I want no bias here...

[SearchingforPeace]

Hey

The why is about logical meaning.

I do know Fe-doms who do that asking "why" a lot. And I tell them. Though it's usually like, they say 1000 sentences and I say one sentence in return that sums up and answers it all, lol. I don't usually ask people myself, I sort things out in my head but here I need to get data off other people so I need to ask. Asking that many questions does get tiring as it's not my default mode.

I don't really "want" to be anything. That's a silly thought really, one that I never understood, why would people want to be something if the facts don't support it.

Fe is the search for logical accurate meaning. Fe works with Ti here. Ti doms and auxs seem to focus on the accuracy side most. Fe doms and auxs focus on the meaning side most.

I keep feeling you want more meaning, but reject the label of "feeling". I get that desire to be logical.

I don't usually ask others questions, I give them answers, because I have understood things do fast, including implications that others might take months or years to see

I still see the same functions in you, the STP NFJ family..

 

[existence]

Thanks
It's a labor of love.
If you take the test there, I can offer back end insights too.

I took the test now Enneagram 3 and ISTJ

I saw the descriptions for these two as somewhat overlapping (as presented on your site). Hmm.

"Ni+Te" isn't a type in MBTI. I am INTJ which has tendencies toward certain functions. But I am free to evaluate those functions separately to see what fits me. MBTI (the letters stand for Myers-Briggs Type Indicator®) is a test that evaluates based on the 4 continuums. Using this system I am INTJ (and not borderline on any of them).

So you mean you type strictly by dichotomies, ok, that makes sense. Any reason why you ignored the 8 functions in MBTI?

Preferring absolute principles is fine, but you can't impose your preferences on a system that someone else developed. I don't think Jung, Myers, or Briggs would say these are absolute principles.

Well anyway I like deeper explanations.

[MENTION=26684]existence[/MENTION], do you see that people are reacting to some of your patterns of engagement?

I see you asking a lot of questions, especially "why" questions ... why do you think that? why do you say that? etc.
I also see you spending more time on what you don't agree with (in descriptions not posts) than what you do.
I see you coming to conclusions (my interpretation, I know) but not then building from them to move forward.
I also see you circling back to rethink something because it wasn't quite right.

For the third observation: not all conclusions are final yet, so yeah.

Do you see these too?
Do you also see the reactions you are getting to these (my presumption, yes)?

I see people wondering if these are honest questions or just ways to keep the thread going.
I see people repeating points because they don't think you've taken them in.

You and others may see other reactions too.

I see that and I think it's a matter of misunderstanding. Dunno why.

My point is just to say that you may get more of what you want if you keep these reactions in mind, share more of your own thinking and conclusions (I've seen you post elsewhere with insights), be clear about what you are asking for, and acknowledge others when they give it to you.

And then please enjoy analyzing. It's a good way to learn.

I thought I acknowledged people enough..? Maybe not, then. :|

I don't really like to share my thoughts when the conclusions aren't final yet. Whenever I think it's got a point to share it I do it. But if someone really wants to know something, I'll try to answer.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I see the main principles, the logical links establishing structure, determining the degree of relevancy for everything, all of it allowing me to make judgments very easily and quickly."

Ok. I understand that. The entire quote reads a bit Te-like.

Ok. So I would describe Ti as neutral. Systems are changing. Ti (in terms of myself) I think is free flowing. I don't think about it in terms of making judgements like the end of the statement says - but more so using information. May be the same end result but emphasis is different, initially. Information is no more valuable than another piece unless presented with the problem being solved. Then one piece might be more valuable - at that time. Think of a corner piece of a puzzle vs a center piece. Is one more valuable? No. One is more useful given where you need to put it. So the degree of relevancy may mean that. If so, yes. I understand that. Relevant to the issue at hand but I don't think of information outside of an issue at hand as relevant or not. It is not judged for relevance then stored but stores for reference . I hope that makes sense?

Ti is a storehouse. Or my previous analogy, the frame of a house. I like this analogy a lot. The wood used to frame is facts and raw data. How you build and what you choose to build with changes. It is a project that NEVER finishes. You are always adding on to this "house" tearing parts down, rebuilding with better materials, etc.

