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How to handle ENFP volatility/unpredictability

Starry

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May 22, 2010
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6,103
I do feel your pain about having people mistake friendliness for interest. It happens to me often. And people have these expectations....ugh.

My favorite occasion of this was when I first stated dating my wife, but we hadn't told anyone yet. We happened to go separately to visit a good friend of both of ours. The friend's roommate was most definitely not appealing to me in any shape or form, but while waiting for future wife to appear, I chatted with this roommate for bit, simple ENFJ friendiness.

Anyway, at class on Monday, some girls I knew said they knew I met someone exciting and new over the weekend. I was a bit confused, because my future wife and I hadn't told anyone. And then I found out it was this roommate telling the world she met this great guy and that I was interested in her! Ugh, I had never given the roommate even a second of consideration, but she was making wedding plans.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know this is a ENFx problem and not just a ENFP problem. I am regularly shocked at how many still are mistaking my friendliness for invitations for more.... ugh..... I had yet another start pursing me this week... ugh


This post means a lot to me SfP - you don't even know. Like, this is never going to be something that is easy to talk about because I get the sense people think you are trying to stroke your own ego...or I've seen it said things like "some problem" or "I'd give anything to have your problem" because they don't understand the reality of it. It doesn't seem like people always believe you when you say "I was just being nice/friendly/attentive to what they were talking about."

This is not flattering...this is something that has changed who I am and put a greater distance between me and others.

Anyway, I know the ENFJs have challenges with this as well if not moreso since you guys also seem to attract the devoted :wink:

It feels really good to have someone stand by what I say...especially here thank you.
 

EG_j

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Oh, I actually don't mean playing games. I mean to remain friends with her if you like, but if she is into a variety of guys, even as friends and/or more, that it can be helpful to your sanity to do the same with girls. I'm talking about genuine connections with other people, not flaunting it as an attempt to make her jealous.
When the connection is uncertain like you describe, it is a way to protect yourself and create enough social interaction that you have other options if this fails, but it allows the possibility of your connection to the ENFP to grow if it's meant to be.
I say this to introverts like myself because it is easy to have too few important people in our lives, so that this imbalance with extroverts is a common problem, especially when dating.
You wouldn't have to do too much socializing that's beyond an introvert, but it could be worthwhile to find a least two others women that you genuinely like as friends and possibly more.
You may even find someone with the same qualities you like in her, but who is a bit more focused and less likely to play games with people.

I think this is some good advice. But I don't even know where to find them. :D
"Finding" her was a fortunate coincidence and I am very introverted. I fucking hate clubs and other "partying occasions" that everyone else seems to like.

(this thread isn't that much about ENFPs in general, it is more about unhealthy/lost in life ENFPs)

She's young, not unhealthy.

I think this girl isn't a lost cause, for instance. I just don't think she is ready to give the OP what they want. Or, is willing to settle down enough to figure it out.
There is a two way street here. If the ENFP can't adapt to learn what the INTP needs, same thing. Why must one adapt to the other at the risk of themselves? It takes a bit of experience to bridge that.
Similarly, a 19/20 year old Fe inferior is in no position (generally) to have enough emotional know how to give a young ENFP enough leeway to let them run free. Even if they do - there is no guarantee
(which is sort of what the INTP needs.)
Young Ne/Fe will run wild with speculation. (Mainly intps here).

The question is: Does a 20 year old Fe inferior have enough emotional know how to pursue anything romantic? :D

I do feel your pain about having people mistake friendliness for interest. It happens to me often. And people have these expectations....ugh.
Anyway, just wanted to let you know this is a ENFx problem and not just a ENFP problem. I am regularly shocked at how many still are mistaking my friendliness for invitations for more.... ugh....

Well, if kisses are no sign any more... Then I'm fucking confused.

---

I really appreciate that you are so considerate and want to warn me of this "young ENFP/INTP dynamics" but I also don't want to be discouraged.
Fe doesn't develop on its one while I sit at home playing video games - which is kind of the alternative for now.
I just have to do it. If I'll fail - I have to deal with it and will deal with it. Actually I've got nothing to lose.
Anyway, I'll keep you up-to-date.
 

SearchingforPeace

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This post means a lot to me SfP - you don't even know. Like, this is never going to be something that is easy to talk about because I get the sense people think you are trying to stroke your own ego...or I've seen it said things like "some problem" or "I'd give anything to have your problem" because they don't understand the reality of it. It doesn't seem like people always believe you when you say "I was just being nice/friendly/attentive to what they were talking about."

This is not flattering...this is something that has changed who I am and put a greater distance between me and others.

Anyway, I know the ENFJs have challenges with this as well if not moreso since you guys also seem to attract the devoted :wink:

It feels really good to have someone stand by what I say...especially here thank you.

Yeah, I wish I only was trying to stoke my own ego... It is a difficult thing to deal with.

I believe it must be far worse as a woman, though. Most women will back off, IME, but I suspect men just keep pursuing and won't take no for an answer readily...

Plus, I will never be afraid someone might assault me, while a woman could have a stalker.

