oil and gas as credible. I'm sure the fact that politicians and pundits parrot this line of thinking has no connection at all to the massive amounts of money they receive from these companies. Nope, nothing at all. It's purely a matter of practicality and pragmatism and not naked self-interest.
 

Maou

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Chernobyl happened in 1986 and that isn't 50 years ago. If you want to rant at least get your facts generally correct.
My bad, I I am bad at math. Also, I said "almost". Cut me some slack, it was 2am.
Also there was a nuclear disaster in Japan much more recently, which is btw. much more advanced country. Therefore this technology has it's large risks and then there is the systematic problem of waste. That isn't trivial at all.
Japan has been nuclear since the 1960s and they only now had a disaster. And it was due to a natural disaster.
Plus there are problems people like you don't like to think about: There is no way that every country will be allowed to have a nuclear program. That is simply politically unrealistic and most can't even afford it. Since it requires sudden huge investments and plenty of already existing infrastructure. What with green energy isn't necessarily the case. Plus there is the problem that the ore with nuclear elements in it is quite rare and evidently non renewable. Therefore if the world would just switch to this source it should quickly deplete the fuel supply. Especially since you need higher concentrations in order to have economic viability, what even further reduces usable ore supply. Nuclear has to be the part of transition period towards the green energy but nuclear energy as we know it probably doesn't have much of a long term future. Since the ore needed for it is rare and we are running out of it. The only thing really good about nuclear is that we need to get off fossil fuels as fast as possible and nuclear energy can mild out the transition.
It is not unrealistic, especially if monitored. I am also not talking about giving North korea fucking nuclear power lol. I am mostly talking about the West. China has the most nuclear power apart, the East does in general. So who are you worried about getting nuclear power again?

If they were so concerned with giving bad countries nuclear power, then why did Obama give Iran "nuclear power"?

Also, my main argument is still diversity of energy. Not switching to one or the other.

Perhaps but the biosphere can't really live if the fossil fuels aren't replaced. That is simply basic chemistry even if complications are inconvenient. The very negative changes in weather patterns will happen, with the melt of glaciers you will have collapse of water supply and agriculture, with acidification of oceans due to the increased CO2 you will collapse of the food supply for billions. Also you will eventually lose tens of trillions in infrastructure regarding the rising sea levels. Fossil fuels simply have to go, there is no workable alternative to that.
I am pretty sure the government has already figured out alternatives, but won't fund it/use because they make money off of fossil fuels and green energy. They also probably want the majority of the population to depopulate.
Plus fossil fuels are generally under the control of dictatorships. Therefore with fossil fuels you are basically directly financing dictatorships that will then have the resources to undermine the democracy. If anything this will simply require visible increase in military spending as a counter.
Wow, if only something like energy independence existed. WE had it when Trump was in office, but Biden gave it back to the dictators. I wonder why?
So globally the problem is much more complex than people think and the endgame can only be global in the end. Everything else is just a chat about temporary local issues.
So globally, the only solution is energy diversity. Because everyone's needs are different, as well as every countries needs and resources.
I'm not 100% anti-nuclear but calling it it perfectly safe seems a stretch.
It is safer and more reliable than a lot of other sources of energy.
This is definitely not true when politicians are being bribed to keep the country reliant on it, which also makes the country dependent on foreign dictators.
See what I said above, energy independence is important. Now you know why I support it.
See above. Do you think that money is just a gift package given for public service and nothing is expected in return?
Oh you mean like public healthcare/free college that you want so badly? Are you sure it wouldn't have the same strings attached?
So, what we should do is not develop green energy technologically, but keep relying on something that is only affordable because tax dollars are keeping it afloat. As sources of oil dry up, won't the subsidies needed get higher and higher? How is that sensible?
No, we should evolve all energy sources, all the time. I said nothing about not funding green alternatives, but you cannot force an inefficient alternative that becomes a money pit, onto the people, when there are better alternatives.
Yes green energy sources have their issues but I don't regard the argument that it's totally fine to keep relying on oil and gas as credible. I'm sure the fact that politicians and pundits parrot this line of thinking has no connection at all to the massive amounts of money they receive from these companies. Nope, nothing at all. It's purely a matter of practicality and pragmatism and not naked self-interest.
I think you misunderstood my argument, again. I want DIVERSITY of energy. Not ONLY GREEN, not ONLY FOSSIL FUELS. I also want you to recognize the unrealistic expectation people have for green energy, and why it cannot currently compete with fossil fuels on a level playing field. The alternatives literally only exist, for someone to profit off of people's good will to the environment.

Then, THEN, you cannot forget the fact that almost all the pollution being dumped into the atmosphere, and the ocean, that is causing climate change to begin with, doesn't even come from Western countries. It comes from China, it comes from India, and it comes from Africa. These are the places you need to address, to even think of conquering climate change. First and foremost. If you, if the West cannot even manage that. We are fucked, even if we had zero carbon footprint and 100% green energy alternatives. We cannot reverse the course of climate change due to the sheer influence these countries have over such massive swaths of land. Half of the world in fact.