I gotta run but this was just touching base with this. I'll be back with more.

 

[existence]

I am pretty sure you are describing Ti/Se in sync. (in your descriptions of yourself) Maybe more Se/Ti in you...Are you more extraverted or introverted?

Thanks for the input Introverted, though not too strongly.

As for this: "can see how things work together, I see the main principles, the logical links establishing structure, determining the degree of relevancy for everything, all of it allowing me to make judgments very easily and quickly."

This might be a mix of Ti and Te characteristics? Seeing the logical links is Ti, determining the degree of relevancy for everything is Te. The glue holding stuff together is more Ti, whereas Te is the application or interpretation of that.

Hmm, the determining of relevancy comes from seeing the logical links as that's how I see how things logically follow and what's relevant to a situation. And yes I really feel at my best when I can apply what I understand. But I know I'm nothing like Te-doms... I can sometimes admire how they don't need to first process things for themselves before they go and use the facts. It has its advantages sometimes. However my way of thinking also has its advantages, I run circles around Te-doms when they run into something where a deeper logical framework gives you an advantage.

Personally, I cannot tell if I Ti more or Te more. I know I Fe very well, but it might be a well-developed coping mechanism to subvert my Fi.

My sister said her main memory of me as a child was that I was, "Always analyzing everything"

Yeah maybe I cannot tell either, lol. Out of curiosity, you type as an I in MBTI because of social introversion but as an extratim (EIE) in Socionics because Fe seems to feed the Ni and not the other way around?

Fe is the search for logical accurate meaning. Fe works with Ti here. Ti doms and auxs seem to focus on the accuracy side most. Fe doms and auxs focus on the meaning side most.

I keep feeling you want more meaning, but reject the label of "feeling". I get that desire to be logical.

I don't usually ask others questions, I give them answers, because I have understood things do fast, including implications that others might take months or years to see

I still see the same functions in you, the STP NFJ family..

Tbh I don't fully understand how Ti and Fe complement each other, that's interesting...

I do want some sort of meaning in general, sure, but I'm vague on that what would be exactly.

I don't "desire" to be "logical". I am what I am. People who know me online/IRL always note that I'm very logical and whenever they mention that, I feel like something must be wrong with me for not feeling as much as some people do. It's weird how I get to feel so self conscious at those comments.

The Fe-doms I know don't always ask either, they either ask a loooot, or they just ramble on a lot but they are implicitly asking for the logic, lol.

I'm sure your Ni is very smart in seeing intuitive implications

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Ok. I understand that. The entire quote reads a bit Te-like.

Ok. So I would describe Ti as neutral. Systems are changing. Ti (in terms of myself) I think is free flowing. I don't think about it in terms of making judgements like the end of the statement says - but more so using information. May be the same end result but emphasis is different, initially. Information is no more valuable than another piece unless presented with the problem being solved. Then one piece might be more valuable - at that time. Think of a corner piece of a puzzle vs a center piece. Is one more valuable? No. One is more useful given where you need to put it. So the degree of relevancy may mean that. If so, yes. I understand that. Relevant to the issue at hand but I don't think of information outside of an issue at hand as relevant or not. It is not judged. I hope that makes sense?

Ti is a storehouse. Or my previous analogy, the frame of a house. I like this analogy a lot. The wood used to frame is facts and raw data. How you build and what you choose to build with changes. It is a project that NEVER finishes. You are always adding on to this "house" tearing parts down, rebuilding with better materials, etc.

I gotta run but this was just touching base with this. I'll be back with more.

I feel like Te is the framework. And Ti is the fleshing out. I understand that analogy well because I identify with it more than any other construct.

Thanks for the input Introverted, though not too strongly.

I can see your Se being righteous, so if you are slightly introverted, it gives me a pretty good idea of just how hard those cogs are a workin', since that means your Ti/Se. I know you say your are istj, so I'm not sure how to reconcile that. I guess I do not know you well enough.

