Enneagram 5w4 or 9?

[Ene]

E 5w4 or 9?

I’m struggling to determine which I am. I’ve tested multiple times and always come out as a 5 or a 9.

I don’t know nearly as much about enneagrams as I do cognitive functions.

 

[Totenkindly]

Not sure what I want to say at the moment, just that I ended up taking the RHETI yet again for a work training session and again scored 5-4-9.

Having had more years to sit and think about it, getting to know myself better, I do have a lot of 9 traits and often find myself trying to keep the peace / stability and an environment that has reduced conflict. I tended to dislike strong types like 8's in the past but am no longer cowed by them. I think I have started to recognize some solid type 9s in my own past relationships, however, and one of the big things is that even with my 9 traits, I would rather speak bluntly in a situation where it matters, even if the topic is uncomfortable, whereas the 9's I have known typically always feel like they have kid gloves on and seem to sidestep confrontation. So while we mesh really well for most situations, I have found myself frustrated dealing with core 9's since they are always trying to keep the situation defused to the degree where things are not being plainly discussed and resolved -- or just called out and labeled as what they are.

I feel like I'm the one who would rather clearly have everything be understood, whereas the lack of clarification is okay on their end as long as the environment stays pleasant and comfortable. (Off record, they will sometimes very quietly agree with me, but they seem really unsettled by instability / the potential for conflict.) I remember wondering why they just wouldn't call a spade a spade even when it would be fairly easy and not that much of a conflict.

Not sure how accurate this is, just a difference I noted. I do not like conflict much either if I am unsure how productive the other people will be or if it will hopelessly destabilize a situation, but I view it more as "speaking plainly so we can reach understanding" and it is worth it in that regard sometimes.

 

[Ene]

Not sure what I want to say at the moment, just that I ended up taking the RHETI yet again for a work training session and again scored 5-4-9.

Having had more years to sit and think about it, getting to know myself better, I do have a lot of 9 traits and often find myself trying to keep the peace / stability and an environment that has reduced conflict. I tended to dislike strong types like 8's in the past but am no longer cowed by them. I think I have started to recognize some solid type 9s in my own past relationships, however, and one of the big things is that even with my 9 traits, I would rather speak bluntly in a situation where it matters, even if the topic is uncomfortable, whereas the 9's I have known typically always feel like they have kid gloves on and seem to sidestep confrontation. So while we mesh really well for most situations, I have found myself frustrated dealing with core 9's since they are always trying to keep the situation defused to the degree where things are not being plainly discussed and resolved -- or just called out and labeled as what they are.

I feel like I'm the one who would rather clearly have everything be understood, whereas the lack of clarification is okay on their end as long as the environment stays pleasant and comfortable. (Off record, they will sometimes very quietly agree with me, but they seem really unsettled by instability / the potential for conflict.) I remember wondering why they just wouldn't call a spade a spade even when it would be fairly easy and not that much of a conflict.

Not sure how accurate this is, just a difference I noted. I do not like conflict much either if I am unsure how productive the other people will be or if it will hopelessly destabilize a situation, but I view it more as "speaking plainly so we can reach understanding" and it is worth it in that regard sometimes.

Thanks so much for your response. I think that what concerns me is that I wonder if I am a 9 who thinks I am a 5. I have great similarities to both. I want peace and harmony but I also like to be left alone to study, research and create. I think I'm going to spend some time studying enneagrams since I haven't done so much in the past.

 

[Earl Grey]

Thanks so much for your response. I think that what concerns me is that I wonder if I am a 9 who thinks I am a 5. I have great similarities to both. I want peace and harmony but I also like to be left alone to study, research and create. I think I'm going to spend some time studying enneagrams since I haven't done so much in the past.

FWIW, bolded is a common/basic need/want for most people.
"I want peace and harmony but I also like to be left alone to [insert hobby/obligation/etc]" most people would be nuts not to be. Most would want to be able to do what they want and need to do without interference. I've got no 9 and I'd want to be left alone doing my own thing too.

Not to say you aren't a 5 or 9, but that this isn't necessarily the tell. The tell would be how you decide to act on conflict if it does erupt and disturb that peace. Even a type 378 would be calm in an agreeable environment.

I don't know much about type 9, and 5 and 9 are indeed often confused for each other. I don't think I can go further than this with help. But @Totenkindly wrote a great comprehensive post there that shows one of the many examples of how one would deal with conflict. What I could suggest is to take a look at the kind of actions you take, and why- what kind of outcomes you would prefer to see from your efforts. It might help you shine a light on what your motivations might be.

Do you sound your own opinions loudly before listening to others first, or do you tend to overly give the benefit of the doubt? Do you tend to be certain in your conclusions, or doubt them excessively, and why? How do you see yourself positioned in the context of other people- do you tend to assume authority and convince people to listen, or do you feel like you are smaller than the world and are mustering up the courage to break what feels like a delicate silence?