I wish you luck. I would rather be friendly than not, but I keep it superficial to prevent confusion....
 

ChocolateMoose123

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[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]
I do feel your pain about having people mistake friendliness for interest.

But this isn't just friendliness. They have definite romantic connection. There has been a level of physical intimacy.

Maybe it's just me, but that often necessitates a bigger responsibility for both parties to figure out what each of them wants.

If it's too soon to do so, or one isn't ready to know yet - that is perfectly acceptable but you have to be sincere about it and not provide mixed signals. Especially if one party is more interested sooner than the other.

"I don't know what I want right now. I'd like to take things very casually and see where it goes. I cannot promise anything will work out. Is this something you can be comfortable with?"

*Discuss*

ENFP would do well to just spell it out instead of "I'm volatile" and "I exploit people" wtf is that about? That doesn't sound genuine or sincere.

That sounds like a guy saying "I just want you to know, I'm an asshole" (Yes. Guys admit this and it is a huge red flag).

It's not explaining anything. It's not sincere.

It's like: "Prepare yourself. I'm extremely selfish and just know your needs or desires will not be met halfway. In fact, they probably will be exploited for my benefit"

I'm sorry but if any type said these things it would bounce red flags.

-----

I get that you agree with this [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]. While you aren't over/emoting I think you're internalizing the criticism and there is no need to because it isn't about you or ENFP's in general.

It's about how this particular one's words and behavior are being interpreted through a lens of OP.

If we had both here? Things would be much clearer. We could ask her questions.
 

Starry

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[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]

But this isn't just friendliness. They have definite romantic connection. There has been a level of physical intimacy.

Maybe it's just me, but that often necessitates a bigger responsibility for both parties to figure out what each of them wants.

If it's too soon to do so, or one isn't ready to know yet - that is perfectly acceptable but you have to be sincere about it and not provide mixed signals. Especially if one party is more interested sooner than the other.

"I don't know what I want right now. I'd like to take things very casually and see where it goes. I cannot promise anything will work out. Is this something you can be comfortable with?"

*Discuss*

ENFP would do well to just spell it out instead of "I'm volatile" and "I exploit people" wtf is that about? That doesn't sound genuine or sincere.

That sounds like a guy saying "I just want you to know, I'm an asshole" (Yes. Guys admit this and it is a huge red flag).

It's not explaining anything. It's not sincere.

It's like: "Prepare yourself. I'm extremely selfish and just know your needs or desires will not be met halfway. In fact, they probably will be exploited for my benefit"

I'm sorry but if any type said these things it would bounce red flags.

-----

I get that you agree with this [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]. While you aren't over/emoting I think you're internalizing the criticism and there is no need to because it isn't about you or ENFP's in general.

It's about how this particular one's words and behavior are being interpreted through a lens of OP.

If we had both here? Things would be much clearer. We could ask her questions.



Oh...I'm not saying she handled it well at all. I'll try to briefly describe what I *think* happened... (I didn't describe this before because I didn't know if it would provide that 'hope' that you mentioned)...but in no way do I think she handled it well and if she's anything like me will probably struggle with this kind of things along with everything else life puts in front of her.

I think she was legitimately interested in him. She contacted him...they went on a date. At some point she started to sense that he is going to be someone that will push for commitment and intimacy long before she feels known or is ready (I think all NFs have this...people think they know us but in reality they are merely assigning us a character...like a storybook character)...but because she is truly interested went with the "I don't kiss on the first date". Like, I said I think she put together that apple pie date as a 'getting to know you' experience...but when he pushed for intimacy she was like "ah fuck it!"

Like, I think her lashing out was her pain. I mean, I think the OP is really cool. I can see why she would like him and can see the parts of him that would work beautifully with an ENFP. But she at this point doesn't feel like this will work out...she doesn't want to risk hurting him...and doesn't want him to be interested in her anymore...so she paints herself in an incredibly bad light. And she didn't say she exploited people. This actually kinda stood out to me as a reinforcing clue. She said (according to the OP) she has a reputation for exploiting people. <-okay...maybe I don't have what it takes to explain in ENFP why that wording makes a difference but I think it is contrived.

Basically, I do struggle a little with the fact that I very much believe this ENFP would do right by him...like her bad behavior is born of very good intentions imo. She kinda threw herself under a bus...which I've done before and it's painful.

Is it a problem if I'm feeling this though? I don't understand. I don't know how they would be...but if my posts in this thread are causing some sort of problem...I don't have to post...I would be happy to leave...just let me know.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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...But she at this point doesn't feel like this will work out...she doesn't want to risk hurting him...and doesn't want him to be interested in her anymore...so she paints herself in an incredibly bad light.

Yeah. This is immature ENFP. I'm not demonizing her here but making yourself look like a bad catch? All that does is attract "fixers" or you get a naive person who doesn't understand why such a person they would be attracted to, who they think is awesome, could be so down on themselves. "If I could just make him/her see that they are great, things will be fine." (Tsk tsk!)

