Fe and the wall?

[Starry]

I won't say something that isn't the truth. For instance, if I really don't wish I could talk with someone, I won't say that, though I will point out that I have pressing work to do. The strategies I mentioned are used primarily when escape is not an option, as in the example conversation with my host family. I also use them when I do want to talk to the other person but either don't want my interest in a specific topic to be obvious, or don't want to call attention to the fact that I wish to avoid a certain topic. It may sound like work, but isn't really - feels more like a game, though a serious and purposeful one.

All of those phrases from my post I imagined as being entirely truthful. But it would be untruthful for me to say that I would never bend the truth if backed into a social corner. It really angers me though...finding myself in this kind of position. It makes me feel a great deal of resentment due to already despising social dynamics and bullshit.

Two weeks ago this happened and I'm still annoyed. I would be so curious to know how you would have handled this situation if in my same shoes...


My father has always been so paranoid about the sharing of any kind of personal, identifying information...and now I'm totally paranoid of my own accord ('of my own accord' doesn't sound right but I'm leaving it in). Two weeks ago I was out of town and in a cute little old lady's yarn shop and we were having an interesting conversation about the history of the area and her store...how she went into business for herself... And then out of the blue "So where are you from?" And I respond with the "such-and-such area"...which just happened to be where she is/was originally from (she lived in my town for many years). So now she's asking me very specific things...near this lake? close to this street?

I completely froze because I've been programmed since birth not to provide this kind of information. With men and female contemporaries...I've always been able to pull off some clever form of "I never give out personal information about myself"...but I was absolutely convinced that saying to this lady "if I told you I would have to kill you"...would fuck up what we had ha. No, I just knew it would be offensive to her in some unknown to me social way...to say "I don't share private information"...she would hear "you don't seem trustworthy to me"...you know that weird social shit where A doesn't really mean A it actually means B? I hate it! I hate it! I hate it! I felt stuck and like the room was spinning and I was taking too long to answer...and so I pretended I had a normal father for a few seconds and lied about the street and lake.


What would you have done Coriolis? Like...I don't get the sense you guys have the same compulsion to protect the little old lady's *feelings* and so you would have answered truthfully if you were me but I don't know...

 

[Z Buck McFate]

On thinking about this thread, I think there is actually a Fi-wall as well, but it tends to be more blank and defaults to assumptions of snobbery and such. I think the Fe-wall may often have a layer of positivity that hides negativity, but the Fi-wall reveals neither. The Fe-wall mirrors back the other person and provides an expectation about what to say next, and the Fi-wall leaves everyone uncomfortable with its blankness and creates uncertainty about what to say next.

Though, I wouldn't say it has to do with shielding my true being from others, in the way I sense from my coworkers. I feel my wall is fairly obvious to be frank. I think what throws me off about their walls is that they have all the trappings and adornment of someone one would think to be this warm and affectionate person, but ultimately, gives you none of that promise. It's this bizarre dynamic to me where I am lured in but then disappointed or just left confused.

When I read the op, I was thinking I could potentially see a wall like what's described, for me. But I'd say mine actually resembles what labyrinthine describes more than the bolded. It may be because I'm e5, but I don't think anyone would accuse me of coming across as warm and affectionate towards someone I didn't especially want to know better. Except maybe with kids and old people, for whom I have a soft spot (but I actually avoid spending much time around kids because I find it exhausting). If anything, half the time I don't know how to come across as warm and affectionate to people I do want to know better. Even though the other half of the time, I've been told a clear enthusiasm bleeds through when I like people. Point is, it's not intentional, and it isn't there unless I really want to know someone better.

In general though, kinda like hard described in the second paragraph of his post, I do have a kind of mechanical mode that I function in when I have to interact with people but don't particularly want to know them better. If people ask me questions about myself when I'm like this, I might give the short answer and then fire the same questions back at them (if they seem kind, and I don't want them to walk away from the exchange feeling bad about themselves, but also don't want to share anything about myself) or I'll just give the short answer and say something about wanting to get back to what I was doing (if they don't strike me as particularly sensitive/kind in the way that needs that kind of thing). I instinctively try to navigate the situations in which I'm not especially interested in knowing the other person better - but don't want the person to walk away feeling bad about themselves because of it (unless they get oafish, then I stop caring) - by trying to redirect attention away from myself in what perhaps might seem like a smoke-and-mirrors kind of way. But I'd be surprised if I come across as warm or affectionate while doing so. And I can't understand why anyone would, so I can't offer any insight about it.

eta: Actually, now that I think about it, if a person is the sort to walk away feeling bad about themselves from interactions where others don't display that kind of warmth, then I could potentially see someone compulsively displaying warmth to everyone, to avoid making anyone feel bad. I tend to pick up on it when people have such heavy expectations from others though, and I compulsively avoid it because I'm just as sensitive in the opposite direction.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Yeah, Fe+wall can be annoying combination.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I just thought of an internal dynamic that might be relevant to this discussion, although in my internal world I don't think it represents general social norms or necessarily Fe.