So on and so forth, while remembering that if you do have both 5 and 9 in your tritype there will indeed be a lot of overlap. Some people make the mistake of thinking they could only relate to one or the other and confuse themselves- nah, you can relate to both sides- the issue is finding the one that is stronger and more prevalent if it's the core type you're looking for. When push comes to shove, what will you choose?

Good luck on your search.

 

[Coriolis]

E 5w4 or 9?

I’m struggling to determine which I am. I’ve tested multiple times and always come out as a 5 or a 9.

I don’t know nearly as much about enneagrams as I do cognitive functions.

I am less conversant with enneagram as well, but have been learning more about it over the years. I see more 5 in you than 9, though you may very well have a 9 fix also. Totenkindly explains the difference well, and I think it applies to you. I have the impression that you are someone who wants to keep the peace, but not at the cost of speaking the truth, or shying away from a difficult conversation that needs to be had. That you don't seek or create conflict, but you won't shy away from it if it presents itself and can bring growth or progress. Is this accurate?

Good to see you around, by the way. Hope you are doing well.

 

[Luminous]

I think a helpful way of looking at the avoidance of conflict vs speaking the truth plainly is to ask which feels harder for you, because a 5 or 9 can act in both of those ways. But speaking the truth while creating waves and conflict is going to be more stressful to a 9, while holding back truths to maintain peace is going to feel more stressful to a 5.

I'm 9w1 core, tritype 952, and sometimes there are things that are just true and I feel a strong need to call out bullshit, but even though I want to do it and it feels like a need of some kind, it can cause me tremendous discomfort and internal tension and anxiety to do so when it threatens to create conflict. (And that's supposed to be how 9s can grow - by going toward the healthy necessary conflict even though it is uncomfortable...)

 

[Ene]

FWIW, bolded is a common/basic need/want for most people.
"I want peace and harmony but I also like to be left alone to [insert hobby/obligation/etc]" most people would be nuts not to be. Most would want to be able to do what they want and need to do without interference. I've got no 9 and I'd want to be left alone doing my own thing too.

Not to say you aren't a 5 or 9, but that this isn't necessarily the tell. The tell would be how you decide to act on conflict if it does erupt and disturb that peace. Even a type 378 would be calm in an agreeable environment.

I don't know much about type 9, and 5 and 9 are indeed often confused for each other. I don't think I can go further than this with help. But @Totenkindly wrote a great comprehensive post there that shows one of the many examples of how one would deal with conflict. What I could suggest is to take a look at the kind of actions you take, and why- what kind of outcomes you would prefer to see from your efforts. It might help you shine a light on what your motivations might be.

Do you sound your own opinions loudly before listening to others first, or do you tend to overly give the benefit of the doubt? Do you tend to be certain in your conclusions, or doubt them excessively, and why? How do you see yourself positioned in the context of other people- do you tend to assume authority and convince people to listen, or do you feel like you are smaller than the world and are mustering up the courage to break what feels like a delicate silence?

So on and so forth, while remembering that if you do have both 5 and 9 in your tritype there will indeed be a lot of overlap. Some people make the mistake of thinking they could only relate to one or the other and confuse themselves- nah, you can relate to both sides- the issue is finding the one that is stronger and more prevalent if it's the core type you're looking for. When push comes to shove, what will you choose?

Good luck on your search.

Thanks so much. You're right. It isn't the tell. I hadn't looked into Ennegrams in forever but the other day a therapist friend gave me the official test and I scored as most likely a 5, with a 9 being my second most likely and a 2 my third. I will look into tri-types!

 

[Ene]

I am less conversant with enneagram as well, but have been learning more about it over the years. I see more 5 in you than 9, though you may very well have a 9 fix also. Totenkindly explains the difference well, and I think it applies to you. I have the impression that you are someone who wants to keep the peace, but not at the cost of speaking the truth, or shying away from a difficult conversation that needs to be had. That you don't seek or create conflict, but you won't shy away from it if it presents itself and can bring growth or progress. Is this accurate?

Good to see you around, by the way. Hope you are doing well.

Hi Coriolis! It's nice to see you are still here. Thank you for your clear-minded input. You are accurate.

 

[Ene]

I think a helpful way of looking at the avoidance of conflict vs speaking the truth plainly is to ask which feels harder for you, because a 5 or 9 can act in both of those ways. But speaking the truth while creating waves and conflict is going to be more stressful to a 9, while holding back truths to maintain peace is going to feel more stressful to a 5.

I'm 9w1 core, tritype 952, and sometimes there are things that are just true and I feel a strong need to call out bullshit, but even though I want to do it and it feels like a need of some kind, it can cause me tremendous discomfort and internal tension and anxiety to do so when it threatens to create conflict. (And that's supposed to be how 9s can grow - by going toward the healthy necessary conflict even though it is uncomfortable...)

Thanks so much. In light of your response, I suddenly realize that I normally can be both kind and truthful with MOST people, but it's the more strongly opinionated types, like 8s, that are difficult for me and bring out the more "9-ish" aspects of me. Tokenkindly mentioned that and it just now registered with me. Wow, Thank you all so much. I think I'm beginning to get a clear picture.

