[ eye emoji ] [MENTION=37565]Exolvuntur[/MENTION], I wonder why you are asking this question?
Because I wonder if I am capable of loving people, I just haven't been aware of it because I dismiss my emotions too much. I always kinda scoffed at the idea that it was a real emotion, but then I also kinda got envious of how happy other people seemed when in love. Love gives purpose, and I want purpose. If I can love for real, I can have a real purpose. Also sometimes people make me feel things, and I don't know what those things are. Which is why I am trying to learn.
Love is less an emotion, I think. But it's also something you can't ignore. Something like liking chocolate. You don't pay attention or ignore necessarily, but it does not change that you love chocolate. To me 'love' happens as good favour, appreciation, respect, all rolled up into one. The emotion of 'love' is just the part that gives the relationship its 'magnetism', that part in the relationship where things are a roller coaster and the like (I would note I am a commonly certified dead, dead, dead sx-last so take this depiction of love with a huge grain of salt. It's how it happens to me personally, I can't speak for others).
Personally, I think it's less the Etype and more the instinctual variant. I notice that in most of my relationships (romantic or not), our love gets shared and shown best when we share the same IV, despite having different Enneagram cores. I think a lot of what gets idealized as love on-screen, in songs and such media tends to be very sx in my opinion- and I do not relate to that.
If I do love someone, however, I will notice in that I will extend my resources (sp) to them, and include them in my activities and social circles (soc). It has nothing to do with me being Enneagram 5, except maybe what kind of resources I share (knowledge or intellectual competency, for example). When I begin giving away (or considering giving away) those, I will know I am positively favouring that person.
Ah yes, that makes sense. I didn't think to look at IV. I am still not sure what mine are either, but this thread makes me look very sx... lol
Hmmm, this is a lot to think about. Thanks for replying.
If I correctly recall, 5 sx dom are quite idealistic and romantic about love. Very focused on *the one*.
This is from Beatrice Chestnut's book "The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge"
Sexual Fives
In the Sexual Five, avarice is expressed through an ongoing search for a connection that will satisfy their need for an experience of the most perfect, safest, and most satisfying (idealized) union. This Five may look like the other two five subtypes on the outside, having all the regular five inhibitions and introversion in the area of relationship, but the sexual five places a special value on one-to-one or intimate connections.
This five has a passion for finding a special person they can connect with deeply, sometimes a person they cannot find or have yet to find. Like the social five, this five also searches for a high ideal, but this five looks for the ideal in the realm of love. This five feels a need to find a high exemplar of absolute love. Like the search for the extraordinary of the social five, the ideal kind of connection this five searches for represents a very high standard. Sexual fives seek something like the ultimate mystical union- an experience of the divine in human relationships. And this can also happen with the search for good friends or a spiritual teacher.
While social and self-preservation fives are more removed from their emotions, the sexual five is intense, romantic, and more emotionally sensitive. This five suffers more, resembles the four more, and has more overt desires. This is the countertype among the fives. It may not be completely obvious from the outside, however- they may seem very much like other fives until you touch their romantic spot and inspire their romantic feelings. While they can appear reserved or laconic on the outside, sexual fives have a vibrant internal life that is highly romantic. There are examples of sexual five artists- like Chopin, who Naranjo notes is the most romantic of the classical composers- who display extreme emotional expressiveness through their artistic creations but are cut off in many ways from others in the everyday world.
Sexual fives live in an inner world filled with ideation, theories, and utopian fantasies about finding unconditional love. They live for a couple's love as a kind of ultimate or ideal experience of connection. However, what they search for represents an idealized form of relationship that may not exist in the human world.
Trust is the basic issue with the sexual five. The name Naranjo ascribes to this subtype is “confidence,†which has a special meaning related to an ability to trust the other, and suggests a search for the person who will be with you no matter what, the partner (or friend) that you can trust with all your secrets. Confidence is the kind of ideal that makes sexual fives very romantic deep inside. They search for an idealized version of love and relationship as a source of meaning in life.
The sexual five's search for a high exemplar of connection is so exacting that it's very hard to pass their test with consistency if you are the person in relationship with them. It's very easy for the sexual five to be disappointed. This subtype has such a great need to trust in the other that the need is not easily satisfied, and so there can be a lot of testing in their relationships.
Fives tend to be a private people, but this five has a great need for intimacy under the right circumstances- if they can find a person they can really trust to love them despite their flaws. This subtype expresses a need to be completely transparent with their partner, and they need their partner to be very open as well- and this ideal of trust and intimacy is not easy to find. Because of this, sexual fives can get very picky about the people they have relationships with, and they can become frustrated when they discover that the other is human. If a partner does not live up to their expectations of transparency and openness, they tend to feel disappointed and- because they have a fear of being hurt by others- to isolate themselves.
