Gender

[Forever]

My agender friend likes to go by "they." Unfortunately they cannot avoid being visually gendered because people will always see others as being either male or female, despite the fact that if they had any control over it, my friend would like to not be gendered at all. Yes, they're born with one set of genitals or the other, but they don't like being socially defined as either category.

Yes, I am 21lux. And being transgender is a huge part of that identity. It's a huge part of what makes me 21lux. For those who are cis it might not be as important, but for me it is, because of all of the confusion and fighting I have had to do, and continue to have to do, just to feel comfortable with myself in my own body. Part of gender is biological, and part of it is a social construct--nature and nurture both play a part in all of us.

Due to the world and society we live in, people are gendered. People are labelled as "he" and "she." Unfortunately, it is too idealistic to think that this is going to change anytime soon, if ever. I doubt we can ever eliminate gender and see everyone as androgynous. So for all that it's worth, being able to use male pronouns and be seen as a guy is very important to me and it is a part of my core self, part of what makes me the one and only 21lux. I want others to see me this way and refer to me this way, too.

Intersexed people vary regarding gender identity. A lot of children are born with ambiguous genitalia and nowadays parents are usually informed, but 40, 50 years ago? No one was. The doctors would use different standards of measurement to determine whether the genitalia was a "micropenis" or an "offensively large clitoris" (those are the medical terms) and perform surgery (almost ALWAYS without telling the parents and getting consent, up until recently) to make the child's sex more "socially appropriate." And many of these children would grow up feeling wrong or confused, and then one day go to a doctor and find out, "oh my god, I was born like that, that explains so much and I've always felt this way but didn't understand why and now I know!"

Individual meaning is part of it, but my social identity and being seen the way I want to be seen is a part of that too.



Very, very true.

I think the fact you care about being part of a role to fulfill makes you very ISxJ.

 

[Yama]

I think the fact you care about being part of a role to fulfill makes you very ISxJ.

Could be! But wouldn't there also be other trans people who aren't ISxJ? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

 

[Forever]

Could be! But wouldn't there also be other trans people who aren't ISxJ? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Well we're talking about ideals here. You still mentioned you wanted a social identity. Other typed transgenders may not feel like it's to fulfill a social role. For an INxP it could be a kind of persona they want to show to others, not necessarily wanting to be a part of society.

An INFJ transgender may feel different but only change to the sex he/she is comfortable in to have other people be comfortable, if others weren't so scared of the unknown, I don't think the INFJ would've cared.

Like I thought I was a girl for many times, but as I grew older I just identified myself less male gender/masculine than anyone else. I would really respect the individual who could truly value me as my own person without bounds or having a changed physical appearance to make them agree with who I am inside.

But hey, I'm not speaking for anyone else. These are hypotheticals.

 

[Yama]

Well we're talking about ideals here. You still mentioned you wanted a social identity. Other typed transgenders may not feel like it's to fulfill a social role. For an INxP it could be a kind of persona they want to show to others, not necessarily wanting to be a part of society.

An INFJ transgender may feel different but only change to the sex he/she is comfortable in to have other people be comfortable, if others weren't so scared of the unknown, I don't think the INFJ would've cared.

But hey, I'm not speaking for anyone else. These are hypotheticals.

Interesting, maybe there are correlations between expression of gender identity and MBTI type. After all, everyone's experience is different, right?

 

[violet_crown]

I object to this list on the grounds of inefficiency. For instance:

Omnigender: the feeling of having more than one simultaneous or fluctuating gender; simultaneous with multigenderand polygender

Polygender: the feeling of having more than one simultaneous or fluctuating gender; simultaneous with multigenderand omnigender

That said if there's a female equivalent of this:

Proxvir: a masculine gender similar to boy, but on a separate plane and off to itself

That's the one that I want to be. :3

ETA: Found it!

Juxera: a feminine gender similar to girl, but on a separate plane and off to itself

 

[Mole]

Je suis Mole, just call out my name.

On Central we can be any gender we want, just as in heaven there is no male or female, and just as in the noosphere, we are all pure spirits.

I have taken advantage of this by becoming Mole who is neither male nor female, rather a pure spirit.

