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I am cynical about politics.

Kephalos

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And until a few months ago, I was fine with it. After all, it's natural that people, in every profession not excludig politics, will follow their narrow self-interest -- that selflessness is the exception, not the rule. The leaders of my country, Mexico, are doing the same that other populist leaders have been doing to deal with the COVID-19 pandemic: deny what can be plausibly denied, minimize what can't be denied, and generally be as reckless as they can get away with. Like I said, most of the time I don't care about politicians being selfish, but now, under these circumstances, it seemed like a good opportunity to rise to the occasion. It's unsettling to know that people that have so much power over you, that could, if they wanted to (it's not a question of whether it's possible, because it is), prevent death and suffering, simply choose not to.
 

Lark

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And until a few months ago, I was fine with it. After all, it's natural that people, in every profession not excludig politics, will follow their narrow self-interest -- that selflessness is the exception, not the rule. The leaders of my country, Mexico, are doing the same that other populist leaders have been doing to deal with the COVID-19 pandemic: deny what can be plausibly denied, minimize what can't be denied, and generally be as reckless as they can get away with. Like I said, most of the time I don't care about politicians being selfish, but now, under these circumstances, it seemed like a good opportunity to rise to the occasion. It's unsettling to know that people that have so much power over you, that could, if they wanted to (it's not a question of whether it's possible, because it is), prevent death and suffering, simply choose not to.

Sins of omissions or simply class struggle business as usual?
 

Vendrah

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And until a few months ago, I was fine with it. After all, it's natural that people, in every profession not excludig politics, will follow their narrow self-interest -- that selflessness is the exception, not the rule. The leaders of my country, Mexico, are doing the same that other populist leaders have been doing to deal with the COVID-19 pandemic: deny what can be plausibly denied, minimize what can't be denied, and generally be as reckless as they can get away with. Like I said, most of the time I don't care about politicians being selfish, but now, under these circumstances, it seemed like a good opportunity to rise to the occasion. It's unsettling to know that people that have so much power over you, that could, if they wanted to (it's not a question of whether it's possible, because it is), prevent death and suffering, simply choose not to.

Im from Brazil and its worst.

The number of lies that I get on whatsapp and get from family members, even not communicating that much from them, is quite high.

I have extreme right wing because of that. The lies are insanely natural, the carelessness of Bolsonaro is psychopathic and people treat like he cares.
 

Kephalos

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Im from Brazil and its worst.

The number of lies that I get on whatsapp and get from family members, even not communicating that much from them, is quite high.

I have extreme right wing because of that. The lies are insanely natural, the carelessness of Bolsonaro is psychopathic and people treat like he cares.

I read that Bolsonaro himself got COVID-19 and still didn't observe quarantine/distancing measures even then.

The Mexican president assumed office in december 2018 with promises that the economy would grow 4% -- but had a very lackluster first year. In March 2020, right before the lockdown began in Mexico, there had been a very brutal murder of a woman by her partner, widely reported, and which caused protests against violence against women here. Ever since the lockdown began there has been a lot of pressure from the government to restart normal economic activity, especially the public works the government had pushed for in 2019. "Everything is OK" is the motto during the pandemic. Anyway.
 

Virtual ghost

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We're all dealing with populist bastards. Aren't we lucky.


Not everyone, but wherever there are textbook anti-science populists in play the situation has gone to shit.
But on the other hand this seems to be two sided highway, because that is what seems to be clearly undermining the populist wave. Which we all observe over the last few years.
 

Virtual ghost

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Politicians who pretend to not be completely self interested are even worse.



This is factually false.
In the case you said "American politicians" I would perhaps agree, but if you put it this way the claim simply doesn't stand. Especially in countries with developed multiparty democracies where genuine political forces have much easier time becoming politically relevant. Actually "They are all the same" is one of the main punchlines for distimulating the vote and making sure that only partisan people vote. However politics simply isn't fundamentally "dirty sport", it can be but that is not set in stone.
 

anticlimatic

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This is factually false. In the case you said "American politicians" I would perhaps agree, but if you put it this way the claim simply doesn't stand. Especially in countries with developed multiparty democracies where genuine political forces have much easier time becoming politically relevant. Actually "They are all the same" is one of the main punchlines for distimulating the vote and making sure that only partisan people vote. However politics simply isn't fundamentally "dirty sport", it can be but that is not set in stone.
I disagree. Prove it if you can, and I might change my mind.
 

Virtual ghost

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I disagree. Prove it if you can, and I might change my mind.



