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Donald Trump's Myers-Briggs Type

Dashy CVII

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Sorry, I had added this to my last post before you read: I meant you could go to ESTPs to both study them and ask them about themselves. I also said it was a little off-topic, but I agree that we have to turn to Extraverts + Sensing Dominants in order to understand Se properly. We can't just turn to someone's definitions, the source is the human.

If QueenBee thinks Trump is an ESTP, I'm open to hearing the reasons. But at the end of the day, it has to coincide with the real Extraverted Sensing, right? Se-Ti-Fe-Ni functions in a way that works out best for everyone who identifies with them. The unfortunate matter is, it has been my duty to find those who actually fit into Se-Ti-Fe-Ni and other types, and they're not necessarily vocal or know their type.

An Se type, as I said, is someone primarily Extraverted + Sensing. Trump isn't this. QueenBee I don't know.
 

Introspector

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Sorry, I had added this to my last post before you read: I meant you could go to ESTPs to both study them and ask them about themselves. I also said it was a little off-topic, but I agree that we have to turn to Extraverts + Sensing Dominants in order to understand Se properly. We can't just turn to someone's definitions, the source is the human.

Considering how much of MBTI and personality theory in pop culture these days are nothing more than biased rubbish, someone who says they are an XXXX could very well not be an XXXX. I'm not questioning QueenBeech's type, from what I've seem it is accurate, but that idea fails in practice due to the amount of mistyping and misinformation in typology.
 

Dashy CVII

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My interpretation of what you read was different from mine. It appears that I agree with you. As a response to Turi, I meant in interpretation:

We have to look at real people and real ESTPs, not definitions in old books. We can understand Se fairly well only because it is the Extraverted orientation of Concrete Perception in humans. People with true E/S > T/F > N, are ESTPs / Se primaries, BUT, we must find enough examples of how these E, S, T, N dichotomies manifest in humans, we can't only go by books because they tend to be vastly incomplete of information on these types, and outdated, ie. Jung's Psychological Types, where instead, there is much more to learn about the psyche of functions. I know from myself, the Ni definition is not that great. Definitions of Te, and Se, and Ni etc. are pigeonholing and uncompleted.

It is only by understanding how far Sensation goes in human examples of the extraverted nature, can we understand true ESTPs and Se. Trump, as far as I have studied (and others seem to agree,) is far far away from SeTi.
 

Turi

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I think QueenBeech hit the nail on the head. More succinctly, we need to trust the Extravert who identifies with Dominant Sensing > T > F > N. That is the Se type, and we need to continue to thoroughly examine them:

Well, one issue here is that most people don't know they are an "Se" type (see: all the Ni "doms" who are fascinated with their inferior function - just question them and watch the Se fireworks) - not to mention, who says someone *is* an Se type?
Themselves? I don't believe a word people say, people are prone to unconscious bias. No thanks.

Needs to be objective. People coming to the same conclusion. I believe that's basically occurred here in this thread, re: Trump and ESTP - so perhaps you've now got an ESTP to study.

This is just your opinion. In reality, the source of the functions are the humans. Se needs to be understood through someone who actually has Extroversion + Dominant Sensing. (Not someone's definition of Se, but the real manifestation of Extraversion + Sensing. We have examples of that, and it's not Trump). Te needs to be understood through someone who actually has Extroversion + Dominant Thinking. We must have clear examples of the psychological orientations of E and I in humans to understand the difference in functional orientations (ie. Ti vs Te.) This is my personal approach, and as I said, Jung is useful to understand some aspects of Te, but his theory only by itself falls apart, mostly useless with weak typological boundaries and implications. It has for years been observed that individuals can be classified much more usefully and effectively using something (a) more Socionics-related, (b) more coinciding with real "Extraverted Thinking where Extraversion + Thinking occurs in the mind, and not just in someone's definition." My advice for you? get with the times.

You roll with what works for you (and only you) and I'll roll with what works for me (and is working for others).

Observational theoretics of how the mind actually manifests itself show so many people don't relate to their primary functions in MBTI. But ime, they do have a clear dominant function, it's just based on what dichotomies they're strongest in. I strongly and primarily identify with Intuition of Internals despite not really caring for various mainstream definitions of Ni. I've written many definitions on Ni myself throughout the years as the general orientation of perception of Ni types. I'm I/N > T=F > S, and observations of anyone including myself will point to what Ni does in people and how it manifests--actually understanding people, not simply prescribing to the original observations in the theory. It falls apart so much, because people like Trump don't actually rely on dominant Se. He's a clear example of the dominant Thinker of the extraverted situation, and fits spot on with the other Delta orientations, Si-Ne, Te-Fi. But I'm fully open to discussing this with you and reaching other conclusions.