Also, when looking up climate information for pollution, make sure you are not falling for the meme like "green house gas", because what really contributes most to climate change, is deforestation, pollution of rivers (plastics), desertification, and fine particulates.

1920px-2020_EPI_Map_World.png





 

DiscoBiscuit

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Unfuck the keystone pipe line.

Fully tap US shale plays, Bakken and Marcellus specifically.

Map-of-major-shale-plays-in-the-United-States-EIA-2011.png


Stop speading our ass cheeks to Iran, the House of Saud and Venezuela to fill the gaps (which they will use to strong arm us geopolitically to the extent possible). All these guys hate US for those not paying attention.

From Fortune: Biden is courting Saudi Arabia and Venezuela as he bans Russian energy imports. Here’s what he might be up to.

From CNN: Biden turns to countries he once sought to avoid to find help shutting off Russia's oil money

Ease the labyrinthine regulations on the construction of new nuclear power plants, and build a fuck ton of them ala France.

Simple as.



Except many of those in power and those authoring media narratives wouldn't know a 1hr car commute if it slapped them in the face. Not to mention the fact many of these folks want gas to go higher as to incentivize the adoption green alternatives that only become economically viable as energy market paradigms are shifted away from the norm. Basically fuck energy prices with rarted policy decisions until we all pay more for everything, but are thus strong armed into acting according to their policy preferences.

artworks-VMxaNLZVRzUTNtoc-njQMQg-t500x500.jpg



Luckily, this economic hostage taking manner of policy implementation will almost certainly be electoral strychnine.
 

spirilis

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Electric cars for those who can't go without cars (big caveat there). If you can drive less, ride this price surge out... I hope it doesn't last.

Long term though, oil is a premium product and the way it's manipulated in times like these is a real scam. Electricity has the advantage that we can produce it many different ways, most of which are substantially cheaper than Oil.

(Huge pro-nuclear here btw, but I acknowledge it's a complicated subject. My personal preference would be to see tens of thousands of reactors small & large deployed in the next 30 years alongside geothermal and wind/solar where it makes sense & the waste can be properly managed - for the wind/solar/geothermal, that is. Nuclear already has management of its waste albeit some are ultra picky and want it buried very deep in the ground. Few seem to be truly "with me" on this.)
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Electric cars for those who can't go without cars (big caveat there). If you can drive less, ride this price surge out... I hope it doesn't last.

Long term though, oil is a premium product and the way it's manipulated in times like these is a real scam. Electricity has the advantage that we can produce it many different ways, most of which are substantially cheaper than Oil.

(Huge pro-nuclear here btw, but I acknowledge it's a complicated subject. My personal preference would be to see tens of thousands of reactors small & large deployed in the next 30 years alongside geothermal and wind/solar where it makes sense & the waste can be properly managed - for the wind/solar/geothermal, that is. Nuclear already has management of its waste albeit some are ultra picky and want it buried very deep in the ground. Few seem to be truly "with me" on this.)
I'm car free. It helps that I live in an urban environment where such a thing is possible. When using ride share when necessary I select the green option.
 

ceecee

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I'm car free. It helps that I live in an urban environment where such a thing is possible. When using ride share when necessary I select the green option.
The US has the largest operating train route length in the world. Unfortunately, freight lines constitute about 80%, passenger the other 20%. Oh, they're also ALL privately owned ( Consolidated Rail Corporation). Makes no more sense than bridges and dams being privately owned. I reckon most are not aware of these things.

I took the train to Chicago a few weeks ago for a work related thing. Why anyone would inflict Chicagoland traffic on themselves when they can take the train, is beyond me.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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The US has the largest operating train route length in the world. Unfortunately, freight lines constitute about 80%, passenger the other 20%. Oh, they're also ALL privately owned ( Consolidated Rail Corporation). Makes no more sense than bridges and dams being privately owned. I reckon most are not aware of these things.

I took the train to Chicago a few weeks ago for a work related thing. Why anyone would inflict Chicagoland traffic on themselves when they can take the train, is beyond me.
Yeah, even if work from home ends and I have to go into the office, I think I would still take public transportation. It might theoretically take less time to drive the car but there is traffic to be concerned about, and plus that's time you can spend reading or on the phone.
 

Blackmail!

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Also, when looking up climate information for pollution, make sure you are not falling for the meme like "green house gas", because what really contributes most to climate change, is deforestation, pollution of rivers (plastics), desertification, and fine particulates.
It's exactly the same thing, the same origin. Are you aware that most plastics are made from petroleum, for instance ?

Since you acknowledged you suck at maths... it seems that you probably missed your chemistry classes as well.
 
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