That is a very complicated matter about which you can write books, but I will try. Therefore I suppose it is best that I start with the political system that I know the best (my own). Which isn't 100% perfect but it isn't really something that justifies 100% cynical attitude. For example here after elections for the parliament each party gets money that is proportional to the amount of seats they have won. What means that if you have at least half decent grass-roots base you can completely work with what you have (and live from more than decent salary). Therefore fundamentally you don't need "donors" in the whole mix. I mean this whole process is designed as anti-corruption measure. Also there is another law that says that any gift above 80$ to a person on political function will be treated as bribes. It seems that there are limited ways how to game this but many politicians had serious legal problems with these kinds of stuff. One prime minister had to leave office in the middle of the term and he ended in prison over money issues. Also over the years a decent number of high ranking politicians had to leave over these kinds of issues and some even ended in prison due to corruption related reasons. As a matter of fact even what was the richest person in the country is now awaiting a series of trials for all his shenanigans. In other words this kinds of stuff opened the door for political forces that actually aren't just about increasing their personal wealth. While actually in a way all of this is possible exactly because there are political forces that are wiling to fight high level corruption in the system.




However this is where genuine multiparty system is crucial. Because donors can buy as many politicians under the table as they want but people can always invent new party out of thin air and vote for it. In other words through that they can bypass the donors and get genuine politicians, which will hopefully purge the corruption problems even further. Therefore sooner will donors run out of money then the country will run out of at least half decent people. Plus in this country there are no primaries where elites calculate with certainties. Therefore what I have in practice still isn't 100% perfect but it doesn't make complete cynicism justified. So in my book if one thing needs introducing into US that is evidently genuine multiparty system, because after that the problems will start to clear out naturally. Since with this you get genuine alternatives. To be honest at this point I have so many political parties in the parliament that I can't even name them all just out of my head. But the number should be somewhere around 20 (however they have divided themselves into blocks to make things more simple, since there is truly plenty of them). Therefore out of all those parties something like a third can be defined as "conservative". So instead that I have 1 conservative party in the parliament like you I have something like 7 of them ... and that is exactly because not all of them are "same old, same old". While there is exactly the same thing on the left and in the center.


Or if you want it in concrete. In my parliament we have parties that want to lower the salary of people that are chosen in the parliament, therefore I fail to see how that is genuinely "self interested". Not to mention that in current parliament I have ex blue uniform cop that personally had a crusade again local drug dealers in it's community. I have one guy that led the movement against the project that would have polluted what is the biggest tank of fresh water in the country (He was both born and elected there, and he succeeded. What is part of the cake what he got another term). I have anti-corruption professional that already caught and sanctioned some people. I have people who led the fight against the big banks (which now have to return overpaid interests to their clients), some of our funding fathers are still alive, I have people that are for phasing out dirty energy and further boosting our recycling efforts ... etc. I mean none of those are in the same party but are scattered literally all around political spectrum. Also I don't have a single political party in the parliament that opposes "healthcare as a human right", what is great in the times like current COVID mess. Therefore we also have not too expensive and sometimes even out of pocket money free prescription drugs. What is exactly because politics is holding big pharma under control for the most part. The healthcare system is even sending older people invitations that they come to hospitals for "free" cancer testing. Since finding it sooner boosts the chance of survival and it also costs much less than reactive approach to the issue (so everyone profits in some way, since taxpayer has probably survived). Not to mention that our politics keeps GM food banned, while it would probably be profitable for them not to do so.


However finding the proofs for all of this in English is hard or perhaps even impossible, not to mention that this is too large for a single post (but I posted some of that over the years). Therefore step by step this country is becoming a fairly decent democracy if you judge by global standards. So for the end of this post I can only say that you do your own research on other and genuine democracies. Places like western or northern Europe, Australia, Canada, democracies of the far east, etc. I am pretty sure you will find plenty of politicians that aren't just about personal gains. I mean these are the places where you have higher than average concentrations of such political figures, even if they exist all over the world to some extend.
 