Hmm, the determining of relevancy comes from seeing the logical links as that's how I see how things logically follow and what's relevant to a situation. And yes I really feel at my best when I can apply what I understand. But I know I'm nothing like Te-doms... I can sometimes admire how they don't need to first process things for themselves before they go and use the facts. It has its advantages sometimes. However my way of thinking also has its advantages, I run circles around Te-doms when they run into something where a deeper logical framework gives you an advantage.

I tend to think (perhaps inaccurately?) that being able to guesstimate well is a Te trait. Also, I see 2 of my boys who use Te seem to absorb a lot more outside data than I do or am interested in, then they use it when necessary. But my cozy spot is inside. I peep out into the world like a little mouse (when I know it is safe) and run for a crumb or morsel I need as quickly and efficiently as I can, then I run back into my hidey hole and relax and ponder all that I have gathered. But I only gather things in very small quantities, as I am led either by my intuition, God, or a problem. I think I am really Ni/Ti/Si preferably (i hate Fi lol). But I use Fe/Te to function in this world as necessary. I do know that an ISTP I know and I would CLASH hard on our T-ness. We had completely different logic at play, and I don't think it can all be attributed to Te/Ti issues. I think it was largely due to my Ti combining with Ni, Si, or Fe; and his combining with Se.

Ti is an attractive function, that is for sure.

Yeah maybe I cannot tell either, lol. Out of curiosity, you type as an I in MBTI because of social introversion but as an extratim (EIE) in Socionics because Fe seems to feed the Ni and not the other way around?

I don't know socionics and don't really care to learn.

 

[existence]

Ok. I understand that. The entire quote reads a bit Te-like.

Ok. So I would describe Ti as neutral. Systems are changing. Ti (in terms of myself) I think is free flowing. I don't think about it in terms of making judgements like the end of the statement says - but more so using information. May be the same end result but emphasis is different, initially. Information is no more valuable than another piece unless presented with the problem being solved. Then one piece might be more valuable - at that time. Think of a corner piece of a puzzle vs a center piece. Is one more valuable? No. One is more useful given where you need to put it. So the degree of relevancy may mean that. If so, yes. I understand that. Relevant to the issue at hand but I don't think of information outside of an issue at hand as relevant or not. It is not judged. I hope that makes sense?

Ti is a storehouse. Or my previous analogy, the frame of a house. I like this analogy a lot. The wood used to frame is facts and raw data. How you build and what you choose to build with changes. It is a project that NEVER finishes. You are always adding on to this "house" tearing parts down, rebuilding with better materials, etc.

I gotta run but this was just touching base with this. I'll be back with more.

Yes this makes sense, thanks. I relate to the house analogy, I do improve my understanding further over time. The raw data may be reinterpreted though this does not constantly happen for me. When it happens it's like I jumped a level up, transcending the previous understanding into a much better framework. Until then I just add pieces to it and just keep seeing how it adds up together. Do you relate to that?

When something complex is entirely new to me, this takes time. There is a lot of concrete data that's to be experienced to pull thoughts, realizations, principles out of them and build some understanding over time. I become more flexible as my understanding improves and transcends to new levels. I become more able to apply it so flexibly that others can't even follow where I'm going. I may look entirely unpredictable in my actions at that point

But yes at the core there is still those logical links to me. And those don't actually change while I'm flexibly applying all of it. What I would say is changing is the situations I apply my understanding to. Your house frame does not have such an internal structure?

As for the part where you say all pieces are equal - that's true in a sense and not in another sense. It's true in the sense that it may be relevant to the situation or not, like you say. But overall I prefer to have some hierarchy, main ideas that can sum up it all and from which other things follow. What you called the center piece, that to me is such a core idea. You don't relate to that?

When you say the information is not judged... can we leave the MBTI context here too please. Can you rephrase "judged" in some other way that has nothing to do with MBTI?