You're not actually open to anything - you've proven you're just trying to beat your own subjective understandings into other peoples heads - I'll pass.
 

Dashy CVII

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Just for the record Turi, you said:
- "It's fruitless to talk about the definitions/interpretations of functions"
- "I'm not interested in defending myself any further nor debating anyone on definitions and terminology"
- "It's somewhat annoying how every thread devolves into debating the same thing - how to define the terms."
- "I don't think your opinion really matters when we're talking about functions - Jung is basically "the source" for any functions-related speak."

And I said:
- "I'm fully open to discussing this with you and reaching other conclusions."
- "If QueenBee thinks Trump is an ESTP, I'm open to hearing the reasons."


I've got no beef with you, relax man. You said:
- "A methodology I prefer is more consistent with Se-Ti. He doesn't fit Te (imo) within the model I prefer, which is not the pure Jungian model."
So why don't you show me where you explained your typing of him as SeTi? I'm as interested in it as I am anything else. I also prefer to understand functions as they actually exist and to the extent they exist in humans. Te and Ti ime go a lot deeper than what you had said. You're right that I'm not interested in hearing stereotypical Jungian model talk, because I've been through that. In my experience, that one doesn't work. There's a more realistic model that starts with logical application of the foundational terms, what it means to Sense, to Extravert, to Intuit, to Introvert, etc. Within studying humans is where we find the information, not quoting and old authority like Jung, who might not have known the extents of Se, Ne, Ni for his time, who I believe, simplified the terms greatly.
 

Turi

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Just for the record Turi, you said:
- "It's fruitless to talk about the definitions/interpretations of functions"
- "I'm not interested in defending myself any further nor debating anyone on definitions and terminology"
- "It's somewhat annoying how every thread devolves into debating the same thing - how to define the terms."
- "I don't think your opinion really matters when we're talking about functions - Jung is basically "the source" for any functions-related speak."

And I said:
- "I'm fully open to discussing this with you and reaching other conclusions."
- "If QueenBee thinks Trump is an ESTP, I'm open to hearing the reasons."

Yeah, but we all know this isn't how it would go down - out of 0-10, how likely are you to accept whatever QueenBee says as proof Trump is an ESTP, and not attempt to rebut it with your own subjective understandings?
Regardless of what she says. That's how it would go down, because your understandings are your understandings and your understandings alone.

They are exclusive to you. They don't match what anyone else is using.

I've got no beef with you, relax man. You said:
- "A methodology I prefer is more consistent with Se-Ti. He doesn't fit Te (imo) within the model I prefer, which is not the pure Jungian model."
So why don't you show me where you explained your typing of him as SeTi? I'm as interested in it as I am anything else. I also prefer to understand functions as they actually exist and to the extent they exist in humans. Te and Ti ime go a lot deeper than what you had said. You're right that I'm not interested in hearing stereotypical Jungian model talk, because I've been through that. In my experience, that one doesn't work. There's a more realistic model that starts with logical application of the foundational terms, what it means to Sense, to Extravert, to Intuit, to Introvert, etc. Within studying humans is where we find the information, not quoting and old authority like Jung, who might not have known the extents of Se, Ne, Ni for his time, who I believe, simplified the terms greatly.

I already outlined why Trump doesn't fit Te - his Thinking is not extraverted. Ergo, not Te.
He doesn't match Te within my preferred model (that is not my own subjective model, fwiw) - and he doesn't match Jungs Te.
If he matches how you define Te, great, he can be a Te type to you.
 

Mal12345

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Why isn't there a poll here?
 

Dashy CVII

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Yeah, but we all know this isn't how it would go down - out of 0-10, how likely are you to accept whatever QueenBee says as proof Trump is an ESTP, and not attempt to rebut it with your own subjective understandings?
Regardless of what she says. That's how it would go down, because your understandings are your understandings and your understandings alone.