anticlimatic

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That is a very complicated matter about which you can write books, but I will try. Therefore I suppose it is best that I start with the political system that I know the best (my own). Which isn't 100% perfect but it isn't really something that justifies 100% cynical attitude. For example here after elections for the parliament each party gets money that is proportional to the amount of seats they have won. What means that if you have at least half decent grass-roots base you can completely work with what you have (and live from more than decent salary). Therefore fundamentally you don't need "donors" in the whole mix. I mean this whole process is designed as anti-corruption measure. Also there is another law that says that any gift above 80$ to a person on political function will be treated as bribes. It seems that there are limited ways how to game this but many politicians had serious legal problems with these kinds of stuff. One prime minister had to leave office in the middle of the term and he ended in prison over money issues. Also over the years a decent number of high ranking politicians had to leave over these kinds of issues and some even ended in prison due to corruption related reasons. As a matter of fact even what was the richest person in the country is now awaiting a series of trials for all his shenanigans. In other words this kinds of stuff opened the door for political forces that actually aren't just about increasing their personal wealth. While actually in a way all of this is possible exactly because there are political forces that are wiling to fight high level corruption in the system. However this is where genuine multiparty system is crucial. Because donors can buy as many politicians under the table as they want but people can always invent new party out of thin air and vote for it. In other words through that they can bypass the donors and get genuine politicians, which will hopefully purge the corruption problems even further. Therefore sooner will donors run out of money then the country will run out of at least half decent people. Plus in this country there are no primaries where elites calculate with certainties. Therefore what I have in practice still isn't 100% perfect but it doesn't make complete cynicism justified. So in my book if one thing needs introducing into US that is evidently genuine multiparty system, because after that the problems will start to clear out naturally. Since with this you get genuine alternatives. To be honest at this point I have so many political parties in the parliament that I can't even name them all just out of my head. But the number should be somewhere around 20 (however they have divided themselves into blocks to make things more simple, since there is truly plenty of them). Therefore out of all those parties something like a third can be defined as "conservative". So instead that I have 1 conservative party in the parliament like you I have something like 7 of them ... and that is exactly because not all of them are "same old, same old". While there is exactly the same thing on the left and in the center. Or if you want it in concrete. In my parliament we have parties that want to lower the salary of people that are chosen in the parliament, therefore I fail to see how that is genuinely "self interested". Not to mention that in current parliament I have ex blue uniform cop that personally had a crusade again local drug dealers in it's community. I have one guy that led the movement against the project that would have polluted what is the biggest tank of fresh water in the country (He was both born and elected there, and he succeeded. What is part of the cake what he got another term). I have anti-corruption professional that already caught and sanctioned some people. I have people who led the fight against the big banks (which now have to return overpaid interests to their clients), some of our funding fathers are still alive, I have people that are for phasing out dirty energy and further boosting our recycling efforts ... etc. I mean none of those are in the same party but are scattered literally all around political spectrum. Also I don't have a single political party in the parliament that opposes "healthcare as a human right", what is great in the times like current COVID mess. Therefore we also have not too expensive and sometimes even out of pocket money free prescription drugs. What is exactly because politics is holding big pharma under control for the most part. The healthcare system is even sending older people invitations that they come to hospitals for "free" cancer testing. Since finding it sooner boosts the chance of survival and it also costs much less than reactive approach to the issue (so everyone profits in some way, since taxpayer has probably survived). Not to mention that our politics keeps GM food banned, while it would probably be profitable for them not to do so. However finding the proofs for all of this in English is hard or perhaps even impossible, not to mention that this is too large for a single post (but I posted some of that over the years). Therefore step by step this country is becoming a fairly decent democracy if you judge by global standards. So for the end of this post I can only say that you do your own research on other and genuine democracies. Places like western or northern Europe, Australia, Canada, democracies of the far east, etc. I am pretty sure you will find plenty of politicians that aren't just about personal gains. I mean these are the places where you have higher than average concentrations of such political figures, even if they exist all over the world to some extend.
I like how your country handles political donations better than the US. Like all reasonable individuals, I don't think elections should be preemptively paid for by an establishment that has profited off of them for decades. I'm not sure how long your multi party system is going to last. Yours is a very young country, and power tends to settle after a while. I wouldn't be surprised if your parties began to consolidate themselves. If one party in particular started gaining inertia and mass it would start sucking in similar parties. But who knows, maybe the measures you have in place will prevent corruption, but that's no easy feat. If there's a loophole to be found, it will be, and the more complicated the system is the more loopholes will come with that.

But more to the point, I wasn't talking about systems at all, but people. And maybe we fundamentally disagree on this as well. I consider self interest a universal human principal- perhaps even the bedrock of reason itself. I don't think it is a bad thing, especially if it's understood that working together on things is often directly self interested as well. Doing the right thing on a moral level is self interested, as having a sense of honor and integrity is good not only for the psyche, but also the surrounding community, which again benefits the self that is living within it. It's easy to parse out seemingly selfless action without considering it in the wider more selfish context, but I think it's important (always) to be contextually thorough. When it comes to politics and more specifically politicians, we have taken a step away from average individuals operating in their own self interests, towards individuals operating in their own self interests who also want power over others. And this is the game they play. Gaining power over their political rivals is just practice for the ultimate role of having power over the populations of their respective jurisdictions, the means of which are always the same- lie to people about whatever they want to hear. Do you have any examples of politicians who haven't done this? Or more importantly, who haven't done this and succeeded anyway? I can't think of a worse type of person myself than someone who would be drawn to politics- especially the type of person that has deceived themselves, usually via a martyr messianic complex, that they are the "good guy," sent from above to bring peace and order to the galaxy.
 