Some sexual fives say that their search for an ultimate kind of connection does not only center on relationship with a lover or life partner. One five said he related to the idea of “emotional promiscuity,†saying, “I want ultimate contact with a lot of people,†one at a time. And some fives with this subtype report that although they feel guarded in the face of too much emotional intensity, they have a deep desire for intimacy with a trusted few. One five with this subtype described especially appreciating the experience of “clicking†with someone- the feeling of having chemistry with another person- saying that when he felt this he could become infatuated very quickly.
Although the sexual five may look like a type four, this five is still quit five-ish, so is not likely to be mistaken for a four. And while this subtype is the five countertype and seeks to manifest an ideal of intimacy, it may be hard to discern the difference between this five and the other two fives, as all of the five subtypes experience a need to withdraw. However, this five has a need to find a special relationship that will provide both safety and an ultimate kind of love.
Here it is (I am not sure that I like Chestnut's descriptions overall, just as a side note, so I'm interested to see how 5s relate to this):
Here it is (I am not sure that I like Chestnut's descriptions overall, just as a side note, so I'm interested to see how 5s relate to this):
Here it is (I am not sure that I like Chestnut's descriptions overall, just as a side note, so I'm interested to see how 5s relate to this):
Whether I’m a sx 5 or not, this fits me perfectly. Also on the need for intense relationships in general, what’s the point of establishing any kind of relationship if you don’t feel that spark of connection and interest? That feeling that you’ve discovered someone in this vast and often insane universe that understands you and your position in it on some level, whether they’re a friend or more. Quality over quantity indeed.
Sexual Fours
In the Sexual Four subtype, the inner motivation is envy, and its manifestation as competition. These Fours don't feel consciously envious so much as they feel competitive as a way of muting the pain associated with envy. If they can compete against another person they perceive as having more than they do and win, they can feel better about themselves.
Sexual Fours believe it's good to be the best. Most people want to present a good image to others, but Sexual Fours don't care very much about image management or being liked. For them, it's better to be superior. They are highly competitive, and their intense focus on competition takes the form of actively striving to show that they are the best.
People with this subtype tend to have an “all or nothing†belief related to success: if success is not all theirs, they are left with nothing. This pattern leads to excesses related to their efforts to achieve success, and it also generates feelings of hate.
Sexual Fours are usually arrogant, despite having an underlying sense of inferiority. In the face of the pain of feeling misunderstood, an arrogant attitude is adopted as overcompensation- a means of being recognized. These Fours like being part of “chosen†group, and they can be very elitist. They may refuse to feel indebted to anyone, and they may have the sense that they have the exclusive right to feel offended by the lack of consideration of others. Any criticism or reproach is seen as an affront or disqualification.
Envious anger dominates the expression of this subtype's unconscious instinctual impulses. Sexual Fours' deeper instinctual motivation is about a refusal to suffer the pain brought about by envy, and a need to reduce suffering by projecting the responsibility for meeting their needs onto others and minimizing others' accomplishments in comparison with their own.
Sexual Fours “make others suffer†because they feel that they have been made to suffer and so need some sort of compensation. They may seek to hurt or punish others as an unconscious way of repudiating or minimizing their own pain. Naranjo observes that this tendency of this Four can be summed up by the phrase, “Hurt people hurt people.†Externalizing pain helps them ease their inner sense of inferiority. Their relationship to suffering can thus best be understood as a refusal to suffer. This gets expressed as an active insistence on their needs being validated and met. (They want with anger.) More shameless than shameful, Sexual Fours are vocal about expressing their needs; they rebel against any shame connected to their desires. This subtype follows the life philosophy that “the squeaky wheel gets the grease.â€
When others experience Sexual Fours as demanding, this can lead to a pattern of rejection and anger: Sexual Fours get mad when others don't meet their needs, but their demanding nature causes people to avoid or reject them, and then they get angry about being rejected. This type can thus get trapped in a vicious cycle when rejection leads to protest and protest leads to rejection.
The Sexual Four is more assertive and angrier than the other subtypes. Naranjo refers to this Four as the “mad Four†as opposed to the “sad†(Social) Four. These Fours can be very outspoken with their anger because expression of anger is their way of defending against painful feelings. When they unconsciously turn their pain into anger, they don't have to feel their pain anymore.