They try *harder*. Ugh. ENFP's tend to have those "why can't I get rid of this person" complaints. Easy. Tell them to kick rocks. :)

I'm not saying that is ENFP's fault for the other party to pursue, hardly!!

but there is some responsibilty in the choice to put up a disingenuous smokescreen of "I'm not good enough."

Can you not see how not giving the correct and simple response of "I'm just not into you." now becomes convoluted mess that begets more and more deceptiveness?

But ENFP doesn't do this because Ne says, "I don't want to burn this bridge. It *could* happen in 10 or some odd years...so I'll keep doing enough maintenence on this bridge to make sure it doesn't collapse." (Leading someone on inadvertently)

It's why I said aux Fi isn't trusted yet so they don't know what they want and lack of Fe makes them clueless as to give the other party what they should get.

If ENFP's could learn to pull the band-aid off in one fell swoop, instead of one hair at a time? Holy shit. Half their misconceptions would be non-existent.

And she didn't say she exploited people. This actually kinda stood out to me as a reinforcing clue. She said (according to the OP) she has a reputation for exploiting people. <-okay...maybe I don't have what it takes to explain in ENFP why that wording makes a difference but I think it is contrived.

Yeah. This is how she got the reputation! Lol.

My best friend ENFP was just like this. We did became good friends and I got to know her very well and saw she would do this to many people she dated. I saw she was...insecure and hiding.

She never thought she was using them nor being unfair. Yet, all of us friends were like, "It's not cool and she is using these people."

She once asked me, "do you think I'm using so-and-so?"

Me: "do YOU think you're using so-and-so?"

Her: "no"

Me: "okay"

Her: "but do you think I am?"

Me: "yes"

Her: proceeds to tell me this hurts her feelings and she isn't using them.

Me: (oh man.)

---

Btw, years later she had her heart broken by a guy and confessed to me that she didn't realize what she had been doing. That it wasn't right. And now she realized she needed to change her ways.

I was like, so happy. Yes. You get it. :)

She is now with an ISTP (don't laugh) and very happy and I love the girl but damn. She was a nightmare to date and was being totally selfish most of the time.

Basically, I do struggle a little with the fact that I very much believe this ENFP would do right by him...like her bad behavior is born of very good intentions imo.

Good intentions still cause a mess. Pick up your toys! :)

Is it a problem if I'm feeling this though? I don't understand. I don't know how they would be...but if my posts in this thread are causing some sort of problem...I don't have to post...I would be happy to leave...just let me know.

No problem. I love ENFP's. I really do. I sing their praises all the time. Hello. I'm surrounded by them! I love their stubborn nature, enthusiasm, zest for life, humor all that.

But there is a dark side to every type. It's okay to call it what it is.

EDIT: btw, I think your posts in this thread are awesome and represent another way of looking at things. The more info. The better.
 

Starry

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Yeah. This is immature ENFP. I'm not demonizing her here but making yourself look like a bad catch? All that does is attract "fixers" or you get a naive person who doesn't understand why such a person they would be attracted to, who they think is awesome, could be so down on themselves. "If I could just make him/her see that they are great, things will be fine." (Tsk tsk!)

They try *harder*. Ugh. ENFP's tend to have those "why can't I get rid of this person" complaints. Easy. Tell them to kick rocks. :)

I'm not saying that is ENFP's fault for the other party to pursue, hardly!!

but there is some responsibilty in the choice to put up a disingenuous smokescreen of "I'm not good enough."

Can you not see how not giving the correct and simple response of "I'm just not into you." now becomes convoluted mess that begets more and more deceptiveness?

But ENFP doesn't do this because Ne says, "I don't want to burn this bridge. It *could* happen in 10 or some odd years...so I'll keep doing enough maintenence on this bridge to make sure it doesn't collapse." (Leading someone on inadvertently)

It's why I said aux Fi isn't trusted yet so they don't know what they want and lack of Fe makes them clueless as to give the other party what they should get.

If ENFP's could learn to pull the band-aid off in one fell swoop, instead of one hair at a time? Holy shit. Half their misconceptions would be non-existent.



Yeah. This is how she got the reputation! Lol.

My best friend ENFP was just like this. We did became good friends and I got to know her very well and saw she would do this to many people she dated. I saw she was...insecure and hiding.

She never thought she was using them nor being unfair. Yet, all of us friends were like, "It's not cool and she is using these people."

She once asked me, "do you think I'm using so-and-so?"

Me: "do YOU think you're using so-and-so?"

Her: "no"

Me: "okay"

Her: "but do you think I am?"

Me: "yes"

Her: proceeds to tell me this hurts her feelings and she isn't using them.

Me: (oh man.)

---

Btw, years later she had her heart broken by a guy and confessed to me that she didn't realize what she had been doing. That it wasn't right. And now she realized she needed to change her ways.

I was like, so happy. Yes. You get it. :)

She is now with an ISTP (don't laugh) and very happy and I love the girl but damn. She was a nightmare to date and was being totally selfish most of the time.