I genuinely like more people than I trust. I think this can cause social confusion. While I'm very introverted, I have experienced some interactions where I can express some genuine liking towards someone, but it doesn't mean I trust them at all. When I think over general responses from people, it may be more common to have those two qualities considered equal? Or maybe some Fe-doms like people, but they don't trust them also? If I like, but don't trust someone, I don't think I give the impression of complete friendship because I never go any place special or do anything social with any of these people. It is more about expressing some genuine liking or kindness during a professional exchange.

I did experience the other side of the coin when I made a concerted effort to be more extoverted because I was attempting to build a stable social network for myself in the months before I went through a divorce in an environment where I had no family and no real friends. So, I attempted to build "real" friendships and they felt more real than it turned out. When the chips were down it dawned on me that there was zero actual intimacy or friendship in most of the cases. It was just superficial sugar coating. I remember during that time I stepped back and wondered what on earth was the purpose of these social exchanges that people seem invested in, and I concluded it is just something extroverts do to pass the time more pleasantly in the exact seconds the positive exchanges are happening, but there is no meaning or connection beyond those exact seconds of conversation.

My liking but not trusting isn't of that nature at all. When I am involved socially, I tend to be a bad weather friend instead of a good time charlie. I'll help someone get stabilized, like when an acquaintance is going through a divorce I once let her stay with me for a week because she was afraid of her husband and I couldn't imagine her at a shelter because she is delicate and deliberate in a way that could make that experience traumatic. However, later on when she wanted me to go to a party with strangers and I said 'no', she become angry and distant. Perhaps I was a disappointment in that case. Also during my young years at school, I would befriend a new student if they were standing or sitting all alone until they found their own group of friends.

I find myself the exact inverse of the people who feel warm and close but aren't there when the going gets tough. I have trouble connecting when the going is great. There is a way I just don't "get it" - I don't get what people do when they are at parties and laughing and stuff. I usually don't know what they are talking about and feel very distant from all the small talk and social exchange.

 

[Cellmold]

According to all that you wrote...which I would like to receive academic credit for for having read... would I do better with or without a wall in proper society (if I don't go out and find my lost tribe and all things stay the same)...or do I have a wall that is merely ineffective when considering where I come from and where I am? I want to make sure I understand what you are saying...

*Warning, this post is possibly even longer, take your time*

Definitely deserve that academic credit (my posts seem to become longer and longer, with more overwroughtness as I go on ). I think it's nuanced. But as a simple metaphor some people only have a minor fence and others patrol their walls, happy to let their soldiers out but never welcoming any in (or merchants).

I think superficially the wall is useful, in a lot of developed areas you get the sense everyone in (particularly) the more well-paying positions are on tenterhooks; waiting for the next suing or firing. So the wall can let you see what's coming and adjust your presentation to weather the storm, whereas a light fence will probably get blindsided because it's not a vantage point for looking at that kind of trouble (nor does it really need to be) only a general guideline that can be easily reshaped or moved. However the high wall is not really any good for growth or development and ultimately not good for a very fulfilling life (in my opinion at least).

I don't want to stretch or overblow this metaphor too much though (if I haven't already) because I'm probably making a simple point overly complex. Basically I see it as about your level of openess vs level of closed judgement. But in this case the closed judgement is with regards to surface level tensions of status & appearence. Such people can express a simulated emotion and be very expressive, but it's no guide to what they're actually feeling. Repression is a dangerous thing and, as Dan Harmon put it:

"Downstairs, it is older, darker and much, much freakier. We call this basement the unconscious mind.

The unconscious is exactly what it sounds like: It's the stuff you don't, won't and/or can't think about.

To the extent that we keep the basement door sealed, the entire home becomes unstable. The creatures downstairs get louder and the guy upstairs (your ego) tries to cover the noise with neurotic behavior. For some, eventually, the basement door can come right off its hinges and the slimy, primal denizens of the deep can become Scrabble partners. You might call this a nervous breakdown or psychotic break, it doesn't matter. The point is: Occasional ventures by the ego into the unconscious, through therapy, meditation, confession, sex, violence, or a good story, keep the consciousness in working order."


[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] it might be you still have a wall, but as you asked it could definitely be because your fixation(s) is/are different, or maybe you have small fences in many areas where others would have walls (same-shit-different-words to someone who knows about typology I think ).

I'm talking about a specific kind of structure which is greatly concerned with image by consensus, as opposed to an image by individual considerations. You probably have your own ideas and experiences around how damaging an unthinking consensus can be.

That rep who blew up at you was probably already patrolling her wall. She probably had all kinds of abstractions about your motivations and repressed conflicts from other customers (I know this feeling well especially when you feel you cannot express it freely due to being seen as stressed, weak & unfit for the job; emotional repression as a weapon) and was simply letting her basement door open on you.