Hmm, you seem to post like you know who I am, but are mistaken. Since there are potentially thousands of ways understanding could go down, my likeliness of accepting one person's opinion of the typological model would be very little, since the next day I might find something better. That doesn't mean I'm not fully open to better definitions and changing my mind. Jung doesn't have better model definitions--they don't work as particularly useful or true indicators of people, from my and others' experience. Logic and my experience simply say that Jung has no strong purpose in a useful typology system compared to something like Socionics or better. Trump doesn't have primary Se for one, so many people don't fit any of these primary functions, there is no function which I don't relate equally well to the exact opposite of. That's why people move onto better models and make better models. I don't follow Socionics but have incorporated its and Jung's more realistic components, and others' of whom I'm always open to change 180 degrees my comprehension. It depends on the data, I've done it many times throughout the years. Coming here to consider Jung as the authority, to me is useless, because why don't we make Vesalius the one authority on anatomy? I'm open to your understanding in the hope that it's different from Jung, but I try to hold onto the best ideas. Trump seems to have very little similarity to real Se types by means of "Sensation existing primarily in the Extravert" = Se---he has no primary Sensation. Being open to better models is the only way I can grow in understanding. But as you say, there's no reason to find some consensus model we agree upon if it's not a more optimum representation of how the functions really manifest in people. I'm always shooting to understand the real functions as they manifest. If you want to explain your hidden model, I'm open to it.
 

Dashy CVII

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If he matches how you define Te, great, he can be a Te type to you.

Sure and fair enough. Group-thinking Trump into Se primary might sound right to you. Though, there will always be people heavily disagreeing, and sometimes the consensual typing of someone changes the next year. Like I think Obama was heavily typed ENFJ (which I agree more with), then he got turned into an ENTP by the forum. People thought Dr. House was surely an INTJ, then he turned into an ENTP too. Reasons for these typings are evolutionary, the popular model definitions change and that seems to have no indication on whether they're right or good. My response in this thread is based on what I think is truth, what is the exemplar manifestation of Thinking gone Extraverted, and might only have been a potential reason for people in this thread who disagree with Se dominant. There is always an exit from the classical trappings of Jung and its limitations; we can get closer to reality.
 

Turi

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Hmm, you seem to post like you know who I am, but are mistaken. Since there are potentially thousands of ways understanding could go down, my likeliness of accepting one person's opinion of the typological model would be very little, since the next day I might find something better. That doesn't mean I'm not fully open to better definitions and changing my mind. Jung doesn't have better model definitions--they don't work as particularly useful or true indicators of people, from mine and others' experience. Trump doesn't have primary Se for one, so many people don't fit any of these primary functions, there is no function which I don't relate equally well to the exact opposite of. That's why people move onto better models and make better models, my logic and experience says that Jung has no strong purpose in a useful typology system compared to something like Socionics or better. I don't follow Socionics but improve upon it, Jung and others' of whom I'm always open to change 180 degrees my comprehension. It depends on the data, I've done it several times throughout the years. Coming here to consider Jung as the authority, to me is useless, because why don't we make Vesalius the one authority on anatomy? I'm open to your understanding. Trump seems to have very little similarity to real Se types by means of "Sensation existing primarily in the Extravert" = Se---he has no primary Sensation. Being open to better models is the only way I can grow in understanding. But as you say, there's no reason to find some consensus model we agree upon if it's not a more optimum representation of how the functions really manifest in people. I'm always shooting to understand the real functions as they manifest. If you want to explain your hidden model, I'm open to it.

I just realized you're taking Jungs descriptors in Chapter X too seriously - he actually notes not to do just that in Psychological Types, noting they are no more than Galtonesque portraits of the types (ie, pure forms of the types, and therefore unrealistic).

I don't really need to explain the model I prefer:
YouTube

It's new, basically in a beta-stage, so I'm not exactly running around touting as the gospel truth - but what I can say, with confidence, is that it's producing consistent results across numerous people that are learning the method.

I've got nothing against people like yourself that prefer to be entirely subjective, create your own little definitions, think you're "improving" systems etc - that's cool - I personally prefer logical external consistency - which is to say, I'm only interested in models that work for many people - so that everyone (that wants to) can learn the method, apply it, and achieve consistent results - consistent, as in, the same results as everyone else.

Note here - this is out of a possible 512 types, so the odds of actually pulling it off are statistically very low - but, I and others learning the method are doing great.
Compare this to how typology is right now. People can't even agree on S or N. That's like, 2 things, and there's no consensus, there'll be fights about it, arguments about terminology and how things should be defined - conversations like this, that derail into one person trying to "correct" another persons understandings, etc etc.

