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FREEDOM !

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:hi: How can you define FREEDOM ? (famous quote, or your own)

Is it more a concept, a value in your daily life, a theory hard to apply in your life, an ideal, an illusion ?

Is your freedom transformed when you live a relationship ?

How close to you do you allow another person to be ?

How do you preserve your freedom ?

Are there other values much more important to you than Freedom, which are they ?
 

Poki

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Freedom means i have a choice to do what i want. With that being said, no one can take my freedom away, only my life.

The best they can do to remove freedom is make choices harder.
 
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Freedom means i have a choice to do what i want. With that being said, no one can take my freedom away, only my life.

The best they can do to remove freedom is make choices harder.

Would it be possible you to give a more precise example of "making choices harder" ?
 

Poki

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Would it be possible you to give a more precise example of "making choices harder" ?

I have the freedom to shoot someone, i have the freedom to steal, i have the freedom to do whatever i want. But laws create consequences to deter it. Those consequences make the decison harder, and at times may cause you to choose the opposite.

But even as a Ti i have the freedom to just ignore Ti and jump. I am not stuck in any action. America is more land of security, not freedom. Security creates freedom, while restricting it.
 
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I have the freedom to shoot someone, i have the freedom to steal, i have the freedom to do whatever i want. But laws create consequences to deter it. Those consequences make the decison harder, and at times may cause you to choose the opposite.

But even as a Ti i have the freedom to just ignore Ti and jump. I am not stuck in any action. America is more land of security, not freedom. Security creates freedom, while restricting it.

Give me back our statue of Liberty then :D About security.... if most people were caring and well-intentioned, it would be different.....but it seems that world needs many boundaries...

So you think we have the freedom to ignore (or jump over) our dominant function ?
 

Poki

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Give me back our statue of Liberty then :D About security.... if most people were caring and well-intentioned, it would be different.....but it seems that world needs many boundaries...

So you think we have the freedom to ignore (or jump over) our dominant function ?
Yes, freedom of choice without worry of corruption. I dont know what happened. I dont know what happened. I think we forgot what freedom is.


Yes, its like a leader who looks allows his aide to override what the they decided. Trust in your other functions or lack of faith in itself if that makes sense. Its good and bad.

Can you really steer your dominant, not really. It can steer itself.
 
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Yes, freedom of choice without worry of corruption. I dont know what happened. I dont know what happened. I think we forgot what freedom is.


Yes, its like a leader who looks allows his aide to override what the they decided. Trust in your other functions or lack of faith in itself if that makes sense. Its good and bad.

Can you really steer your dominant, not really.


Corruption is everywhere. Even in some "caring attitudes". The other night I went to a buddhist conference with some women who only saw me 3 times for 1 hour.

In their brain, unconsciously, because they've seen me 3 hours sat on one sofa and carefully listening to them, I'm "part of the family" now :huh:.

One of them said out loud : "Here we share EVERYTHING." Then I started arguing about secret

gardens and personal view points about intimacy. She was kind off shocked : " Oh! WE DON'T have any secret HERE, we're buddhist and we share everything" :doh:

That sounded to me like a kult.


My dominant function had to be tamed by my dear cares to break free. But It just cannot stop its true colours from shining through...


It can steer itself Like your aura... But you can work on it.
 

Poki

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Corruption is everywhere. Even in some "caring attitudes". The other night I went to a buddhist conference with some women who only saw me 3 times for 1 hour.

In their brain, unconsciously, because they've seen me 3 hours sat on one sofa and carefully listening to them, I'm "part of the family" now :huh:.

One of them said out loud : "Here we share EVERYTHING." Then I started arguing about secret

gardens and personal view points about intimacy. She was kind off shocked : " Oh! WE DON'T have any secret HERE, we're buddhist and we share everything" :doh:

That sounded to me like a kult.


My dominant function had to be tamed by my dear cares to break free. But It just cannot stop its true colours from shining through...