 

[Poki]

Yeah your first sentence, I agree, I feel like a cross of those So ok, you say you categorize them as ISTJ... As far as I understand, ISTJ absorbs everything via sensory details and they have a hard time stepping out of that and they prefer the same stable sensations all the time so they don't like crisis situations where you have to immediately respond without remembering anything from the past. In comparison to that, I don't remember words or notation if they are not logical to me in a way I find logical myself, regardless of what others think and I'm fine in crisis situations because I like immediately responding to what's directly visible. I don't recall the past consciously. And I don't focus on order in the world purely for comfort's sake in such an excessive way SJs seem to care about it. That to me seems pointless, ordering the world just for comfort's sake. I don't care that much about comfort tbh. But, I do have good awareness of how things usually are in the world, otherwise, and I'm able to adapt to the existing order except when it gets too much in my way.. I love to hack the system in those cases because I want to feel in control instead of submitting to someone else's ideas on how things should be.



I know the thing about being offended was more Fe than Ti. It's a recent development for me, deciding that it won't hurt to express feelings sometimes with the goal of being on the same page with others.

I don't really get why you think what you said here about the forums is blunt or harsh. I'm not even really following the idea there.


So anyway, are you not able to say how well you relate to that quote of mine? ("I have a similar feeling also when I've got through a real thorough detail oriented analysis of details and experiences and as a consequence can see how things work together, I see the main principles, the logical links establishing structure, determining the degree of relevancy for everything, all of it allowing me to make judgments very easily and quickly.")

I'd really like a response from you for that, it's fine if all you can say is that you don't know. Thanks.

I doesn't take much thorough detailed analysis. It doesn't take much at all for me to see how things work and relevance. I have been doing it my whole life. It's second nature and why I am in the position I am in as technical leader at work.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Tbh I don't fully understand how Ti and Fe complement each other, that's interesting...

I do want some sort of meaning in general, sure, but I'm vague on that what would be exactly.

I don't "desire" to be "logical". I am what I am. People who know me online/IRL always note that I'm very logical and whenever they mention that, I feel like something must be wrong with me for not feeling as much as some people do. It's weird how I get to feel so self conscious at those comments.

The Fe-doms I know don't always ask either, they either ask a loooot, or they just ramble on a lot but they are implicitly asking for the logic, lol.

I'm sure your Ni is very smart in seeing intuitive implications

Ni sees things, but Ti judges the accuracy and Fe gives meaning.

For example, I worked for about a year on a project with a bunch other really smart people. I guess I was the only NFJ, but others were a mixture of types. I saw the implications of the subject almost immediately and was promoted over people who had been working on it for a year longer. The project manager said she couldn't trust anyone else. Now, these were all bright folks with graduate degrees.

About six months into the project, one guy finally got an idea of what the big picture was. And I found out he was typical. I was shocked because I talked with all of them socially and found them all to be intelligent folks.

The point is, I saw structure (Ni) very quickly and the meaning (Fe). For me, being FeNi means I feel comfortable with 90% accuracy and move quickly. For most of life, 90% is great. Doctors usually prescribed based upon 10% certainty. Now, for things that require exactness, that takes more effort cognitively, but few things really need exactness.....

As such, I make lightning fast decisions that are usually right, well before other really smart people are even off step 1. They might get to 100% accuracy eventually, but they are slow to do so. Usually we can find solve what we need of there is an error well before they would get to 100%.

 

[existence]

I feel like Te is the framework. And Ti is the fleshing out. I understand that analogy well because I identify with it more than any other construct.

Hmmmm, "framework" is such a generic word though.

I can see your Se being righteous, so if you are slightly introverted, it gives me a pretty good idea of just how hard those cogs are a workin', since that means your Ti/Se. I know you say your are istj, so I'm not sure how to reconcile that. I guess I do not know you well enough.

No, no, I'm not saying I'm ISTJ, that's just what I get on some dichotomy tests. On some I get ISTP.

I tend to think (perhaps inaccurately?) that being able to guesstimate well is a Te trait.

Maybe but the situations I was talking about don't really let you get away with just guesstimating. Unless you're up for a LOT of time wasting trial and error, lol

Also, I see 2 of my boys who use Te seem to absorb a lot more outside data than I do or am interested in, then they use it when necessary.

Yah that seems cool about Te-doms, I don't do it as fast as that, I don't easily take up facts on the surface, I have to make sense of it for myself first.