Even so, that's shitty and uncalled for, it's a very wrong place and wrong time moment. But that dam bursts occasionally & when it does I think it's better to focus it on the ones who are the main cause of that pain, not every innocent bystander.

I have always suspected I might be missing a wall...or am working with the wrong kind of wall for my specific needs (haha). I don't scare people with my anger or illegal gambling rackets...at least *irl* but I offend people with the truth which doesnt make any sense to me but this is an actual thing.

Some people are very in the moment in a reactive way, so they pay attention to information that relates to this such as (like that rep) "what is this person thinking of me...wait..was that a smirk...THAT BITCH!" but such people are not so good at accurate representations of what is actually going on around them, particularly with regards to their own actions.

It doesn't help that anger and stress make us so stupid. So the truth catches them out because they can't believe it & have spent so much time listening to the echos of their own heads they forget that they exist in relation to a living world, not a closed off snippet of reality that suits them.

 

[Poki]

This is just an observation I've had with three Fe doms in my sphere of acquaintances, two ENFJ and one ESFJ, but when I talk to them, I swear, what I get or feel from them is nothing of themselves, as if there is this wall up that prevents me seeing the real them. I don't believe they are Sp doms or anything as they are all very warm and welcoming, but I definitely feel this supposed barrier that no others I know seem to possess. It sometimes feels like I am talking to a wall, where my voice echoes and reverberates. What I hear back is different and not just a mirrored projection, but it's altered. This bounce-back affect is, what I believe, is the cause of me feeling like there is this wall between me and getting to know who they really are. This is just an observation with some theorizing here, but if anyone can add to this or give their feedback, that'd be awesome. Is Fe like this? Is this a trait of Fe??

Welcome to extraverted functions...run without much input. It happens to all of them actually. Its like a disconnect from the world even though they are extroverted.

 

[Dreamer]

Welcome to extraverted functions...run without much input. It happens to all of them actually. Its like a disconnect from the world even though they are extroverted.

Actually this makes so much sense to me if I look at my experience with Ne, and what I imagine Se is about too. Both are very much in the external world... Was about to continue but I think this next comment is rather Fi-influenced hahaha, but I see both extroverted functions existing externally, but you're still focused on the self and discovering the external, for YOU, so there is that disconnect there. [MENTION=30122]Cat Brainz[/MENTION], help me, my Fi is coming out again, I need a band-aid

 

[Lord Lavender]

Actually this makes so much sense to me if I look at my experience with Ne, and what I imagine Se is about too. Both are very much in the external world... Was about to continue but I think this next comment is rather Fi-influenced hahaha, but I see both extroverted functions existing externally, but you're still focused on the self and discovering the external, for YOU, so there is that disconnect there. @Cat Brainz, help me, my Fi is coming out again, I need a band-aid

Lol . You Fi types always need band aids 24/7 which us Fe people are happy to provide for you. BTW i do think the extroverted perceiving functions could also contribute to this wall since Pe doesn't dig deep but is like OMG OMG shiny thing (I know a stereotype but you get the idea) plus many Pe heavy people are also E7s who as we all know dont like getting deep and heavy to avoid the painful and heavy side of life (Especially the Sp and So 7s as Sx 7 will dig a little deeper I think). Plus Ji which always follows a Pe function is also hard to get to know as its private and internal so I think judges and perceiving types can both form walls with others for different reasons. Hmmm Pe/Ji can put on a fun face while avoiding deeper stuff with Ji while judgers use a Je mask to hide their Pi ideals.

 

[Dreamer]

Lol . You Fi types always need band aids 24/7 which us Fe people are happy to provide for you. BTW i do think the extroverted perceiving functions could also contribute to this wall since Pe doesn't dig deep but is like OMG OMG shiny thing (I know a stereotype but you get the idea) plus many Pe heavy people are also E7s who as we all know dont like getting deep and heavy to avoid the painful and heavy side of life (Especially the Sp and So 7s as Sx 7 will dig a little deeper I think). Plus Ji which always follows a Pe function is also hard to get to know as its private and internal so I think judges and perceiving types can both form walls with others for different reasons. Hmmm Pe/Ji can put on a fun face while avoiding deeper stuff with Ji while judgers use a Je mask to hide their Pi ideals.

I sort of wonder if that's a potential reason why it's even hard for me to label exactly WHAT that wall is that I speak of regarding my coworkers. I have a good friend that is ENFJ, and he has a wall too, but is at least more "open"? Not like he talks about his secrets, but I feel it's a little easier for me to see his soul, than these coworkers of mine. But then again, this is within a professional work environment, and even though our office is completely casual compared to most, it's still a work environment at the end of the day....OH! my original point, before I get too sidetracked haha, but I wonder if one reason my workers are hard to see or connect with, is because their wall is more solid and upfront and is not a dynamic I'm accustomed to. I feel with me, my solidity lies beneath the surface but have this misty, hazy exterior. I feel the Pe/Ji dynamic is that sort of soft/hard interplay whereas Je/Pi may be flipped? But with other Ne doms and Se doms, I find it very easy to see past the fluff and to see who they really are, mostly because I'm looking in a mirror basically.