It can steer itself Like your aura... But you can work on it.

I agree, it can steer itself. And it can learn how to trust whats outside which allows it to better steer itself. Outside as in outside its function our as in other people.
 

Also

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How can you define FREEDOM ?
Emptiness.

Is it more a concept, a value in your daily life, a theory hard to apply in your life, an ideal, an illusion ?
It's all of this.

Is your freedom transformed when you live a relationship ?
No.

How close to you do you allow another person to be ?
Not very.

How do you preserve your freedom ?
By reminding myself that I really don't matter.

Are there other values much more important to you than Freedom, which are they ?
Not sure if more. Maybe equal to.
 

Pionart

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[what I am saying here is inspired by Christian teaching]

To me, freedom means love, and that means the absence of restrictive bonds - of obligation.

Whenever we wish to do something, but we don't because we are trying to preserve a tie we have to something - whether that be a person, object or idea - then we are not free. Often we fool ourselves into thinking that we are maintaining this bond out of love, but actually it is caused by fear which is the opposite of love.

One idea that I like, a story if you will:

Jesus Christ says to us that he knows we are not fully prepared to love him. He is pure love, manifest on Earth. He was physical but not bound to the physical.

So, Jesus says to us: here, if you do not wish to strike away your bonds out of fear of causing harm, then bond them to me instead. I am pure love, and I will not allow any harm to come about as a result of this. As you cannot love me as much as I love you, you are bound to me, and if you bond everything else to me, then you will maintain secondary bonds.

Then, eventually as we learn to love the creator more and more fully, all other bonds are lessened, and we become more and more free. And when we are free, then we act out of pure love, not the false love from obligation. It is love expressed in the moment, and that is true.
 

eisce faery

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No one is truly free. If we must eat, sleep, work to live, then we are dependent on the Earth and others on some level for staying alive. The concept of freedom is feeling there is the ability to work toward happiness even if not completely happy at the moment. If your religion makes you happy, then you will feel free to practice it if you're unhindered from doing so. If academics makes you happy, then you can freely pursue it; along with, being able to speak openly without being imprisoned for your ideas... yet, there are limits of course which are set up in place to supposedly keep people in check for the benefit of the greater good of humanity or society, but there is always room for adjustment and differences of opinions in that arena. ON and on it goes. Freedom is an illusion and a beautiful one and one I'd rather sustain if at all possible by way of living in virtual contentment by thinking that we are allowed to grow, thrive and improve while working for a better future.
 

Cloudpatrol

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The idea that freedom is illusory or not tangible was beautifully expressed [MENTION=28476]eisce faery[/MENTION]. From an individual standpoint, I see this. I think as a collective view, it has the potential to be dangerous.

Only because: freedom is a luxury that people in many lands are not afforded. Countless countries were formed with freedom in view (The First Amendment, The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, The Philippine Freedom Constitution...). It formed the bedrock of founding law - because the degree of freedoms allowed - impacts people dramatically.

Freedom is the right and power to not be enslaved to another. To act, speak or think without hindrance or subjection to other's precepts. Freedom is essential for autonomy in government and oneself.

It's why throughout history there have been "Freedom Fighter's".

When I think of freedom: I think about ancestor's making journeys and blood of innocents being shed to ensure that we {today} are able to say and do what we personally believe in. To practice what religion we choose (or don't), to express political views, to decide how to parent. There are still parts of the world where people are killed for their religious choice or where the government mandates the size of families.

My love and appreciation for freedom knows no bounds. I feel privileged to live where freedom is celebrated and embraced.


To answer more specifically your original thought, [MENTION=22064]RedAmazoneFriendZone[/MENTION]: in mature relationships freedom {to me} is allowing the other person to be who they are. Not expecting them to change or follow one's own expectation. Having a trusting and organic bond that allows for individual expression/interests while still manifesting as a team.
 