My barista calls me Mole, as does my GP. And now I introduce myself as Mole and people find they address me naturally as Mole.

Fortunately it is not a physical thing, being Mole, rather it is a spiritual thing. But it is a spiritual thing anyone can take part in, all you have to do is call me Mole.

 

[mintleaf]

I've always felt more androgynous than female, but I still identify as female rather than agender or non-binary. I guess I just don't see what good it would do me to "opt out" of gender (i.e. identify as agender) or the Western gender binary (identify as something else). Creating new categories (or adopting ones from other cultures) doesn't seem like an effective solution to the problem of oppressive gender roles/norms/etc. Makes me think of "using the master's tools to dismantle the master's house."

I would never refer to myself as this, but I like the idea

Nanogender: feeling a small part of one gender with the rest being something else

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

People are afraid of what they don't understand.

Themselves

 

[Lark]

Not to be a spoil sport, but I find master lists like this pointless, and their ever changing and dynamic content only underlines the silliness of gender categories.

Gender is not real beyond being an abstract social construct. This list is potentially infinite. Its actual utility is questionable.

Are all genders valid, or Is it really that no gender is valid?
Are two genders simply not enough, or are two genders actually too many?

I agree with what you're saying, that if you accept it is a social construct, what you say is the logical conclusion.

Once you dispense with the binary, "naturalistic", categories you're ability to categorise at all effectively is highly suspect.

I dont believe it is a social construct, and I think some of the motives for accepting that it is are themselves highly suspect, born of both the highest/greatest intentions on the one hand and a sort of confusion on the other but all the same suspect.

Discussions of this kind, for me, parallel some of others that've been had about sexual orientation, a lot of the time the "we'll accept anything, no matter what, we are an accepting community" can come of as neglect, devil may care and live and let die, that side of libertarianism which is pretty anathema to genuinely caring about anyone or anything.

 

[Lark]

Themselves

Often that's the case.

Though what they if they arent afraid?

I find it curious the extent to which discussions of this, also the others about sexual orientation, are so highly emotionally charged, fear, phobia etc. etc.

The binary good/evil, them/us, its all there and it probably would be more important to dispense with that and have a proper discussion than proceed with the hope/expectation of an echo chamber instead.

 

[wolfnara]

I strongly disagree with gender identification and the social constructs evolving around that.

 

[Mole]

The Noosphere

There is no gendered physics. There is no female physics and there is no male physics, there is only physics.

And there are whole intellectual kingdoms which are not gendered, and little do we know it, but we are disembodied on Central, and we are not physically present or gendered on Central.

In fact Central is part of the noosphere where we are like pure spirits. Of course we continue to hark back to our gender almost compulsively, but eventually the penny will drop and we will realise it is pure spirit to pure spirit, intellect to intellect.

For the noosphere click on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5-8Jyopxtc)

 

[Pionart]

There is no gendered physics. There is no female physics and there is no male physics, there is only physics.

Challenge accepted, Moley.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

This is just a way of defining individuality more so than gender.

So, you have 50 plus sum "definitions" of gender. Eh. I'm not so sure. More like, each person wants their own label. Doesn't change anything as there is nothing new under the sun.

Just because you as a female or male (biologically) have preferences outside the majority or your sex doesn't make you genderless. It doesn't make you more "fluid". You are just flipping the script, not inventing a new one. They are still using stereotypes to define themselves. Which, is bizzarre, IMO.

It doesn't make you any different than the female or male (biologically) that has preferences than lean to majority.

Just be yourself. Most times, no one else is trying to put someone in a gender box but themselves.

 

[violet_crown]

This is just a way of defining individuality more so than gender.

So, you have 50 plus sum "definitions" of gender. Eh. I'm not so sure. More like, each person wants their own label. Doesn't change anything as there is nothing new under the sun.

Just because you as a female or male (biologically) have preferences outside the majority or your sex doesn't make you genderless. It doesn't make you more "fluid". You are just flipping the script, not inventing a new one. They are still using stereotypes to define themselves. Which, is bizzarre, IMO.

It doesn't make you any different than the female or male (biologically) that has preferences than lean to majority.

Just be yourself. Most times, no one else is trying to put someone in a gender box but themselves.