 

[á´…eparted]

Have you guys ever just said stuff like...whatever is actually happening?

"Oh man I wish I could talk right now but if I don't get these reports in by noon..."

or

"Omg you know I hate talking [about] the weather!!!"

or

"You're going have to forgive me but I'm just in a shit mood and don't feel like talking..."

Or what? I'm not a complete stranger to what you describe but I've done fairly decently over the years in social situations without resorting to mind control haha no but you know. That sounds like a hell of a lot of work when the method I just described produces immediate results with so little thinking. To me the choice is clear but I don't fully understand the benefits of your strategies...

If you pin something on the external world, such as needing to attend a meeting, then people won't question it and leave you be. I definitely do that. The caveot with me is I won't lie. It's too deceptive and it makes things a tangled mess should it come up in the future. I make a point to be as non-passive aggressive as possible though.

The only time I will admit being in a bad mood is someone who I am close with, asks something of me that I won't do well with executing due to being in a bad move. Even then I make it as soft as possible. Ultimately I make things as soft of an impact as possible.

Yes, I studied German in school, and a bit in college. I was pretty good then, but am out of practice now.

The few-word replies to casual greetings are quite direct, but when I want to divert a conversation topically, it is much less so. I will take my time with it, and tie it into things the other person has said, usually asking them appropriate open-ended questions until I have steered us well away from (or toward) what I want. It's not that I want them to think they were doing it, but rather that the conversation naturally evolved that way. The key is to make each question/step plausible. Occasionally they will realize that they aren't in Kansas any more and will say something like, "But gee - I wanted to ask you about [original topic]." The next round then involves my asking them why they are interested, what they hope to learn, why they are asking me, etc. Questions that nibble at the edges but don't really answer. I might decide based on their responses to enter the topic, but if not I now have additional fodder for bowing out, or perhaps referring them to someone else.

Interesting. I tend to take my time as well, but only if it's needed. Yeah, getting the conversation to evolve naturally in the direction I choose is the tactic I'll take as well. That's sort of what I mean when I say manipulative. Though, I think we'll deviate there that I put a lot of emotion/emoting into it if I am not going the cold insta-dismissive route.

At the end of the day though, I don't really have to do this often. The only thing I consistently hide is if I am in a negative emotional mode. Outside of that I am quite candid and will freely self-reveal.

 

[Agent Washington]

Lol . You Fi types always need band aids 24/7 which us Fe people are happy to provide for you. BTW i do think the extroverted perceiving functions could also contribute to this wall since Pe doesn't dig deep but is like OMG OMG shiny thing (I know a stereotype but you get the idea) plus many Pe heavy people are also E7s who as we all know dont like getting deep and heavy to avoid the painful and heavy side of life (Especially the Sp and So 7s as Sx 7 will dig a little deeper I think). Plus Ji which always follows a Pe function is also hard to get to know as its private and internal so I think judges and perceiving types can both form walls with others for different reasons. Hmmm Pe/Ji can put on a fun face while avoiding deeper stuff with Ji while judgers use a Je mask to hide their Pi ideals.

Yeah anything Sx is gonna want to go deep lol. The rose tinted glasses for 7sx is kinda a psychological and philosophical one. Even pain and heavy stuff can appear pretty with a 7 Sx.

 

[Lord Lavender]

Yeah anything Sx is gonna want to go deep lol. The rose tinted glasses for 7sx is kinda a psychological and philosophical one. Even pain and heavy stuff can appear pretty with a 7 Sx.

I do think to an extent a Sx dom of any ennergram will want to go deep to an extent and I guess a Sx 7 woulnt mind a little pain in order to go deep. Hmm maybe another part of this Fe wall could be related to how certain stackings interact with one another. Maybe what this could be is that a Sx heavy perosn is trying to connect with a Sp or So heavy person and hitting a wall as Sp doesnt want to revel itself and So wants to keep a image and remain socially acceptable. Wash do you find Sp and So heavy people to have walls up?

 

[Agent Washington]

I do think to an extent a Sx dom of any ennergram will want to go deep to an extent and I guess a Sx 7 woulnt mind a little pain in order to go deep. Hmm maybe another part of this Fe wall could be related to how certain stackings interact with one another. Maybe what this could be is that a Sx heavy perosn is trying to connect with a Sp or So heavy person and hitting a wall as Sp doesnt want to revel itself and So wants to keep a image and remain socially acceptable. Wash do you find Sp and So heavy people to have walls up?

Yes, sometimes. But with other sx heavy people, it's like... There's some kind of "miss", but also because I suspect there's this
Hedgehog's dilemma - Wikipedia
"neither prickle others nor prickle himself"

I think everyone has walls, but sx walls feel very much all-or-nothing, whereas so walls feel .. .more... 'open', but at the same time, closed off. Not sure about sp.