Good intentions still cause a mess. Pick up your toys! :)



No problem. I love ENFP's. I really do. I sing their praises all the time. Hello. I'm surrounded by them! I love their stubborn nature, enthusiasm, zest for life, humor all that.

But there is a dark side to every type. It's okay to call it what it is.

EDIT: btw, I think your posts in this thread are awesome and represent another way of looking at things. The more info. The better.


Yah, see, I think part of the confusion here is that I think she does like him and for whatever reason whenever I express that to you it doesn't get acknowledged <-not that it makes her behavior any less immature (although I am now developing a complex with regards to my own maturity level seeing I didn't know shit when fresh out of high school and in spite of being significantly older still struggle internally with some of what I believe she's currently dealing with)...but it may make her behavior more understandable...and believe me...I know what it is like to want to be more understandable on a daily basis.

But you know it's cool. Understandable was my aim not "forgivable"...or I'm not here asking for an ENFP pardon. But I'm failing and so I will leave you to your own interpretations but not without pointing out this awesome irony...when attempting to explain why we flip out and give-up...I'm giving-up ha.
 

EG_j

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[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]
But this isn't just friendliness. They have definite romantic connection. There has been a level of physical intimacy.
Maybe it's just me, but that often necessitates a bigger responsibility for both parties to figure out what each of them wants.
If it's too soon to do so, or one isn't ready to know yet - that is perfectly acceptable but you have to be sincere about it and not provide mixed signals. Especially if one party is more interested sooner than the other.
"I don't know what I want right now. I'd like to take things very casually and see where it goes. I cannot promise anything will work out. Is this something you can be comfortable with?"
*Discuss*
ENFP would do well to just spell it out instead of "I'm volatile" and "I exploit people" wtf is that about? That doesn't sound genuine or sincere.
That sounds like a guy saying "I just want you to know, I'm an asshole" (Yes. Guys admit this and it is a huge red flag).
It's not explaining anything. It's not sincere.
It's like: "Prepare yourself. I'm extremely selfish and just know your needs or desires will not be met halfway. In fact, they probably will be exploited for my benefit"
I'm sorry but if any type said these things it would bounce red flags.

You're right. And the more I think about it, the more resentments I start to build.

Oh...I'm not saying she handled it well at all. I'll try to briefly describe what I *think* happened... (I didn't describe this before because I didn't know if it would provide that 'hope' that you mentioned)...
but in no way do I think she handled it well and if she's anything like me will probably struggle with this kind of things along with everything else life puts in front of her.
I think she was legitimately interested in him. She contacted him...they went on a date. At some point she started to sense that he is going to be someone that will push for commitment and intimacy long before she feels known or is ready (I think all NFs have this...people think they know us but in reality they are merely assigning us a character...like a storybook character)...but because she is truly interested went with the "I don't kiss on the first date".
Like, I said I think she put together that apple pie date as a 'getting to know you' experience...but when he pushed for intimacy she was like "ah fuck it!"
Like, I think her lashing out was her pain. I mean, I think the OP is really cool. I can see why she would like him and can see the parts of him that would work beautifully with an ENFP.
But she at this point doesn't feel like this will work out...she doesn't want to risk hurting him...and doesn't want him to be interested in her anymore...so she paints herself in an incredibly bad light.
And she didn't say she exploited people. This actually kinda stood out to me as a reinforcing clue. She said (according to the OP) she has a reputation for exploiting people.
<-okay...maybe I don't have what it takes to explain in ENFP why that wording makes a difference but I think it is contrived.
Basically, I do struggle a little with the fact that I very much believe this ENFP would do right by him...like her bad behavior is born of very good intentions imo. She kinda threw herself under a bus...which I've done before and it's painful.
Is it a problem if I'm feeling this though? I don't understand. I don't know how they would be...but if my posts in this thread are causing some sort of problem...I don't have to post...I would be happy to leave...just let me know.

This may be accurate. But somehow I realize why she got that reputation and I'm already sick of it, which isn't very good after just a few weeks.
I have to talk to her but I don't even know if I see her again. (They have a house-warming party which is probably next weekend but I think this isn't the best circumstance for a talk.)

Yeah. This is immature ENFP. I'm not demonizing her here but making yourself look like a bad catch? All that does is attract "fixers" or you get a naive person who doesn't understand why such a person they would
be attracted to, who they think is awesome, could be so down on themselves. "If I could just make him/her see that they are great, things will be fine." (Tsk tsk!)
They try *harder*. Ugh. ENFP's tend to have those "why can't I get rid of this person" complaints. Easy. Tell them to kick rocks. :)

THIS! Just realized I'm a "fixer". Oh man, I think this won't end well.

I'm not saying that is ENFP's fault for the other party to pursue, hardly!!
but there is some responsibilty in the choice to put up a disingenuous smokescreen of "I'm not good enough."
Can you not see how not giving the correct and simple response of "I'm just not into you." now becomes convoluted mess that begets more and more deceptiveness?
But ENFP doesn't do this because Ne says, "I don't want to burn this bridge. It *could* happen in 10 or some odd years...so I'll keep doing enough maintenence on this bridge to make sure it doesn't collapse."
(Leading someone on inadvertently)
Yeah. This is how she got the reputation! Lol.