Within the model I prefer (even though I stuck to a Jungian typing in my first response here, only elaborating on this other model because you asked) - this doesn't happen, people have a concern, others just point out what it says on the checklist, or refer to class material or YT vids etc - understandably - this means to begin with, people are bound by how the creators of the method define things - some people find this difficult to accept for a number of reasons.

The most glaring one I see, is people are bound by MBTI understandings, which is absurd considering MBTI doesn't even test for functions - the method is more true to Jung than any other method (Socionics included) yet it's not forced into only a Jungian approach because - as you've noted, as I've noted (elsewhere) and as many others have noted - that stuff is like 100 years old, and is definitely out-dated - there've been significant amendments since then and there are multiple models slide right into Jungs work and in some respects, replace it as they make more sense, are still in the same spirit yet are consistently trackable.

One such example is Tony Robbins Human Needs - this method makes use of them - four of them essentially being used to understand and track the four outer-temperaments (IJ, IP, EJ, EP) - and, it works, it actually works - it's consistent, people are learning it, applying it, producing the same or similar results as others are - it's proving (to me) that it's got something real to it - some people might be like "wut, Tony Robbins? That's not Jung or Myers" but if it works, well, progress is being made, imo - similar perspective you likely have about your own understandings and definitions.

I do consider Jung an authority on some things (the functions specifically, he's still a great resource for, but you have to understand that Chapter X of Psychological Types is intentionally presenting warped descriptors) - however when new theories and models are being proven to be more "real" ie, objectively trackable (much of Jungs work is not measurable and so he's barely mentioned in modern psychology degrees which have a far more scientific bent than the days of old).

Anyway that's enough of that, if you've got any questions feel free to PM me.

Sure and fair enough. Group-thinking Trump into Se primary might sound right to you. Though, there will always be people heavily disagreeing, and sometimes the consensual typing of someone changes the next year. Like I think Obama was an ENFJ (which I agree more with), then he got turned by the forum into an ENTP. People thought Dr. House was surely an INTJ, then he turned into an ENTP. Reasons for these typings are evolutionary, the popular models change. My response in this thread is based on what I think is truth, what is the exemplar manifestation of Thinking gone Extraverted, and might only have been a potential reason for people in this thread who disagree with Se dominant. There is always an exit from the classical trappings of Jung and its limitations.

The general consensus changes because the more vocal members wind up brainwashing others into believing their own subjective understandings, I don't believe for a second there is any complete shift in understandings as time rolls by.
 

Dashy CVII

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That's great. You know you can just do this yourself too: find a more useful model of typology, one with a useful purpose like Quadras or making strong predictions about relationships, like some of the typologies I follow that I don't talk about here, and make a checklist to efficiently type individuals. It doesn't need to be a social outlet: to me, it's practical and needs intelligent deeper minds to figure out, not the public. Oftentimes these easy-to-understand-for-all typologies end up like Jung's as generally useless, simplified and unapplicable to real relationships and predictions, but a mixed-bag of information people think is beneficial. But if you can test-control typing people yourself, like utilizing the typology in your link on your own time, you can surely verify its consistency with celebs and people you know better than the public consensus can. I hope you find a truly useful typology. The most pure usefulness of my typology is that it fits 100% with objective reality in the sense that it's noncontradictory with the real manifestations of the functions, but I'll explain that below. But I'll definitely look at this guy's videos for more ideas. That's something I'm always open to doing.

As far as calling my definitions "little definitions," I wouldn't go too far. My definitions are simply the objective application of the terms: we know what Extraversion vs Introversion really are thanks to observing people using the Jungian terms, so we can stop defining Te and Se in special terms, when Te is literally the primary orientation of someone with Logic and Extraversion first. Because Logic and Extraversion top the rest, they cannot be another primary function and thus are representatives of Te dominance and why Te is defined specifically in the links I gave. You're reading real Ti from me, as an INTJ I buy into a little Ti with typology and other subjects, but not that much. A problem occurs in typing once we need to type someone as a whole, not in specific encounters or subjects, because these manifestations only help to signal our overall psyche: the space we move through to act. My logic is overall externally manifest, manifest by the situation---my intuition is very internally manifest, detached from the object. Te is the logical behavior for the situation VS Ti which is internal modeling of reality, and we know everybody uses all the functions to various degrees. Thus in order to type me correctly, you would need to know me in everyday situations. (However, we can follow the true essence of Te better than definitions, by becoming familiar with the real Primary Thinking + Extraverts as they act and behave. This moves into what I meant by caring mostly for "deeper minds" typing correctly, avoid the mass ignorance of the public, there's no need for this to be a social thing, and just stick to the people who can think. We can get far together.) Now that I have the video to where I assume you use to type Trump Se dominant, it should be interesting to learn what you think Se is. Thanks for the friendly and interesting responding.