In vidya games terms it's like Sx "walls" are going to be dodge tanking and low armour. Takes a ton of damage when actually hit... If you can hit it in the first place.
So is more like... High armour. Can take a lot of hits no problem, because they're good at deflecting it.
I'm still figuring out the vibe for sp. Can't think of an adequate metaphor. Sp is more like... Self comes first, everything else comes later.

 

[Starry]

[MENTION=15392]Cellmold[/MENTION]


What total awesomeness did I write to/about you in rep that I said I would recreate here? Oh yah for starters...length. If your post was great in length and that didn't register on my "Pe awareness - please say it in 25 words or less" radar which is actually highly sensitive...then it had to be good. Which is why I was requesting density credits. There's a "recently unearthed ancient papyrus scrolls" quality to your writing which I really love. And I don't want to miss out on the wisdom and subsequently will continue to process what you have said.


I need to tell you that I haven't slept much in the last 3 nights. There have been the most beautiful lightening/electrical storms happening in my area...and I swear they are some of the most breathtaking things I have ever seen and I have seen many breathtaking things in my time. They are amazing to see during the day...but for the true symphony of weather glimpses of god...you need evening tickets. And so my heart and soul are full...but my mind is running a little slower than normal...and I have been leaving even more dots unconnected than I usually do (this is a substantial amount of dots.)

This idea of a wall or front might have more to do with unconscious pick-up on societal habits. In other words if you follow the typology line of thinking and apply a concept of Fe then it's often seen as unpopular to voice an expression of emotion, or rather a negative one that might disrupt the ease of another's mind with your own emotional baggage.

Walls...image...emotional restraint and consideration. Fe...that little darling of the travelling Von Trapp function-singers (<-very little sleep).

In my introduction to the Roman airport...my in between the lines message was to say "I know of a very special place...a wall-free nation if you can believe it... where Fe doesn't worry about disrupting the ease of another's mind."

That rep who blew up at you was probably already patrolling her wall. She probably had all kinds of abstractions about your motivations and repressed conflicts from other customers (I know this feeling well especially when you feel you cannot express it freely due to being seen as stressed, weak & unfit for the job; emotional repression as a weapon) and was simply letting her basement door open on you.

Even so, that's shitty and uncalled for, it's a very wrong place and wrong time moment. But that dam bursts occasionally & when it does I think it's better to focus it on the ones who are the main cause of that pain, not every innocent bystander.

Some people are very in the moment in a reactive way, so they pay attention to information that relates to this such as (like that rep) "what is this person thinking of me...wait..was that a smirk...THAT BITCH!" but such people are not so good at accurate representations of what is actually going on around them, particularly with regards to their own actions.

It doesn't help that anger and stress make us so stupid. So the truth catches them out because they can't believe it & have spent so much time listening to the echos of their own heads they forget that they exist in relation to a living world, not a closed off snippet of reality that suits them.

^^These are perfect (and appreciated because in part you were trying to comfort and support me...what you must have imagined was my distress and embarrassment) I couldn't have asked for better because they illustrate the confusion I have experienced my entire life. What I watch Fe go through as well on a daily basis. Who is in control of the meaning? When and where am I reactive and when/where am I doing precisely what I was raised to do because it is seen as healthy living? Where is Fe...Fe?



Real quick... Italy is...I actually think the most individualistic nation on the planet. And when reunited with his BFFs...France, Spain and Israel...this Fab Foursome have earned their heart-trobbing international reputation of being the most emotionally expressive and confrontational nations in the world. Here's a simple chart...

Emotionally Expressive/Confrontational
Israel, France, Spain, Italy

Emotionally Expressive/Avoids Confrontation
Brazil, India, Mexico, Saudi Arabia

Avoids Emotion/Confrontational
Netherlands, Germany, Denmark

Avoids Emotion/Avoids Confrontation
UK <--Ooo look who's here...Sweden, Korea, Japan.



I do get in trouble a lot in Italy haha...I get confronted and scolded all the time...because my name...my appearance...approx 3/4s of my behavior... I look like I should know what I'm doing. And so when I fuck something up they think I did it on purpose. I don't get the tourist-pass (kinder, gentler yelling). I get busted at full Italian strength.

As strange as it may sound in the UK... the airline rep didn't *snap* because she has unprocessed emotional baggage...hasn't been laid in a while and lives with her hoarded cats in a converted suburban garage she pays way too much rent for... As strange as it may sound she was doing the cultural dance perfectly...it just took me a moment to catch on because of the setting.

Italy is considered an Fi nation. But Fe...maybe because of the mirroring idk...does Fi better.



Japan...the UK...the US... <-Children are taught to suppress their emotional expression starting around age 4 but often earlier. All throughout childhood Italian children are encouraged to express themselves emotionally even if it don't look so purdy. Down With Walls!!!

Italy ranks 6 in international life expectancy. (All of the Fab Four are in the top 10 if not higher). The UK is 20.. The US...lower than that and falling...