These Fours may even seek to hurt or punish others as a way of repudiating or minimizing their underlying pain. They feel justified in pointing to others as the source of their deprivation or frustration, which serves as both a distraction from their own role in their suffering and a plea for help and understanding.
Naranjo says that this Four subtype can be the angriest personality among the Enneagram types. They may express envious anger as a way to establish or assert power when they feel inferior at a deeper level, which can be a way to manipulate situations to their advantage. (This kind of anger was the impulse between the French revolution: “I envy the rich, so I'll organize a revolution.â€) And Sexual Fours can be very impulsive. They want things immediately and have little tolerance for frustration.
Naranjo calls this type “Competition,†and Ichazo called it “Hate.†While this type can be both hateful and competitive, it is important to remember that the competition and hate expressed by this Four represents a deeper need to project their sense of suffering and inadequacy outward. The painful sense of envy felt by the Sexual Four can motivate a wishing with anger, or a sense of “Ive got to get what I need, both to convince myself that my needs aren't shameful, and to feel better about myself with respect to others.†Their competitiveness and anger is a compensation for and a defense against the hurt they feel underneath.
These Fours like and need emotional intensity. Without intensity, everything can seem unbearably dull and boring. When Sexual Fours want somebody's love, they can be very direct about asking for what they need, or can become “extraordinaryâ€- make themselves seem special and attractive and superior- in an effort to attract it. In line with their natural intensity (fueled by both their heart-based emotional temperament and their sexual instinct), these individuals tend to be more present and available in relationships because they don't deny or avoid many of the factors that can inhibit others relationally, like anger, neediness, competitiveness, arrogance, and having to be liked all the time. However, at times it may prove difficult for them to maintain a loving attitude because they confuse sweetness and benevolence with being false or insincere.
Sexual Fours are most likely to be confused with Type Eights or Sexual Twos. Like Eights, they have easier access to anger than most types, but they differ from Eights in the wider range of emotions they regularly feel. Naranjo points out that Eights often don't need to get angry, whereas this Four frequently feels misunderstood or envious, so they may show anger more often. They can also look like Sexual “Aggressive-Seductive†Twos (because both types can be aggressive and seductive in relationships) but the Sexual Two is more oriented toward pleasing others.
Yeah that’s definitely not me. I can get angry with the best of them, but I don’t relate to the competitiveness or the constant arrogant disregard for other’s feelings. I also don’t justify causing suffering in others because I’ve suffered. I related to every aspect of the sx 5 description, however.Yeah, compare the 5 description to this:
Makes me feel quite 5-ish.
Yeah that’s definitely not me. I can get angry with the best of them, but I don’t relate to the competitiveness or the constant arrogant disregard for other’s feelings. I also don’t justify causing suffering in others because I’ve suffered. I related to every aspect of the sx 5 description, however.
I started reading through this and while I relate to some aspects of envy, "winning" and or "feeling superior" to them isn't as much of a priority - though I have a 4-wing so it migh to be an influencing factor. I was a little more envious when younger, but over the years that has been replaced with a core need for deep interpersonal connections based around sharing common interests and mainly intellectual pursuits. I am more likely to feel an intense connection with someone I have had a debate with rather than someone I went out on a date with. There are times when I do want others to suffer, but I default to suppressing that as much as is possible because it's a negative set of emotions that are heavily repressed. 5's are quite strongly directed towards suppressing most emotions. Sx 5's are imo more likely to want positive emotion and as we age we become increasingly dynamic in engaging with our positive emotions as well as wanting them in others.
When I argue something to death, for me, it's about accuracy in whatever my interest or opinion tends to be at that moment. I could have a perspective that's very wrong and if someone else can present me with facts to budge me from that position, I will change my mind fairly easily because it's more likely that I missed something in determining my position. I don't see it as a loss. I don't see the other person as being better than me, just someone who had a more fleshed out perspective that I can draw from and make my own more fleshed out. If it changes my mind, so be it. It just adds more content to what I already know.
If I already know a lot about something and I'm faced with the prospect of becoming a teacher that has to unpack a lot of information for them I tend to default to "I don't have the time or energy for this" and just disengage entirely. Eventually if that person shows growth that I can see from a distance, I will engage with them on that topic and see if I can help them grow in their knowledge as well. Being So second, I tend to create small social groups based on deep "primary" connections with a very carefully selected group of individuals that I seek to put together in a space where they can share and spend time with each other.
How do you know when you are in love? I read 5s feel things more in hindsight, but love is something that is suppose to be a driving force? What is love like for you?
I certainly don't. To me, love seems meaningless in the context of inanimate objects.Do you love an object? Like a car, or character in a game or a computer's keyboard, for example.