PS: by the way I added more to my post above.
 

Turi

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That's great. You know you can just do this yourself too: find a more useful model of typology, one with a useful purpose like Quadras or making strong predictions about relationships, like some of the typologies I follow that I don't talk about here, and make a checklist to efficiently type individuals. It doesn't need to be a social outlet: to me, it's practical and needs intelligent deeper minds to figure out, not the public. Oftentimes these easy-to-understand-for-all typologies end up like Jung's as generally useless, simplified and unapplicable to real relationships and predictions, but a mixed-bag of information people are not aware is. If you can control typologies yourself, like this one in your link, on your own time, you can surely verify its consistency with celebs and people you know better than the public can. I hope you find a truly useful typology. The most pure usefulness of my typology is that it fits 100% with objective reality, which I'll explain below. But I'll definitely look at this guy's videos for more ideas. That's something I'm always open to doing.

Eh. I prefer external consistency - I'm not a fan of say, just me learning all the material and then what I learn not matching what others are learning and applying.
If there's no consistency among people using the model, it's not any different to anything else for me - but, I've been learning it for a few months now, and can literally see people improving and producing more and more consistent results so so far so good, no need to shift.

There's no such thing as 100% objective reality, fwiw. I'll bring up Jung again just for kicks - this is actually the reason the descriptors in Chapter X are written the way they are - because he knew (and noted in Psychological Types) that people are prone to their own biases and everyone has their own subjective perception of reality - so it didn't make sense for him to approach the descriptors of the types from an "observer" ie "objective" perspective - see: the Summary of the Extraverted Rational type section in Psychological Types.

As far as calling my definitions "little definitions," I wouldn't go too far. My definitions are simply the objective application of the terms: we know what Extraversion vs Introversion really are in Jung, we can stop defining Se, Te in special terms, when Te is literally the primary orientation of someone with Logic and Extraversion first. Because they're first, they cannot be another primary function and thus are representatives of Te dominance and it is why Te is defined specifically in the links I gave, it is the logical behavior for the situation VS a clear internal model of reality. (Of course this sentence is just the short-hand simplification. We can follow the true essence of Te by becoming familiar with the real Primary Sensing + Extraverts, as they act and behave. This is what I mean by "deeper minds" being able to type correctly.) Now that I have the video to where I assume you use to Trump Se dominant, it should be interesting to learn what you think is Se.

Well there we go - they're not simply your objective application of the terms - they are prone to your own subjective interpretations - I disagree to some extent with viewing Thinking as "Logic" as well though I understand this is from a Socionics perspective.

With regards to proving Trump is an Se dominant - I could basically link anything, but it's cross-checked with his inferior intuition.
Can you say the same for Trump and an inferior Feeling?

I don't see any value in playing the functions game without playing it properly, which of course includes cross-checking the opposing function-in-attitudes - in this case, that's Fi for you considering you've pegged him as a Te dominant - can you support this?
 

Dashy CVII

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Eh. I prefer external consistency - I'm not a fan of say, just me learning all the material and then what I learn not matching what others are learning and applying.

Interesting, interesting... Well, my main priority is effectiveness and prediction-making, depth etc. Anything else like others being able to apply it, is moot. I can verify relationship effectiveness and chemistry using my own observations and the uninformed quotes of the subjects, I don't need the common folk. Like a sound scientific theory or good book or musical piece, you oft have to search deeply and away from popular pop-psychology to find holistic truth or meaning. Else it's a circular ideal playing out before your eyes, and you eventually have to end it, like it ended for me.

In this case, that's Fi for you considering you've pegged him as a Te dominant - can you support this?

Yes I can. Trump to me is a typical ESTJ, and so because he uses T > S > N > F , Feeling is still a perfectly used function. Would you like me to look into him more for you about inferior Fi? Or want to move onto something more interesting? I might move onto something more interesting for the moment. We can carry on to something else or go over more Trump gump.