 

[Coriolis]

My father has always been so paranoid about the sharing of any kind of personal, identifying information...and now I'm totally paranoid of my own accord ('of my own accord' doesn't sound right but I'm leaving it in). Two weeks ago I was out of town and in a cute little old lady's yarn shop and we were having an interesting conversation about the history of the area and her store...how she went into business for herself... And then out of the blue "So where are you from?" And I respond with the "such-and-such area"...which just happened to be where she is/was originally from (she lived in my town for many years). So now she's asking me very specific things...near this lake? close to this street?

I completely froze because I've been programmed since birth not to provide this kind of information. With men and female contemporaries...I've always been able to pull off some clever form of "I never give out personal information about myself"...but I was absolutely convinced that saying to this lady "if I told you I would have to kill you"...would fuck up what we had ha. No, I just knew it would be offensive to her in some unknown to me social way...to say "I don't share private information"...she would hear "you don't seem trustworthy to me"...you know that weird social shit where A doesn't really mean A it actually means B? I hate it! I hate it! I hate it! I felt stuck and like the room was spinning and I was taking too long to answer...and so I pretended I had a normal father for a few seconds and lied about the street and lake.


What would you have done Coriolis? Like...I don't get the sense you guys have the same compulsion to protect the little old lady's *feelings* and so you would have answered truthfully if you were me but I don't know...

Well, for starters, I avoid getting into such conversations with store proprietors, old or not, to begin with so the situation rarely comes up. If a purposeful conversation ("do you have any alpaca yarn?") somehow leads down that path, I might answer vaguely to deter further questioning. For instance, when asked "So where are you from", I might answer "Oh, I've lived a bunch of places" which is true, depending on how you define "a bunch". If I need to strengthen the diversion, I might follow up with, "one of my favorite places to live was [city/state] because . . . ". Or, given that I have lived in different places, I could choose the place that seems most innocuous in the context: where I live right now, the last place I lived, or where I grew up. Another good tactic is to ask more questions of the other person. I wouldn't say directly "I don't want to tell you that", because that form of answer reveals other information that I usually want to protect more even than where I grew up. That sort of answer can invite other questions or speculations that I prefer not to field.

It is much easier just to avoid the conversation to begin with, then I don't need to get into any of this. I can just pay for my yarn and leave. I don't go to yarn shops too often, but I do go to fabric shops, and the one question I most dislike is, "what are you planning to make with that?"

I find myself the exact inverse of the people who feel warm and close but aren't there when the going gets tough. I have trouble connecting when the going is great. There is a way I just don't "get it" - I don't get what people do when they are at parties and laughing and stuff. I usually don't know what they are talking about and feel very distant from all the small talk and social exchange.

This is true of me as well.

Interesting. I tend to take my time as well, but only if it's needed. Yeah, getting the conversation to evolve naturally in the direction I choose is the tactic I'll take as well. That's sort of what I mean when I say manipulative. Though, I think we'll deviate there that I put a lot of emotion/emoting into it if I am not going the cold insta-dismissive route.

At the end of the day though, I don't really have to do this often. The only thing I consistently hide is if I am in a negative emotional mode. Outside of that I am quite candid and will freely self-reveal.

I don't have to do these things often either, but in my case it's because I usually manage to avoid getting sucked into such conversations. You are right, I don't put much emoting into it. I can try to put some if I don't see a better way, but it can start to make me feel really icky.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

This is true of me as well.

Every now and then I wonder if I'm an INTJ that went bonkers. Just every now and then.

 

[cascadeco]

[MENTION=15392]Cellmold[/MENTION]


What total awesomeness did I write to/about you in rep that I said I would recreate here? Oh yah for starters...length. If your post was great in length and that didn't register on my "Pe awareness - please say it in 25 words or less" radar which is actually highly sensitive...then it had to be good. Which is why I was requesting density credits. There's a "recently unearthed ancient papyrus scrolls" quality to your writing which I really love. And I don't want to miss out on the wisdom and subsequently will continue to process what you have said.


I need to tell you that I haven't slept much in the last 3 nights. There have been the most beautiful lightening/electrical storms happening in my area...and I swear they are some of the most breathtaking things I have ever seen and I have seen many breathtaking things in my time. They are amazing to see during the day...but for the true symphony of weather glimpses of god...you need evening tickets. And so my heart and soul are full...but my mind is running a little slower than normal...and I have been leaving even more dots unconnected than I usually do (this is a substantial amount of dots.)






Walls...image...emotional restraint and consideration. Fe...that little darling of the travelling Von Trapp function-singers (<-very little sleep).

In my introduction to the Roman airport...my in between the lines message was to say "I know of a very special place...a wall-free nation if you can believe it... where Fe doesn't worry about disrupting the ease of another's mind."











