Where is she assuming that? I appreciated toonia's post and thought she was pretty intellectually honest. And while I'm religious myself, I can still agree that many people use religion for the ends she mentioned, unfortunate though that may be.
still waiting for you to name one precept central to christianity that embodies the spirit of reasonI already pointed to St. Thomas Aquinas. But here's Justin Martyr, who was an early Christian figure:
"Reason directs those who are truly pious and philosophical to honour and love only what is true, declining to follow traditional opinions, if these be worthless. For not only does sound reason direct us to refuse the guidance of those who did or taught anything wrong, but it is incumbent on the lover of truth, by all means, and if death be threatened, even before his own life, to choose to do and say what is right."
still waiting for you to name one precept central to christianity that embodies the spirit of reason
yeah because it really matters so much how i phrase a question.1. Not what you asked at first.
2. Embodies the spirit of reason? What are you looking for here? This seems like an absurd criterion for determining whether a religion is reasonable. It really seems like you're just trying to set up a criterion for judgement that is sufficiently strict so as to justify your desired conclusion.
My INTP and I are both Christians, met at Bible college in fact, but we pretty much find going to church torturous. The music is good sometimes and sometimes I find people that I enjoy getting to know but oftentimes the sermons are unbelievably dumb and, being Evangelical, they want to get some kind of emotional response from people. Highly uncomfortable. There is no way we would go if we didn't believe in God and believe that he commanded believers to meet regularly for worship. Even then sometimes we can't make ourselves do it.
yeah because it really matters so much how i phrase a question.
no religious thought holds up to the test of reason.
see, an honest person starts with facts and proceeds to conclusion.
thats the flaw of religion, their failure to do this.
and then you get into speific examples:
1- christian view of hell (calling it just)
2- christian view of justice
3- christian view of "free will" (free will is supposed to be immune from punishment or reward)
4- christianity = moral example yet bible endorses slavery and mysogeny, genocide and discrimination
5- original sin (god creats flawed creature, blames creature for flaws)
you can't fault me for being critical to religion on a thread about hating religion. i'd really like to see you defend your god sending people to hell, i dont think you will be able to, not intellligently, since all the court systems down here (enlightend ones) understand justice, ie:[I'm going to take a break, and then respond if it still seems wise]
still waiting for you to name one precept central to christianity that embodies the spirit of reason
If we get to the point that we can't make ourselves go to our current church that's probably going to be the direction we head. We're going to our local Salvation Army chapel right now and like everything except the sermons/Sunday school lessons, including the pastor that gives said sermons/lessons. At least they don't spout fiscal conservative propaganda from the pulpit.Hey cafe, have you guys ever tried out a liturgical church? I know for me much of evangelicalism just didn't connect with me growing up and plenty of it could be obnoxious, but I really found a spiritual home of sorts in liturgy. I started going to an Anglican church a few years ago in college, and while a liturgical church wasn't where I ever expected to find myself, I quickly fell in love with it. I loved the deep connection to history, the aesthetics of it all, the contemplative nature, the willingness to engage the mind with not just words but also symbolic acts, etc, and the vast theological depth of just about every line in the liturgy. It also made it so that, even when the sermon wasn't great, it didn't really matter all that much because of how much I was able to receive from the liturgy and the eucharist. Anyway, just a thought
a complex idea built upon a hollow shell is a complex idea built upon a hollow shellHow about Jesus Christ, who was reason embodied?
Don't believe me? Look at the prologue to the Gospel of John in the original Greek.
If we get to the point that we can't make ourselves go to our current church that's probably going to be the direction we head. We're going to our local Salvation Army chapel right now and like everything except the sermons/Sunday school lessons, including the pastor that gives said sermons/lessons. At least they don't spout fiscal conservative propaganda from the pulpit.
I probably seem to assume that in part for the sake of argument, but was trying to point out the issue of dismissal as "stupid" thinking that either differs and/or is irrational. There are a number of contributions to philosophy and reason related to religious thought. I don't entirely hold a position because it is a rather broad topic to reduce to a single position.Yes but it seems you're assuming that religion by its very nature means irrationality, which is not necessarily the case. I already pointed to St. Thomas Aquinas before, but even the Islamic philosopher Averroes noted that faith and reason are means towards the same end - ie the truth.
I already pointed to St. Thomas Aquinas before, but even the Islamic philosopher Averroes noted that faith and reason are means towards the same end - ie the truth.
How about Jesus Christ, who was reason embodied?
Don't believe me? Look at the prologue to the Gospel of John in the original Greek.
is that in support of becasue god says so or agianst it?If you do not allow the explanation for anything religious to be "Because God said so," everything begins to make sense.
is that in support of becasue god says so or agianst it?