Lark

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All the "greed is good" and TINA (there is no alternative) thinking is a result of misreading and misunderstanding Adam Smith and other similar thinkers.

They'd not endorse what is happening at all.

Legitimate self-interest is nothing like the personality disordered kind of thing that people in high office seem to be exhibiting at the moment. Its not a matter of splitting hairs or semantics either as observations go.

Even Machavelli's realpolitik observations of "Greed is" rather than "Greed is good" was always meant to provoke a kind of public republicianism which would keep anyone in office honest rather than satisfying all the the cynics that it was "just the way things are". There's a decent book out now on Amazon about how economics has largely just become a set of excuses to validate really despicable behaviours among the well heeled and moneyed which would not be expected or accepted by anyone else.

I say decent, that kind of insight isnt new.
 

Lark

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I was referring to people in this thread last night except for Lark. I didn't see his post.

The point was that what was being described could be:

a) accidential, ie omitting to do things right when they have a choice,

or it could be

b) by design, ie class war, taking from the needy and giving to the greedy.
 

Virtual ghost

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I like how your country handles political donations better than the US. Like all reasonable individuals, I don't think elections should be preemptively paid for by an establishment that has profited off of them for decades. I'm not sure how long your multi party system is going to last. Yours is a very young country, and power tends to settle after a while. I wouldn't be surprised if your parties began to consolidate themselves. If one party in particular started gaining inertia and mass it would start sucking in similar parties. But who knows, maybe the measures you have in place will prevent corruption, but that's no easy feat. If there's a loophole to be found, it will be, and the more complicated the system is the more loopholes will come with that.




First of all my country isn't young, it is about 5.5 times older than US. In other words only the current set of legal paradigms is relatively new, but some of the active political parties in play go all the way back to 19th century (if not further in certain forms) Just if legal order got changed that doesn't necessarily mean that new parties are created. Also this can simply mean that some parties got "unbanned" and they can now operate freely once again. Or people from old parties simply made the new ones when the legal order got changed. But to understand this you must go outside of strict American way of thinking about politics. Actually every other democracy on the continent is multiparty democracy, therefore what I said is nothing that much out of the ordinary. Therefore the US is the one that is anomaly in the regard. Because your system is built to create air-tight establishment on the long run.



As a matter of fact our political spectrum is diversifying instead of homogenizing over the last few election cycles. However here there is no establishment in American sense because in order to rule parties need to form coalitions. What means that in one election cycle the ruling combination of parties is A,B,D,F,H, in the second is B,C,D,H,F , in the third is A,C,D,E,F ... etc. Therefore in every cycle you have different combination every time and this fluidity makes it impossible to solidify some kind of a air-tight establishment through legal politics. Sure, it is possible to game the system to some degree but no where near as much as in US. Where you can't punish one party without boosting the other one. While here you can phase parties out, when I was in high school one centrist party in my parliament was the largest one there. While today this same party has only 2 seats. Since various other parties took their seats and voters, because they weren't that good in governing. Plus our numerous changes of political/legal system also kinda made sure that solidified permanent establishment can't be created, since people are used to more fluid political landscape. Here throwing the constitution out of the window in nothing new, it is centuries old practice. What ironically can lead to making sure that the new constitution is always more up to date.


Plus we have snap elections that are major deal in all this. In other words if either political parties or people see and decide that current administration isn't really working we are going to snap elections. Which will change the combination of parties in the mix. Few year back one of our administrations went in flames this way only after a few months in the office. What is excellent since living with that train wreck for 4 years would be objective pain for the whole country. However this way this got changed and we got a decent new administration that did it's 4 years in full. I mean here election campaigns formally last about 6 weeks with a month or two of "foreplay ", therefore the whole thing isn't such drama in which everyone in the end loses both focus and sanity. Plus this is why we can have snap election, since the process is fast. I mean there are modern media and people in general know where each party stands on issues. Therefore there is no need to make super long pointless campaigns out of this, which is exactly why it matters that the constitution is up to date.