^^These are perfect (and appreciated because in part you were trying to comfort and support me...what you must have imagined was my distress and embarrassment) I couldn't have asked for better because they illustrate the confusion I have experienced my entire life. What I watch Fe go through as well on a daily basis. Who is in control of the meaning? When and where am I reactive and when/where am I doing precisely what I was raised to do because it is seen as healthy living? Where is Fe...Fe?



Real quick... Italy is...I actually think the most individualistic nation on the planet. And when reunited with his BFFs...France, Spain and Israel...this Fab Foursome have earned their heart-trobbing international reputation of being the most emotionally expressive and confrontational nations in the world. Here's a simple chart...

Emotionally Expressive/Confrontational
Israel, France, Spain, Italy

Emotionally Expressive/Avoids Confrontation
Brazil, India, Mexico, Saudi Arabia

Avoids Emotion/Confrontational
Netherlands, Germany, Denmark

Avoids Emotion/Avoids Confrontation
UK <--Ooo look who's here...Sweden, Korea, Japan.



I do get in trouble a lot in Italy haha...I get confronted and scolded all the time...because my name...my appearance...approx 3/4s of my behavior... I look like I should know what I'm doing. And so when I fuck something up they think I did it on purpose. I don't get the tourist-pass (kinder, gentler yelling). I get busted at full Italian strength.

As strange as it may sound in the UK... the airline rep didn't *snap* because she has unprocessed emotional baggage...hasn't been laid in a while and lives with her hoarded cats in a converted suburban garage she pays way too much rent for... As strange as it may sound she was doing the cultural dance perfectly...it just took me a moment to catch on because of the setting.

Italy is considered an Fi nation. But Fe...maybe because of the mirroring idk...does Fi better.



Japan...the UK...the US... <-Children are taught to suppress their emotional expression starting around age 4 but often earlier. All throughout childhood Italian children are encouraged to express themselves emotionally even if it don't look so purdy. Down With Walls!!!

Italy ranks 6 in international life expectancy. (All of the Fab Four are in the top 10 if not higher). The UK is 20.. The US...lower than that and falling...

What I find so fascinating about culture is just how... different cultures are. (Statement of the obvious/ pointless statement ) And I love your examples. Because, given the examples.... Fe/Fi in a *behavioral* sense become somewhat meaningless -- ie with Italy, your comment that there, Fe does Fi better. (Since Fe becomes Culture, and if Fi is 'culture', then.. Fe will 'Fi'.) It's interesting. I think on a much smaller scale, maybe, all of the 'special snowflake'/hipster/'geeky is cool' fads of recent decades in the U.S. is a spinoff of that? 'Fi' becoming 'Hip'/ 'Fe'? [Also I was raised in a Non-emoting Non-confrontational setting, so you can imagine how challenging it has been for me to try to divorce myself from that and balance things out a bit more - 100% Swede/Norwegian/German/UK cultural family background]

Anyway. I just wanted to comment on that. Re OP, I get what is meant by the Fe 'wall', but I agree more with labyrinthine's comment that everyone puts up walls of their own flavor. It's hard for me to see things these days as purely Fe/Fi concepts, I think a lot of people can be hybrids in many ways.

 

[Starry]

What I find so fascinating about culture is just how... different cultures are. (Statement of the obvious/ pointless statement ) And I love your examples. Because, given the examples.... Fe/Fi in a *behavioral* sense become somewhat meaningless -- ie with Italy, your comment that there, Fe does Fi better. (Since Fe becomes Culture, and if Fi is 'culture', then.. Fe will 'Fi'.) It's interesting. I think on a much smaller scale, maybe, all of the 'special snowflake'/hipster/'geeky is cool' fads of recent decades in the U.S. is a spinoff of that? 'Fi' becoming 'Hip'/ 'Fe'? [Also I was raised in a Non-emoting Non-confrontational setting, so you can imagine how challenging it has been for me to try to divorce myself from that and balance things out a bit more - 100% Swede/Norwegian/German/UK cultural family background]

Anyway. I just wanted to comment on that. Re OP, I get what is meant by the Fe 'wall', but I agree more with labyrinthine's comment that everyone puts up walls of their own flavor. It's hard for me to see things these days as purely Fe/Fi concepts, I think a lot of people can be hybrids in many ways.

Thanks so much for this cascade. There was a part of me that was thinking "I really shouldn't be posting when I am this exhausted" (from lack of sleep)...because I am one of those people that is difficult to understand...due to type and culture haha...when I'm completely fresh and alert. But you always seem to get my concepts which is not an easy task - is what I'm saying. This is greatly appreciated for a variety of reasons including the way it makes me feel for a few minutes in time...like a normal person.

I can only dream about what polished walled-off Fe doms that co-dependently dance around my personal-emotional needs might be like *sigh* that sounds very peaceful. I want that. I want to live the dream It is so interesting to me to remember back to posting about my sister or grandmother...and having members tell me I don't have them typed correctly. I'd be like..."No...I think I do" only to be told it would be impossible for an Fe dom to do X, Y or Z. I miss the member @Juice if you remember him...an ENFJ that made me feel sane. We still don't understand Fe as a forum...so much so I often see Fe users talking about how confusing Fe is because they believe they are Fi or others have convinced them they are Fi because they are "just so authentic" or "they're so real and don't put on a social show" due to this madness.