And I won't be the guy up her sleeve. The sooner I make this clear to her, the better.
Isn't it better for her as well to hold a mirror up to her behaviour? Or is her Fi then as offended as I think it will be?

No problem. I love ENFP's. I really do. I sing their praises all the time. Hello. I'm surrounded by them! I love their stubborn nature, enthusiasm, zest for life, humor all that.
But there is a dark side to every type. It's okay to call it what it is.
EDIT: btw, I think your posts in this thread are awesome and represent another way of looking at things. The more info. The better.

I really appreciate the posts of both of you! It's awesome how much you try to understand and help me and I think both points of view are very insightful!
 

Amargith

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Interesting.

I guess..it's the emotional depth* that Fi demands that makes people think that ENFPs lead people on - especially tertiary and inferior Fe-users, ime. Or maybe it's just the Ne-scouting that makes people nervous. It's true that Ne doesn't want to burn bridges, not until Fi says so, and if Fi is still being calibrated...that can be a while.

(don't get me wrong, at some point, as an ENFP, you figure out how to game this system and if you have enough baggage and self-esteem issues, you can definitely exploit this at the expense of others, to feed your ego).

I've said that very same thing she said about having that reputation. Because I realised my natural process of being and connecting gave people that impression though I didn't understand why at first. Tbh, I also have no problem with guys saying that they're assholes. My first question is why, and how. My second is, what makes you think that way about yourself. And who told you this? It gives a much more complete picture of the person than just that 'red flag'. If I find that their particular brand of 'assholeness' isn't a trigger for me, then who cares?

Meanwhile, an ENFP at 19 is going to be in the throws of calibrating her Fi, including on the romantic field - and yes, make mistakes. You need several data points for that, in fact, you need many. My first love was a player who cheated on his gfs and was too afraid still to change that part of him - I didn't have the experience determining that from the data points I collected to see that going in. But, he did give me al the time in the world to fall in love with him and do my 'homework' - however flawed it was.

The two next ones pushed their way into my life. I was afraid to do the homework, I'll admit. Yet they're the two who complained about caring more for me than I did for them - because I wasn't able to do the work. I was hesitant in the first place, and they rushed me. And I didn't want to 'lead them on', so I complied to the traditional format of 'dating' and how it's supposed to work, because I lost confidence in my own system. And I still regret doing so, to this day, and hurting those guys in the process.

The last man I dated was my INTJ - who was regularly called an asshole, btw. He gave me time and space, without expectation, while he was doing his own homework still, on this. In fact, when I met him, he was interested in someone else while talking to like 10 other women to get a more rounded perspective on dating. Over time, we became best friends and got to know each other through and through. Meanwhile, I wasn't willing to just settle anymore because I might be leading people on if I put in the time and the work.

If i were to be single today, I'd use that same process. Granted, I'd need way less time to assess compatibility, but you know what? Likely,some of those that I took an interest in might still feel I was 'leading them on'. Because, in those two or three days I'd need, I'd go deep. What some would call an 'emotional one-night stand'. Going naked emotionally and being as intimate as we can get. And yes, it wouldn't guarantee a future together. Guess it's like sleeping together on the first date - doesn't mean you're now in a committed relationship :shrug: (I do give people a heads up of that before we go there, to manage expectations)

That's the thing. After the work, after really getting to know each other, the answer can still be 'no'. Now, if you have someone who's just figuring out that process do this stuff..yeah, it can be messy.

My experience also teaches me not to go for a man who won't do the work himself - who is waiting for me and feeling like I lead him on. Coz that, for me, constitutes a serious lack in judgement - and a red flag. Why are you choosing *not* to do the work??? I'm fine with someone who wants to do it together because they feel a lack of experience, though.

I'm not saying she couldn't be wishy washy and a commitment phone, or for that matter stuck in Ne-scouting coz Fi doesn't know what to do with the data yet - we don't have enough data on her for that (oh, irony :D)

In the end, love is a risk. And it can be painful as hell - just like anything else you try and master. It's a skill you develop, for that matter, to find your ideal mate. And you're bound to stumble and fall along the way. :shrug:

It would be interesting to compare these processes for finding a mate between types, I think :thinking:
It would appear that Fe has a *very* different way of going about that, for instance. The only way to navigate between the two is be aware of both, perhaps?



* I mean depth as in deep sea diving vs marathon swimming and passing through check points along the way (like Fe does). It's not meant to imply that other methods are shallow.
 

EG_j

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Interesting.

I guess..it's the emotional depth* that Fi demands that makes people think that ENFPs lead people on - especially tertiary and inferior Fe-users, ime. Or maybe it's just the Ne-scouting that makes people nervous. It's true that Ne doesn't want to burn bridges, not until Fi says so, and if Fi is still being calibrated...that can be a while.