I disagree to some extent with viewing Thinking as "Logic" as well though I understand this is from a Socionics perspective.

Same. I use logic as a synonym for thinking in certain contexts, but 'thinking' fits the overall psychology of Te/Ti.
 

Turi

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Interesting, interesting, interesting!... Well, my main priority is effectiveness and prediction-making, depth etc. I don't care too much if something becomes popular. Good things you have to search out, like a good book or musical piece, they're never popular.

I don't care if something is or becomes popular either - my main priority is external logical consistency - within that, effectiveness and prediction-making are obviously a given.
With regards to depth - I'm a fan of depth for my own personal enjoyment, however I'm not a fan of overly complex theories on a wider spectrum because ultimately, I find they become prone to subjective understandings as people create their own shortcuts in order to understand the material, and this means consistency (and therefore, effectiveness and prediction-making) begins to fall to unacceptable levels.

I agree, for the good things, you have to seek them out yourself - the method I use isn't exactly "popular" and as a matter of fact, I was lambasted quite a bit on PersonalityCafe for switching over to it and attempting to help people learn a new, consistent method - people in general have a very hard time adapting to something new - and some folk have literally decades of old, stagnant, subjective information in their brains - these types of people will fight tooth and nail against anything that threatens their own subjectivity.

I'm fortunate enough here in that I'm relatively new to typology, found out about it roughly this time last year give or take a couple of months, and so do not have decades of old, non-trackable information corrupting my perception and my thinking.

Yes I can. Trump to me is a typical ESTJ. Would you like me to look into him more for you about inferior Fi? Or want to move onto something more interesting? I might move onto something more interesting for the moment. We can carry on to something else or go over more Trump gump.

I'm not particularly bothered - I know he doesn't fit Te savior and Fi demon within the system I use - I'd have a read of whatever argument you put forth using your own definitions etc, but it's not going to be something that will convince me - I'm positive he's an Se savior within the model I prefer.
I also don't believe he fits the Extraverted Thinking type from a Jungian perspective.
Following pure MBTI dichotomy, I also believe he's an E, S, T and a P though if there's one letter I'd perhaps content (not considering functions, just dichotomy), it'd be the T - I think his T/F are relatively balanced compared to his S-N.
 

Dashy CVII

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Well, "oftentimes these easy-to-understand-for-all typologies end up like Jung's as generally useless, simplified and unapplicable to real relationships and predictions, but a mixed-bag of information people think is beneficial." That's my general experience with them. I'm prescribed to several typologies, open-minded to yours since its new to me, and I know the kind of people you're talking about--no amount of thinking or consideration for new perspectives, they're absolutely everywhere. From your earlier posts, you didn't seem interested in other theories, but you can join my discussion group of open-minded people where we can grow in function understanding. I hope you don't mistake the ability of your typology to be "used by many," with something actually useful that makes deep and beneficial predictions. Because a smarter, rarer, more capable person, will find more use out of a tool nobody understands, like a metaphor for the human psyche itself--a puzzle for the genii. That should be the ultimate aim. But unfortunately I have to start with theories of Jung, Socionics, others, and branch off, because that's what I know. Start with what you know, then you can realize what you don't know and explore it. Strange that we always have to begin with ourselves in order to understand what's outside ourselves.

With typing, I really need to see the whole overall persona of an individual, not overfocus on certain instances. Like in the school of typology, many people become Ti-oriented, but what are they really like overall and in their day? There's a much larger persona to each person, that doesn't fit into a forum or discussion group.
 

Turi

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With typing, I really need to see the whole overall persona of an individual, not overfocus on certain instances. Like in the school of typology, many people become Ti-oriented, but what are they really like overall and in their day? There's a much larger persona to each person, that doesn't fit into a forum or discussion group.
Yep, same here and a slow approach to typing is advocated in the model I prefer as well.

Typing based on one post, comment, sentence, YouTube clip etc etc is terrible - need to build up a big picture version of what the person is, and you have to notice consistent patterns, have to ensure what you're tracking is repeated, basically we track patterns not just one-off instances.

Definitely have to respect and type the actual person, not a snapshot from one single day in any form, etc.
This is sorely lacking in the typology realm at the moment, whereby everyone tries to speed type and vibe type, and it's all subjective nonsense with no substance, no proofs, no research, no respecting the individual and no observation of consistent life patterns and no consistency among the masses.
 