Pionart

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No one is truly free. If we must eat, sleep, work to live, then we are dependent on the Earth and others on some level for staying alive. The concept of freedom is feeling there is the ability to work toward happiness even if not completely happy at the moment. If your religion makes you happy, then you will feel free to practice it if you're unhindered from doing so. If academics makes you happy, then you can freely pursue it; along with, being able to speak openly without being imprisoned for your ideas... yet, there are limits of course which are set up in place to supposedly keep people in check for the benefit of the greater good of humanity or society, but there is always room for adjustment and differences of opinions in that arena. ON and on it goes. Freedom is an illusion and a beautiful one and one I'd rather sustain if at all possible by way of living in virtual contentment by thinking that we are allowed to grow, thrive and improve while working for a better future.

Actually - and you said it yourself - we are not dependent on food, sleep and work, rather we are dependent on these things to live. And we are alive because we enjoy being alive, and when we enjoy it we also enjoy the things that make it possible, so we need not do these things out of dependency but out of the love for life.

When we lose the fear of death, we gain in return the love of life, for we realise it is not a burden but a blessing we have been given, and we may make of it what we wish, even if our wishes are fought against us by the enemy behind us.

In fact even as a slave we may be free, even with powers crashing down aside us we may set ourselves aside from that which we reject, and give to them the part of us which is not truly ourselves, and live freely in separation from what it is we disdain, and even in pain itself enjoy who we are and WHERE we are, whatever that may be.

I fight for freedom by speaking against the powers which speak to the people to instill in them fear, and I say to them they are not real, so long as you are here you are yourself in sickness and in health, in poverty or wealth, in plain view or in stealth - our lives are stories written by US and we are who we are our SELF and selves, for together but not bound in vain, we share our pleasure and our pain, for life it would not be a fact without our love for life in tact.

So in conclusion, whether it be delusion, I pray that we may find collusion, not to do wrong, but for funsake, life, love and the gift of fusion.
 

Kanra Jest

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People saying stupid shit sure make it hard for freedom to truly exist. Let alone all these threats to security. Technically, absolute freedom is no better than chaos. So we all need some sense of Order to survive and thrive. Society, structure. America for example isn't the "land of the free" in an actual sense but it is more free than other countries. There are always people that make it necessary. Like, living without a government. I don't believe that is possible and it seems incomprehensible as to how it would be. Absolute freedom would ve very dangerous.

Can we have inner freedom? Depends. We are always influenced by everything around us. But if you discount that as an issue, perhaps an inner freedom is being yourself. In which case, we also rarely express this in it's full extent. Do to many societal expectations to fit ways of being.

We grow up, go to school, work our lives away until we are old and retired and die off, passing on, as per usual children to do this same thing. Again, and again. A never ending process which in itself is hardly freedom in the literal sense. We must all fit into the system to keep the gears going. Often, it isn't even a job we like but have to do to survive. This is survival. Surviving isn't free.

I think an absolute freedom would be foolishness. Anarchy in it's truest sense would be severely dysfunctional and crippling. We always need some sort of system.
 

Mole

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Mar 20, 2008
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People saying stupid shit sure make it hard for freedom to truly exist. Let alone all these threats to security. Technically, absolute freedom is no better than chaos. So we all need some sense of Order to survive and thrive. Society, structure. America for example isn't the "land of the free" in an actual sense but it is more free than other countries. There are always people that make it necessary. Like, living without a government. I don't believe that is possible and it seems incomprehensible as to how it would be. Absolute freedom would ve very dangerous.

Can we have inner freedom? Depends. We are always influenced by everything around us. But if you discount that as an issue, perhaps an inner freedom is being yourself. In which case, we also rarely express this in it's full extent. Do to many societal expectations to fit ways of being.

We grow up, go to school, work our lives away until we are old and retired and die off, passing on, as per usual children to do this same thing. Again, and again. A never ending process which in itself is hardly freedom in the literal sense. We must all fit into the system to keep the gears going. Often, it isn't even a job we like but have to do to survive. This is survival. Surviving isn't free.