 

[LightSun]

Hi Coriolis! It's nice to see you are still here. Thank you for your clear-minded input. You are accurate.

Hello @Coriolis and @Ene. My Enneagram is #9. #9 is called the peacekeeper. I am no peacekeeper. I am rather a peaceweaver and I seek to nurture the gifts of others and bring them to fruition. I help to facilitate the gifts of others with my training.

My spiritual name is Apollo LightSun Peaceweaver. As an ideal Apollo stood for truth and beauty and shared the wisdom of the gods.

In Professor Keirsey’s book ‘Please Understand Me: Character & Temperament Types, 1984 Gnosology Books Inc. He outlined four different temperaments.
1. The Dionysian’s are SP’s and account for 38% of the population.
2. The Epimethean’s are SJ’s representing 38% of the populace.
3. The Promethean’s are NT’s and account for 12% of our population.
4. The Apollonian NF’s account for 12% of the general population.

I know of many distinct personality profiles. There is Cognitive Styles, Eennegrams, numerology and other avenues people take stock in.

Personally I have a list of the best 15 books written obout Myers Briggs. I know @Coriolis (I believe) that you favor the book, ‘Gifts Differing: Understanding Personality Type.

I have this book also in my personal home library. I was introduced into Myers Briggs while pursuing a psychology and human services degree.

“Please Understand Me’ sold over 2,000,000 copies and is a classic in the field. It’s based on 4 decades of research. When I read Professor Keirsey’s book it was like reading an autobiography.

I do happen to be aware that Professor Keirsey is an NT. His writing style though is seemingly very metaphorical and I identify with the books I’ve read by this man.

 

[SensEye]

You're a bit out of date though. There is a Please Understand Me II where he renames his classifications:

1) Guardians - SJ's - 45%
2) Artisans - SP's - 28%
3) Rationals - NT's - 10%
4) Idealists - NF's - 17%

I like these terms better because who the heck knows what an Epimethean is?

The percentages have changed a bit too. Probably due to wider MBTI testing having been done over the years. I doubt people's personalities are changing that much. Percentages vary a bit too depending on the source of the data.

 

[Coriolis]

Personally I have a list of the best 15 books written obout Myers Briggs. I know @Coriolis (I believe) that you favor the book, ‘Gifts Differing: Understanding Personality Type.

I have this book also in my personal home library. I was introduced into Myers Briggs while pursuing a psychology and human services degree.

I don't know if it is the best or most comprehensive treatment, but I do think it is the best place for people to start if they want to gain a fundamental understanding of MBTI. It is written by Briggs and Meyers, after all, and describes their original approach and rationale to working out the system. From there, readers can go on to other authors to expand their understanding.

 

[LightSun]

You're a bit out of date though. There is a Please Understand Me II where he renames his classifications:

1) Guardians - SJ's - 45%
2) Artisans - SP's - 28%
3) Rationals - NT's - 10%
4) Idealists - NF's - 17%

I like these terms better because who the heck knows what an Epimethean is?

The percentages have changed a bit too. Probably due to wider MBTI testing having been done over the years. I doubt people's personalities are changing that much. Percentages vary a bit too depending on the source of the data.

Via SensEye
“You're a bit out of date though. There is a Please Understand Me II where he renames his classifications:

1) Guardians - SJ's - 45%
2) Artisans - SP's - 28%
3) Rationals - NT's - 10%
4) Idealists - NF's - 17%

I like these terms better because who the heck knows what an Epimethean is? The percentages have changed a bit too. Probably due to wider MBTI testing having been done over the years.

I doubt people's personalities are changing that much. Percentages vary a bit too depending on the source of the data.


I have others in Keirsey’s series of books.
“Presidential Temperament,” Ray Choiniere and David Keirsey, Prometheus Nemesis Book Company, 1992. I have in my collection. The book shows from the presidents from Washington to George Bush.

I have an amendment with the book that lists President Clinton as an SP. This I had to myself look up. President Obama has many features of an NF. He ultimately is an ENTJ. He has the secondary characteristics though of an ENFJ.

I will put your update in my notes. Thank you kindly for the updated data statistics.
Using older statistics I. had two sources. In one the INTJ was the single rarest at 1.5% of the population.

Then further divide this number, half for female and half for male. Another source, Professor Keirsey’s older data has all four intuitive’s at only 1% a piece for all four introverted intuitive’s types.” LightSun

P.S. I haven’t gotten too much into it but I find Dr. Helen Fisher’s research fascinating. We all human beings fundamentally are the way we are due to sexual hormone l levels. Don’t ask me why Intuitive’s have higher sexual hormone levels.

In addition the sensory population all have higher neurotransmitter levels than an intuitive. We are indeed a product of Nature and Nurture. I equate the hard drive to be our genetics and sexual/neurotransmitter levels.

Our software is especially relevant during early childhood development. I’ve expanded it to include all of life’s particular lessons we each have to uniquely learn.

This is a rhetorical question. If it’s so hard to change ourselves, then it is statistically improbable and non viable to ever hope to change another. We can only influence them for good or Ill.” LightSun