This is really well said. Or at least a very articulate statement of my own views on this subject.

As a T female, I've never fit comfortably with female gender roles. It was more an issue for me when I was younger and had less insight into who I was. I question the value of some of these labels, especially those who get into the kind of subjective ephemera described in the list in the OP. To name something, is to affix it. If we can accept that sexual identity, like all aspects of identity, are both evolving and contextual, wouldn't have one more box to maintain inject a sort of artificial constraint on something that's supposed to be more organic?

Everyone has their own balance of masculine/feminine that makes them who they are, so I don't understand the fuss one way or another. My exception to that being people who are trans to make sure that their rights are as respected as anyone else's.

 

[Yama]

I consider my nonbinary siblings trans since trans really just means "not cis."

 

[Forever]

I consider my nonbinary siblings trans since trans really just means "not cis."

So you're saying a lot more people are trans like WUR, me, chanaynay, all the feelers males and all the thinker females?

 

[Kheledon]

Strict gender identity is one of those Fi values that I do not cherish. I tend to agree with Freud that humans are, quite naturally, polymorphously perverse. I also happen to be a member of the most mentally-flexible and unstable Sociotype, EIE, so I don't expect or particularly value stable gender identities from anyone. As such, Reuben McNew's prediction of how my Fi value system should function in such instances is quite accurate.

Loyalty to a strong qualified ethical value system will never interest an ENFj!

Socionics - the16types.info -

Because I do not cherish gender, I am not attached to any firm judgments regarding it. In my world, people are free to be what they want to be, gender-wise. Live and let live, and all of that. I can also say that, watching the development and growth of two generations younger than my own, gender, as a concept, is explosive (expanding rapidly) and that a dramatic change of social norms on this subject is inevitable. The children are our future, and we had better get used to it.

 

[magpie]

Well sex is purely physical inherently there is no personality meaning or anything to conform to. Just pretty much medical.

If you really feel that you should match the aesthetics of a male then yeah you're a transsexual but does the meaning change? No.

Every human being is special.

Just posting this here. It's not as black and white as you think it is, even physically or medically.

Observation or recognition of an infant's sex may be complicated in the case of intersex infants and children, and in cases of early trauma. In such cases, sex assignment is generally taken to require medical treatment to confirm that assignment, but this is disputed in part due to the human rights implications of such treatment.[5][12]

Intersex is a broadly defined term that usually denotes the presence of atypical sex characteristics: at least some aspect of the genitalia, internal organs, gonadal tissue, or chromosomes is more typical of the other sex. When the external genitalia appear to be in between, they are described as ambiguous.[13]

Cases of trauma include the famous John/Joan case, where sexologist John Money claimed successful reassignment from male to female at age 17 months of a boy whose penis was destroyed during circumcision. However, this claim was later shown to be largely false. The subject, David Reimer, later identified as a man.

In approximately 1 in 2,000 infants, there is enough variation in the appearance of the external genitalia to merit hesitation about appropriate assignment by the physician involved.[14] Typical examples would be an unusually prominent clitoris in an otherwise apparently typical girl, or complete cryptorchidism or mild hypospadias in an otherwise apparently typical boy. In most of these cases, a sex is tentatively assigned and the parents told that tests will be performed to confirm the apparent sex. Typical tests in this situation might include a pelvic ultrasound to determine the presence of a uterus, a testosterone or 17-hydroxyprogesterone level, and/or a karyotype. In some of these cases a pediatric endocrinologist is consulted to confirm the tentative sex assignment. The expected assignment is usually confirmed within hours to a few days in these cases.

In a much smaller proportion of cases, the process of assignment is more complex, and involves both determining what the biological aspects of sex may be and choosing the best sex assignment for the purposes of rearing the child. Approximately 1 in 20,000 infants is born with enough ambiguity that assignment becomes a more drawn-out process of multiple tests and intensive education of the parents about sexual differentiation. In some of these cases, it is clear that the child will face physical difficulties or social stigma as he or she grows up, and deciding upon the sex of assignment involves weighing the advantages and disadvantages of either assignment.

 

[Forever]

Just posting this here. It's not as black and white as you think it is, even physically or medically.

I did mention hermaphroditism though... I know it's not always clean cut.