I think an absolute freedom would be foolishness. Anarchy in it's truest sense would be severely dysfunctional and crippling. We always need some sort of system.

In the West we don't have to worry about absolute freedom because our values are freedom and equality. And the genius of the West is that freedom limits equality and equality limits freedom.

The genius of the West has discovered that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so as a corollary we use the power of freedom and the power of equality to limit one another. Sure, it is counter-intuitive, but it works, and so much of modernity is counter-intuitive.

Yes, we have found that equality without freedom leads to some being more equal than others, and freedom without equality leads to licence. But freedom and equality together are as strong as reinforced concrete, and interestingly they are in a dynamic relationship, constantly changing, dancing around each other.
 

Pionart

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People saying stupid shit sure make it hard for freedom to truly exist.

Krim!!! It's called freedom of speech! :ohmy:

absolute freedom is no better than chaos

Well, then what is wrong with chaos???

If we are free, the we still do what our free will wants to do!! And why would we choose chaos unless it is something we want?

Chaos just means "we cannot predict the future" anyway...
 

Typh0n

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People saying stupid shit sure make it hard for freedom to truly exist. Let alone all these threats to security. Technically, absolute freedom is no better than chaos. So we all need some sense of Order to survive and thrive. Society, structure. America for example isn't the "land of the free" in an actual sense but it is more free than other countries. There are always people that make it necessary. Like, living without a government. I don't believe that is possible and it seems incomprehensible as to how it would be. Absolute freedom would ve very dangerous.

Can we have inner freedom? Depends. We are always influenced by everything around us. But if you discount that as an issue, perhaps an inner freedom is being yourself. In which case, we also rarely express this in it's full extent. Do to many societal expectations to fit ways of being.

We grow up, go to school, work our lives away until we are old and retired and die off, passing on, as per usual children to do this same thing. Again, and again. A never ending process which in itself is hardly freedom in the literal sense. We must all fit into the system to keep the gears going. Often, it isn't even a job we like but have to do to survive. This is survival. Surviving isn't free.

I think an absolute freedom would be foolishness. Anarchy in it's truest sense would be severely dysfunctional and crippling. We always need some sort of system.

The limitations of reality make reality.

Freedom means being able to make choices.

When you make a choice, between two or more possibilities, those things cease to be possiblities and become thing you have chosen becomes reality, the others, cease to be a fantasy. They are not even a fantasy anymore.

Reality, btw, can be beautiful or horrible, depending on our choices.

Now, you talk about how we need a system. I kind of agree, but not any system. As humans, we build systems. In a "state of nature" a-la J.J. Rousseau, we have a limited amount of choices to make. And for our "cave man" ancestors, nature was their greatest enemy. Illness, predators, and their living conditions made life very difficult. So they had less choices to make, in this state. So humans invent civilization, and while this brings alot of improvements, it also brings tyranny, in some cases.

The point I'm trying to make is that while a system and civilization is good, I think, it also allows for some abuses, like tyranny and dictatorship, which I wouldn't consider "civilized", but it comes with the territory of governments and rulership. So I think we need government, we need society, and we need civilization, but if we live under a tyrant, a dictator, it takes away our capacity to make choices in our lives. Thats why I want to support politicians who support our freedoms(if there are any), our freedoms to make choices in our lives, not assholes who want to take them away.

Yeah, yeah, I know,I know...

I think too much. :D
 

Pionart

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Krim!!! It's called freedom of speech! :ohmy:



Well, then what is wrong with chaos???

If we are free, the we still do what our free will wants to do!! And why would we choose chaos unless it is something we want?

Chaos just means "we cannot predict the future" anyway...

This is incorrect.

Chaos means that we can in fact predict the future.

It just takes a long time.

Approximately twice as long as it takes to happen.

cHaOsSsSs

:unsure:

sorry i accidented that one i dind't realise the external world actually existed

still not sure
 
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