I do know that an ISTP I know and I would CLASH hard on our T-ness. We had completely different logic at play, and I don't think it can all be attributed to Te/Ti issues. I think it was largely due to my Ti combining with Ni, Si, or Fe; and his combining with Se.

Curious, do you have some example of how that clashing would play out with the ISTP?

Ti is an attractive function, that is for sure.

 

[existence]

I doesn't take much thorough detailed analysis. It doesn't take much at all for me to see how things work and relevance. I have been doing it my whole life. It's second nature and why I am in the position I am in as technical leader at work.

That part applies to complex topics with a lot of stuff. How about the rest of the statement?

Also, what I described leads me to the ability to see how to manipulate the situation or a system in a way that other people don't seem to be able to do it. Including those Te-doms with their sucky trial and error approach haha

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Hmmmm, "framework" is such a generic word though.




No, no, I'm not saying I'm ISTJ, that's just what I get on some dichotomy tests. On some I get ISTP.




Maybe but the situations I was talking about don't really let you get away with just guesstimating. Unless you're up for a LOT of time wasting trial and error, lol




Yah that seems cool about Te-doms, I don't do it as fast as that, I don't easily take up facts on the surface, I have to make sense of it for myself first.




Curious, do you have some example of how that clashing would play out with the ISTP?

With the istp i would arrive at an obvious (to me) conclusion and he wouldn't have a clue. Usually I could attribute this to Te vs Ti I think. And he always felt like his conclusion was the best one (and it wasn't), and would often get frustrated with my logic, acting like I could not make decisions as well as he could. It just always seemed to be this clash between what we each felt the best way to do something was, and even though I used my own way or form of logic, I was rarely validated in that. I don't honestly know if it was Ti or Te clashes. I always assumed Te/Ti because I thought I was only using Te. But now I think I use more Ti than I realize.

 

[existence]

Ni sees things, but Ti judges the accuracy and Fe gives meaning.

Give me such an example of Fe meaning, please so I can see what you mean

For example, I worked for about a year on a project with a bunch other really smart people. I guess I was the only NFJ, but others were a mixture of types. I saw the implications of the subject almost immediately and was promoted over people who had been working on it for a year longer. The project manager said she couldn't trust anyone else. Now, these were all bright folks with graduate degrees.

About six months into the project, one guy finally got an idea of what the big picture was. And I found out he was typical. I was shocked because I talked with all of them socially and found them all to be intelligent folks.

The point is, I saw structure (Ni) very quickly and the meaning (Fe). For me, being FeNi means I feel comfortable with 90% accuracy and move quickly. For most of life, 90% is great. Doctors usually prescribed based upon 10% certainty. Now, for things that require exactness, that takes more effort cognitively, but few things really need exactness.....

As such, I make lightning fast decisions that are usually right, well before other really smart people are even off step 1. They might get to 100% accuracy eventually, but they are slow to do so. Usually we can find solve what we need of there is an error well before they would get to 100%.

Interesting. We seem quite the opposites here as I'm much more exacting. Otoh, if I need to find a quick way to hack a system, I will do that too. Though I still have my exacting thought process during that lol

I'm sure that if you had tried to explain the implications to me, I would have understood. I usually understand pretty fast what ENFJs try to tell me in terms of that. It's stuff I don't think of on my own but I have no problem understanding it.

 

[existence]

With the istp i would arrive at an obvious (to me) conclusion and he wouldn't have a clue. Usually I could attribute this to Te vs Ti I think. And he always felt like his conclusion was the best one (and it wasn't), and would often get frustrated with my logic, acting like I could not make decisions as well as he could. It just always seemed to be this clash between what we each felt the best way to do something was, and even though I used my own way or form of logic, I was rarely validated in that. I don't honestly know if it was Ti or Te clashes. I always assumed Te/Ti because I thought I was only using Te. But now I think I use more Ti than I realize.

OK but do you have an actual example, an anecdote, something? So I can see what you're talking about beyond this general pattern.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

OK but do you have an actual example, an anecdote, something? So I can see what you're talking about beyond this general pattern.