(don't get me wrong, at some point, as an ENFP, you figure out how to game this system and if you have enough baggage and self-esteem issues, you can definitely exploit this at the expense of others, to feed your ego).

I've said that very same thing she said about having that reputation. Because I realised my natural process of being and connecting gave people that impression though I didn't understand why at first. Tbh, I also have no problem with guys saying that they're assholes. My first question is why, and how. My second is, what makes you think that way about yourself. And who told you this? It gives a much more complete picture of the person than just that 'red flag'. If I find that their particular brand of 'assholeness' isn't a trigger for me, then who cares?

Meanwhile, an ENFP at 19 is going to be in the throws of calibrating her Fi, including on the romantic field - and yes, make mistakes. You need several data points for that, in fact, you need many. My first love was a player who cheated on his gfs and was too afraid still to change that part of him - I didn't have the experience determining that from the data points I collected to see that going in. But, he did give me al the time in the world to fall in love with him and do my 'homework' - however flawed it was.

The two next ones pushed their way into my life. I was afraid to do the homework, I'll admit. Yet they're the two who complained about caring more for me than I did for them - because I wasn't able to do the work. I was hesitant in the first place, and they rushed me. And I didn't want to 'lead them on', so I complied to the traditional format of 'dating' and how it's supposed to work, because I lost confidence in my own system. And I still regret doing so, to this day, and hurting those guys in the process.

The last man I dated was my INTJ - who was regularly called an asshole, btw. He gave me time and space, without expectation, while he was doing his own homework still, on this. In fact, when I met him, he was interested in someone else while talking to like 10 other women to get a more rounded perspective on dating. Over time, we became best friends and got to know each other through and through. Meanwhile, I wasn't willing to just settle anymore because I might be leading people on if I put in the time and the work.

If i were to be single today, I'd use that same process. Granted, I'd need way less time to assess compatibility, but you know what? Likely,some of those that I took an interest in might still feel I was 'leading them on'. Because, in those two or three days I'd need, I'd go deep. What some would call an 'emotional one-night stand'. Going naked emotionally and being as intimate as we can get. And yes, it wouldn't guarantee a future together. Guess it's like sleeping together on the first date - doesn't mean you're now in a committed relationship :shrug: (I do give people a heads up of that before we go there, to manage expectations)

That's the thing. After the work, after really getting to know each other, the answer can still be 'no'. Now, if you have someone who's just figuring out that process do this stuff..yeah, it can be messy.

My experience also teaches me not to go for a man who won't do the work himself - who is waiting for me and feeling like I lead him on. Coz that, for me, constitutes a serious lack in judgement - and a red flag. Why are you choosing *not* to do the work??? I'm fine with someone who wants to do it together because they feel a lack of experience, though.

I'm not saying she couldn't be wishy washy and a commitment phone, or for that matter stuck in Ne-scouting coz Fi doesn't know what to do with the data yet - we don't have enough data on her for that (oh, irony :D)

In the end, love is a risk. And it can be painful as hell - just like anything else you try and master. It's a skill you develop, for that matter, to find your ideal mate. And you're bound to stumble and fall along the way. :shrug:

It would be interesting to compare these processes for finding a mate between types, I think :thinking:
It would appear that Fe has a *very* different way of going about that, for instance. The only way to navigate between the two is be aware of both, perhaps?



* I mean depth as in deep sea diving vs marathon swimming and passing through check points along the way (like Fe does). It's not meant to imply that other methods are shallow.

This is enlightening, thanks. I really don't have any clue how Fi works so it's sometimes hard to understand.

What do you mean exactly when you say "giving time and space"?
Time and space to open up emotionally and physically or time and space in terms of not seeing each other too often?

Right now I have the impression she isn't really interested in seeing me at all... But the last time I had that impression she invited me to bake the next day.
 

Amargith

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This is enlightening, thanks. I really don't have any clue how Fi works so it's sometimes hard to understand.

What do you mean exactly when you say "giving time and space"?
Time and space to open up emotionally and physically or time and space in terms of not seeing each other too often?

Right now I have the impression she isn't really interested in seeing me at all... But the last time I had that impression she invited me to bake the next day.

*smiles*

That's just it. She may not even be aware of your tendency to check this and ask this question.

When I meet new people that I find interesting, I don't...control how often I see them - I make the most of the times that I do see them. That includes my own family, btw. It costs me energy to think of how to make sure I see them again. It just...happens, for me.

She asked *you* to go do something together with her. I personally only do that when I feel a) comfortable enough with the person to know that they'd actually appreciate me requesting a part of their precious time (iow when Im *SURE* they won't just do it out of politeness while wishing they were somewhere else, non-stop because I can *feel* that and suffer through that and end up feeling so guilty). When I meet them somewhere where I bump into them, I *know* they're there to socialise or for the same activity as I am, so I feel less anxiety on checking in with them, basically. Or b) when I am really really really intrigued by who they are. Don't get me wrong, if we do meet up then, and the time together shows that we may not be as compatible, or, if we went too fast and it became too emotionally awkward, I'll pull back emotionally and slow it down, to see where it goes from there, and whether my first inclination during that time together was right.