Dashy CVII

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[MENTION=33869]Turi[/MENTION] I carefully typed myself according to your theory. I am wondering, do you have examples of each type to look at? Places where you and others type famous people. I'm interested in how it's been applied, as that seems like the next phase of careful inspection.

You can type me yourself, but this is what I got:
 

Turi

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[MENTION=33869]Turi[/MENTION] I carefully typed myself according to your theory. I am wondering, do you have examples of each type to look at? Places where you and others type famous people. I'm interested in how it's been applied, as that seems like the next phase of careful inspection.

You can type me yourself, but this is what I got:

I do and I'll PM you tomorrow - it's late here - re: INTJ - the MBTI letters aren't really a part of the typing method, there's 32 different "INTJs" - I'll cover this in the PM.
 

Poki

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I just realized you're taking Jungs descriptors in Chapter X too seriously - he actually notes not to do just that in Psychological Types, noting they are no more than Galtonesque portraits of the types (ie, pure forms of the types, and therefore unrealistic).

I don't really need to explain the model I prefer:
YouTube

It's new, basically in a beta-stage, so I'm not exactly running around touting as the gospel truth - but what I can say, with confidence, is that it's producing consistent results across numerous people that are learning the method.

I've got nothing against people like yourself that prefer to be entirely subjective, create your own little definitions, think you're "improving" systems etc - that's cool - I personally prefer logical external consistency - which is to say, I'm only interested in models that work for many people - so that everyone (that wants to) can learn the method, apply it, and achieve consistent results - consistent, as in, the same results as everyone else.

Note here - this is out of a possible 512 types, so the odds of actually pulling it off are statistically very low - but, I and others learning the method are doing great.
Compare this to how typology is right now. People can't even agree on S or N. That's like, 2 things, and there's no consensus, there'll be fights about it, arguments about terminology and how things should be defined - conversations like this, that derail into one person trying to "correct" another persons understandings, etc etc.

Within the model I prefer (even though I stuck to a Jungian typing in my first response here, only elaborating on this other model because you asked) - this doesn't happen, people have a concern, others just point out what it says on the checklist, or refer to class material or YT vids etc - understandably - this means to begin with, people are bound by how the creators of the method define things - some people find this difficult to accept for a number of reasons.

The most glaring one I see, is people are bound by MBTI understandings, which is absurd considering MBTI doesn't even test for functions - the method is more true to Jung than any other method (Socionics included) yet it's not forced into only a Jungian approach because - as you've noted, as I've noted (elsewhere) and as many others have noted - that stuff is like 100 years old, and is definitely out-dated - there've been significant amendments since then and there are multiple models slide right into Jungs work and in some respects, replace it as they make more sense, are still in the same spirit yet are consistently trackable.

One such example is Tony Robbins Human Needs - this method makes use of them - four of them essentially being used to understand and track the four outer-temperaments (IJ, IP, EJ, EP) - and, it works, it actually works - it's consistent, people are learning it, applying it, producing the same or similar results as others are - it's proving (to me) that it's got something real to it - some people might be like "wut, Tony Robbins? That's not Jung or Myers" but if it works, well, progress is being made, imo - similar perspective you likely have about your own understandings and definitions.

I do consider Jung an authority on some things (the functions specifically, he's still a great resource for, but you have to understand that Chapter X of Psychological Types is intentionally presenting warped descriptors) - however when new theories and models are being proven to be more "real" ie, objectively trackable (much of Jungs work is not measurable and so he's barely mentioned in modern psychology degrees which have a far more scientific bent than the days of old).

Anyway that's enough of that, if you've got any questions feel free to PM me.



The general consensus changes because the more vocal members wind up brainwashing others into believing their own subjective understandings, I don't believe for a second there is any complete shift in understandings as time rolls by.

I watched several of his videos and they are pretty good. I have some minor issues disagreeances, but all in all its pretty good and those disagreeances coupd probably be explained out by him or fall into true opinion/preference
 

Poki

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[MENTION=33869]Turi[/MENTION] after watching those videos his life revolves around Tribe VERY heavily which is an IP/EJ thing. His ego side fits it, his tweet side, every aspect of him is Tribe based. He is one big IMAGE. Caps used for focus, not yelling.
 
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