I mean this system will probably never be 100% flawless but it is relatively decent system that provides governing which can be trusted in general. Some places around the continent have sophisticated this even further but we are learning from them, this is basically exactly why we are diversifying lately. But if we are going to be honest I am much more skeptical about the media then politicians since that is perhaps the biggest potential problem in the whole mix.



But more to the point, I wasn't talking about systems at all, but people. And maybe we fundamentally disagree on this as well. I consider self interest a universal human principal- perhaps even the bedrock of reason itself. I don't think it is a bad thing, especially if it's understood that working together on things is often directly self interested as well. Doing the right thing on a moral level is self interested, as having a sense of honor and integrity is good not only for the psyche, but also the surrounding community, which again benefits the self that is living within it. It's easy to parse out seemingly selfless action without considering it in the wider more selfish context, but I think it's important (always) to be contextually thorough. When it comes to politics and more specifically politicians, we have taken a step away from average individuals operating in their own self interests, towards individuals operating in their own self interests who also want power over others. And this is the game they play. Gaining power over their political rivals is just practice for the ultimate role of having power over the populations of their respective jurisdictions, the means of which are always the same- lie to people about whatever they want to hear. Do you have any examples of politicians who haven't done this? Or more importantly, who haven't done this and succeeded anyway? I can't think of a worse type of person myself than someone who would be drawn to politics- especially the type of person that has deceived themselves, usually via a martyr messianic complex, that they are the "good guy," sent from above to bring peace and order to the galaxy.



I gave you plenty of examples of individuals that simply aren't the greedy politician from your talking points, therefore I was talking about in individuals as well. While for me you view of the politicians is simply too black and white (what is just black in your case). But I will go deeper into this and say that this is exactly why for me well socialized medicine is so important. Because that policy makes healthcare available no matter what is going in your life. What in the end means that you don't have landscape where each life indirectly has a label how much it actually costs. What then means that you are rising generations that don't see life in the bottom line strictly through costs, since they were never really programmed that in the most basic foundation life has a price. Plus this makes growing up much less stressful and therefore you have less mental illnesses all over the map and people are less in pathological hurry to get money at all cost (crime and fraud included). Since they were thought by experience that you can always get the chance to be physically fixed no matter what is going on (the same goes for the rest of your family, friends etc.). While what you are describing is typical colonialism and eventually post-colonialism, where life is something that is traded for money, perhaps even in the most concrete sense possible. What means that whole generations will be risen in the climate where you have to take your share and your spot with force. What in combination with your political system creates politicians as you see them, know them and define them. However this simply isn't set in stone. As I said a number of times your culture has a problem in telling the difference between freedom and being on your own. What are simply two different things once you scratch the surface a little bit better.
 

Lark

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I'm cynical about power and its probably why I'm interested in politics.

Its goes beyond politics though.

Its what interests me about psychology, sociology, economics, name it, pretty much.
 

anticlimatic

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I gave you plenty of examples of individuals that simply aren't the greedy politician from your talking points, therefore I was talking about in individuals as well.

I haven't heard a single name yet. Persuade me with empirical anecdotes, not theory.

Still waiting, still listening.
 

Jonny

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This is factually false.
In the case you said "American politicians" I would perhaps agree, but if you put it this way the claim simply doesn't stand. Especially in countries with developed multiparty democracies where genuine political forces have much easier time becoming politically relevant. Actually "They are all the same" is one of the main punchlines for distimulating the vote and making sure that only partisan people vote. However politics simply isn't fundamentally "dirty sport", it can be but that is not set in stone.

Yeah, it’s an impotent attempt to defend this awful POTUS by pretending they’re all like him but just don’t show it.
 

Virtual ghost

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I haven't heard a single name yet. Persuade me with empirical anecdotes, not theory.

Still waiting, still listening.



But why I would create another wall of text and do complex research in trying to find links/proofs on English if I once again will get one liner from you ? (if such links even exist, as I already mentioned). Especially since it is obvious that you aren't really going to listen, since that can be seen directly in your attitude (now and in general). I told you a number of times that I don't have to worry about medical bills in my life and why is that, what is both anecdote and practice, not theory. Already my grand grandmother had a benefit of this system and there is nothing theoretical about it. However I have this because my entire political system agrees with that premise instead that they sell me to big pharma and insurance companies. Therefore the local debate is more on the level of should we nudge the system it in this way or that way, but no one is fundamentally against it (and you have the same story all over the continent). Therefore your starting claim simply isn't fundamentally correct and that is the only thing I ever claimed. I guess I can post some pictures and names for the people that I have already numbered as well as what they have done. But I don't see the point since you passed over that as it is nothing.
 
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