So yah anyway...I still keep suspecting that what is being discussed has more to do with a connection to an enneagram image type...and the areas in life (public, workplace) where Fe might be more likely to use image as a tool... than simply Fe in and of itself if that makes sense (I'm no longer exhausted but I'm wondering if I should pretend that I still am).

I'm also so fascinated by this "who controls what is true." I remember an incident where I was being attacked in a thread and defended myself <-and told "You have issues" by a member for doing that. Well, okay...in that instance...the person that said "You have issues" said that because they have significant issues... But in situations where all things are equal...I think we have all seen this kind of thing on the forum. Does an individual that comes from an emotionally expressive/confrontational culture have deeply seeded issues if defending themselves or are they merely defending themselves and have a clean bill of mental health? (This is why I never base my assessments of others on these behaviors).


**I also hope people didn't miss the point I was trying to make about emotional suppression. Every fuckin day I read something here or elsewhere that talks about how we should be. The healthiest person is the individual that never breaks an emotional sweat but is entirely logical and polished all day long. Well...that aint supported by science people...dig deeper.

 

[cascadeco]

Thanks so much for this cascade. There was a part of me that was thinking "I really shouldn't be posting when I am this exhausted" (from lack of sleep)...because I am one of those people that is difficult to understand...due to type and culture haha...when I'm completely fresh and alert. But you always seem to get my concepts which is not an easy task - is what I'm saying. This is greatly appreciated for a variety of reasons including the way it makes me feel for a few minutes in time...like a normal person.

I can only dream about what polished walled-off Fe doms that co-dependently dance around my personal-emotional needs might be like *sigh* that sounds very peaceful. I want that. I want to live the dream It is so interesting to me to remember back to posting about my sister or grandmother...and having members tell me I don't have them typed correctly. I'd be like..."No...I think I do" only to be told it would be impossible for an Fe dom to do X, Y or Z. I miss the member @Juice if you remember him...an ENFJ that made me feel sane. We still don't understand Fe as a forum...so much so I often see Fe users talking about how confusing Fe is because they believe they are Fi or others have convinced them they are Fi because they are "just so authentic" or "they're so real and don't put on a social show" due to this madness.

So yah anyway...I still keep suspecting that what is being discussed has more to do with a connection to an enneagram image type...and the areas in life (public, workplace) where Fe might be more likely to use image as a tool... than simply Fe in and of itself if that makes sense (I'm no longer exhausted but I'm wondering if I should pretend that I still am).

I'm also so fascinated by this "who controls what is true." I remember an incident where I was being attacked in a thread and defended myself <-and told "You have issues" by a member for doing that. Well, okay...in that instance...the person that said "You have issues" said that because they have significant issues... But in situations where all things are equal...I think we have all seen this kind of thing on the forum. Does an individual that comes from an emotionally expressive/confrontational culture have deeply seeded issues if defending themselves or are they merely defending themselves and have a clean bill of mental health? (This is why I never base my assessments of others on these behaviors).


**I also hope people didn't miss the point I was trying to make about emotional suppression. Every fuckin day I read something here or elsewhere that talks about how we should be. The healthiest person is the individual that never breaks an emotional sweat but is entirely logical and polished all day long. Well...that aint supported by science people...dig deeper.

I don't know anymore what I think of functions/mbti; I mean, on one level I totally recognize people can be grouped into trends, there are some people that are X way, other people who are clearly Y way, and so on. I just feel like there are so many gray people out there -- and that's why I feel mbti alone is a pretty weak system - from a practical standpoint. And it unavoidably always becomes behavioral in application/discussions, which is where things break down. There's a lot more going on iow. (As you know). So yeah, I tend to agree I'm not sure the OP is an Fe/Fi thing per se. I think there are other things going on. About the only general thing I can say about Fe is that it's more about keeping the larger picture/group Whole, with a shared purpose, desiring a shared experience and to make that as likely as possible, to interact in ways to try to bring that about. There is a goal/desired result/product in mind with Fe, unless I'm mistaken. So any 'wall' tied to Fe will likely tie into that desired outcome -- keeping things surface if that's what is needed, and so on.

Interesting example/question re whether someone from a certain culture has 'issues' if their culture prescribes them to be that way / they know no other way.
I suppose as far as I'm concerned, everyone's going to end up deciding for themselves what they deem healthy/unhealthy and who they want to engage with or avoid.

Re your '**' point -- uggh. Needless to say, I agree. Also, there's the ironic bit of -- those who believe themselves to be entirely logical and who say such things often have SO much emotion behind their motivations, choices, and words that they aren't even aware of.

 

[Dreamer]

Every now and then I wonder if I'm an INTJ that went bonkers. Just every now and then.

Oh! Can I hop on that train??