What my INTJ did for me was..well, show me that he had a blatant disrespect for social convention (Te...) so he was unlikely to agree to anything that he didn't want to do. Furthermore, he sought me out, after the first time of bumping into me (we met online in a chat channel). At first, we hung out at that chat channel, then he systematically sought me out for PMs. I knew he wanted to talk to me as much as I did to him - but he was not interested in me at all as a gf at the time. He was just intrigued by who I was and wanted to see what made me tick - and I in him. And that is *exactly* what Fi wants. It's ideal for personality mapping - no pressure, but great company and amazing discoveries. Awesome debates, idea swapping, bantering all over the place - it was the best.

What you're..talking about is nerve-wrecking for me, and I avoid it all times to be in that spot where I have to wonder whether or not someone wants to see me. When I get that kind of pressure or ambivalence, I just toss it aside, go about my life and see what happens next :shrug:

And either we like each other enough to be drawn to each other each time we see each other and things evolve from there (where we stumble upon something else we love to do - a common ground, and then decide to spend time on that together, or we just optimise each time we see each other and perhaps suggest occasionally going to a movie or something and organically build up the amount of time we spend together) , or we drift apart.

I'm not invested in the outcome - I'm invested in the journey and the journey will tell me if you're for me or not. And I'm ok with waiting for the answer :shrug:
 

EG_j

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*smiles*

That's just it. She may not even be aware of your tendency to check this and ask this question.

When I meet new people that I find interesting, I don't...control how often I see them - I make the most of the times that I do see them. That includes my own family, btw. It costs me energy to think of how to make sure I see them again. It just...happens, for me.

She asked *you* to go do something together with her. I personally only do that when I feel a) comfortable enough with the person to know that they'd actually appreciate me requesting a part of their precious time (iow when Im *SURE* they won't just do it out of politeness while wishing they were somewhere else, non-stop because I can *feel* that and suffer through that and end up feeling so guilty). When I meet them somewhere where I bump into them, I *know* they're there to socialise or for the same activity as I am, so I feel less anxiety on checking in with them, basically. Or b) when I am really really really intrigued by who they are. Don't get me wrong, if we do meet up then, and the time together shows that we may not be as compatible, or, if we went too fast and it became too emotionally awkward, I'll pull back emotionally and slow it down, to see where it goes from there, and whether my first inclination during that time together was right.

What my INTJ did for me was..well, show me that he had a blatant disrespect for social convention (Te...) so he was unlikely to agree to anything that he didn't want to do. Furthermore, he sought me out, after the first time of bumping into me (we met online in a chat channel). At first, we hung out at that chat channel, then he systematically sought me out for PMs. I knew he wanted to talk to me as much as I did to him - but he was not interested in me at all as a gf at the time. He was just intrigued by who I was and wanted to see what made me tick - and I in him. And that is *exactly* what Fi wants. It's ideal for personality mapping - no pressure, but great company and amazing discoveries. Awesome debates, idea swapping, bantering all over the place - it was the best.

And either we like each other enough to be drawn to each other each time we see each other and things evolve from there (where we stumble upon something else we love to do - a common ground, and then decide to spend time on that together, or we just optimise each time we see each other and perhaps suggest occasionally going to a movie or something and organically build up the amount of time we spend together) , or we drift apart.

I'm not invested in the outcome - I'm invested in the journey and the journey will tell me if you're for me or not. And I'm ok with waiting for the answer :shrug:

Well, from her behaviour she doesn't seem to be invested in the journey any more, too.
She's kind of ignoring me and is becoming a little impudent, too - And I don't have to stand for that.
I guess - whatever this was - is over. :dry:

What you're..talking about is nerve-wrecking for me, and I avoid it all times to be in that spot where I have to wonder whether or not someone wants to see me. When I get that kind of pressure or ambivalence, I just toss it aside, go about my life and see what happens next :shrug:

I wish I could do this as well. I don't run into girls I like that often (more like... never), so I really wanted this to work out. Now I'm kinda empty again.

---

The NTJs in here were right. It doesn't work out.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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You're right. And the more I think about it, the more resentments I start to build.

Just realize that people can like you and still not be interested completely. That some people are built to handle romance in completely different ways and timetables are different.

What [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] said was right. I think this girl does like you, but in my opinion, doesn't have enough interest at the moment. Could she build into it? Possibly? Maybe? Who knows?

But!

When you add in your needs (and this is massively important in regards to the advice I've given here because it has been coming from what you told me you are looking for from the get-go)

Well, it's up to you to figure out if it's enough in order to feel good in the situation or keep investing.


I have to talk to her but I don't even know if I see her again. (They have a house-warming party which is probably next weekend but I think this isn't the best circumstance for a talk.

If I were you I wouldn't discuss there either but I would have fun at the party :)



And I won't be the guy up her sleeve. The sooner I make this clear to her, the better.

I think if you did this in action and not words would be best. But that's me.

Isn't it better for her as well to hold a mirror up to her behaviour? Or is her Fi then as offended as I think it will be?