Hmm. Parking. His parking drove me crazy. He drove around waaayyy too much looking for a good spot, when I usually had one spotted immediately. His inefficiency drove me crazy. He'd drive back and forth several times to town for a part he forgot to fix something, when if he had just sat down and thought it through, he would have been able to get everything on his first trip, and not waste so much time. Basically he was just inefficient, but when I would try to help him or call his attention to a better way, he would scoff or mock me as if there was no way I'd know better than him.

I guess these are Te/Ti issues. Ti clashes might have come in the form of what things meant to us. I might have a certain idea of how a relationship best looked (my own Ti ) and he would have his idea of how it looked, and it rarely jived. I think because I was using Ni and he was using Se.

 

[existence]

Hmm. Parking. His parking drove me crazy. He drove around waaayyy too much looking for a good spot, when I usually had one spotted immediately. His inefficiency drove me crazy. He'd drive back and forth several times to town for a part he forgot to fix something, when if he had just sat down and thought it through, he would have been able to get everything on his first trip, and not waste so much time. Basically he was just inefficient, but when I would try to help him or call his attention to a better way, he would scoff or mock me as if there was no way I'd know better than him.

I guess these are Te/Ti issues. Ti clashes might have come in the form of what things meant to us. I might have a certain idea of how a relationship best looked (my own Ti ) and he would have his idea of how it looked, and it rarely jived. I think because I was using Ni and he was using Se.

Oh um, I don't relate to that stuff. I spot good places quickly. And, I don't think that much ahead either, just don't have the patience for that (unless I decide I really need it), but I would make sure I don't have to run around so much to get all the things I need. If I have to go and get to several places, I prefer to arrange it all nicely inside the trip, optimizing the trip. Time is more valuable to me than doing just waddling around leisurely all day. I'm not very leisurely in this sense. I don't necessarily see your issue here as Te though, it could be Ni too.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Oh um, I don't relate to that stuff. I spot good places quickly. And, I don't think that much ahead either, just don't have the patience for that (unless I decide I really need it), but I would make sure I don't have to run around so much to get all the things I need. If I have to go and get to several places, I prefer to arrange it all nicely inside the trip, optimizing the trip. Time is more valuable to me than doing just waddling around leisurely all day. I'm not very leisurely in this sense. I don't necessarily see your issue here as Te though, it could be Ni too.

Then you sound like Je.

It isn't Ni though. Ni is hazy, dazy, happy with just the truth, no matter how convoluted or inefficient it might be. Efficiency and organization are hallmarks of Te.

 

[existence]

Then you sound like Je.

It isn't Ni though. Ni is hazy, dazy, happy with just the truth, no matter how convoluted or inefficient it might be. Efficiency and organization are hallmarks of Te.

So your ISTP is happy with just leisurely looking around at stuff while wasting the day by making extra trips?

Efficiency isn't the first thing in everything I look at, it's more like a side effect. I prioritize other things over efficiency. But I don't like to waste time and energy on whatever I don't want to spend that time and energy on.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

So your ISTP is happy with just leisurely looking around at stuff while wasting the day by making extra trips?

Efficiency isn't the first thing in everything I look at, it's more like a side effect. I prioritize other things over efficiency. But I don't like to waste time and energy on whatever I don't want to spend that time and energy on.

No forward thinking. All Ti/Se in the moment stuff. It was nothing for him to drive back and forth many times due to lack of planning.

I can plan very well. So I think I use Te but maybe more as it serves Fe.....I think Ti is in there somehow....hence the analytical side of myself.

 

[existence]

No forward thinking. All Ti/Se in the moment stuff. It was nothing for him to drive back and forth many times due to lack of planning.

I can plan very well. So I think I use Te but maybe more as it serves Fe.....I think Ti is in there somehow....hence the analytical side of myself.

As I said I don't have much forward thinking either but definitely more than this. I really don't think that this is purely the realm of Te, Ni has to do with it too, you've just said he doesn't do the planning because he lives too much in the moment.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

As I said I don't have much forward thinking either but definitely more than this. I really don't think that this is purely the realm of Te, Ni has to do with it too, you've just said he doesn't do the planning because he lives too much in the moment.

Ti/Se drives one to live in the moment I think. Like Fi/Se would as well.