It's tricky. Yes. It most likely will not be recieved well. Even from trusted friends it can rub ENFP skin the wrong way and they have to see it for themselves. You can hold a mirror up but it doesn't mean they have to look.

Do you want to maintain friendship with her? Keep her in your life? I think this girl would make a much better friend to you than anything more.

Which is why I said, modify YOUR actions, rather than try to change her behavior. Remember when I said branch out from just her? I think that is wise. It reduces pressure on her and reduces trouble for you.

I really appreciate the posts of both of you! It's awesome how much you try to understand and help me and I think both points of view are very insightful!

You're welcome.
 

Starry

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This may be accurate. But somehow I realize why she got that reputation and I'm already sick of it, which isn't very good after just a few weeks.
I have to talk to her but I don't even know if I see her again. (They have a house-warming party which is probably next weekend but I think this isn't the best circumstance for a talk.)


This is good then right? You see that she's not for you. So why talk to her again? I mean, of all the individuals that posted in this thread you are the only poster that I trust never lost sight of how young the both of you are...and how little time you've actually known each other. You don't owe her any talk or explanation (nor she you frankly). There's no reason you need to attend her housewarming party...just move on. You are a great guy that has so much to offer the world and will find the right person at the right time down the road.
 

EG_j

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Just realize that people can like you and still not be interested completely. That some people are built to handle romance in completely different ways and timetables are different.

What [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] said was right. I think this girl does like you, but in my opinion, doesn't have enough interest at the moment. Could she build into it? Possibly? Maybe? Who knows?
But!
When you add in your needs (and this is massively important in regards to the advice I've given here because it has been coming from what you told me you are looking for from the get-go)
Well, it's up to you to figure out if it's enough in order to feel good in the situation or keep investing.
(...)
I think if you did this in action and not words would be best. But that's me.
(...)
Which is why I said, modify YOUR actions, rather than try to change her behavior. Remember when I said branch out from just her? I think that is wise. It reduces pressure on her and reduces trouble for you.

You're right.
I won't get in touch with her the next week and see what happens.
On the inside I'll try to develop an emotional distance to this and will let go of all the expectations that are left.

If I were you I wouldn't discuss there either but I would have fun at the party :)

Sounds good. I won't be there for her either, but for my fellow colleagues.

Do you want to maintain friendship with her? Keep her in your life? I think this girl would make a much better friend to you than anything more.

I guess I'll see.
At this point my younger me would have already burned that bridge but I'm glad I'm different now.

This is good then right? You see that she's not for you. So why talk to her again? I mean, of all the individuals that posted in this thread you are the only poster that I trust never lost sight of how young the both of you are...and how little time you've actually known each other. You don't owe her any talk or explanation (nor she you frankly). There's no reason you need to attend her housewarming party...just move on. You are a great guy that has so much to offer the world and will find the right person at the right time down the road.

Yes, it was probably too good to be true.
I'm not sure whether I'll attend the party, but if I'll do it then not to connect with her.
I mean, I won't ignore her since that would be pretty childish... But I won't enforce contact with her.

One thing that could keep me from attending it is the fact that everyone attending knows that there was/is something between us. Her sister (as cool as she is) is a blabbermouth and of course could not wait to let everyone know what she noticed.
And since they are sisters who share pretty much everything, I suspect everyone present knowing what went how and why, but only from HER point of view.
 

Starry

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Yes, it was probably too good to be true.
I'm not sure whether I'll attend the party, but if I'll do it then not to connect with her.
I mean, I won't ignore her since that would be pretty childish... But I won't enforce contact with her.

One thing that could keep me from attending it is the fact that everyone attending knows that there was/is something between us. Her sister (as cool as she is) is a blabbermouth and of course could not wait to let everyone know what she noticed.
And since they are sisters who share pretty much everything, I suspect everyone present knowing what went how and why, but only from HER point of view.


What type is her blabbermouth sister do you know? hmm...

haha I'm not making light of your situation in the least when I say that I still enjoyed this post. Someday, you too may look back at this time in your life and perhaps have the same laugh as I do. Don't ever let a blabbermouth or someone else's gossip stop you from going anywhere you please...head held high. Just not this event.

Anyway, with you making the decision to move forward I don't know what more you will want to ask in this thread. If you have more questions...by all means ask. I just didn't want to miss an opportunity to say that I hope you stay at this forum on a regular basis.
 

Betty Blue

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Actually it was alot more messy than that. However as I said in another thread I was dealing with girls that were messed up generally so my comment in the terms of my own experience doesn't really count. However to me it seems that the OP found himself in similar situation as me, so I decided to comment. (this thread isn't that much about ENFPs in general, it is more about unhealthy/lost in life ENFPs)

Or just young ones who are not ready to commit after two weeks... *shrug*
 

Betty Blue

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I believe that qualifies under "lost in life" ? (even if at that age this is completely normal)


lol idk, i think most people can qualify for 'lost in life' most of their lives. :smile: we are all works in progress
 
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