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  1. #171
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    The point of my thread is to attempt to explain mystical things to rational types in a way they can accept; I don't know if I've at all succeeded, because people seem to not want to subject what I've said to rigorous analysis, maybe because they don't want to hurt my feelings.

  2. #172
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    There are those notable exceptions, whose approach is more mystical, but then they start looking less like Christians and more like pagans.
    Lol... that's rather why I don't find myself as welcome in the old Christian circles I used to travel.

    But basically, if I identify with anyone within the tradition now, it seems to be those who have been designated as "mystics" -- there's a large dose of Eastern thought involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    The point of my thread is to attempt to explain mystical things to rational types in a way they can accept; I don't know if I've at all succeeded, because people seem to not want to subject what I've said to rigorous analysis, maybe because they don't want to hurt my feelings.
    I would keep expressing that thought openly, to overcome any initial reticence some might have in really pushing and pulling at the ideas you are laying out. It's good to be explicit.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I agree with the Eastern view on this; the spirit world is there to help you help yourself. Your task on earth is to learn how to live on the physical plane harmoniously. If you've tried everything and still need help, that's when they can come in. But not to save you a parking space.
    The physical plane in my opinion is the very lowest level of the existence and by no means a harmonious place but rather a chaotic prison of pain and suffering.
    Our mission in life must be to liberate ourselves from our earthly shackles and eventually expand to planes beyond the terrestrial and into the celestial heavens.

  4. #174
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    The physical plane in my opinion is the very lowest level of the existence and by no means a harmonious place but rather a chaotic prison of pain and suffering.
    Our mission in life must be to liberate ourselves from our earthly shackles and eventually expand to planes beyond the terrestrial and into the celestial heavens.
    So you emphasize transcendence. Fair enough. It works for a lot of people. yang to yin

  5. #175
    Member Valis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Here is the place where you can ask anything you want to know about mysticism, spirituality, developing your feeling side and Ni, fairies, polytheism+atheism, talking to trees, psychic ability, etc.; and how it is possible to reconcile all this with being NT.







    (*Or if you must, tell me I'm not NT- but if you do prepare to back up your assertion with evidence and logic.)
    What makes you believe you are a rational type when you also believe in mysticism? These kinds of beliefs are very irrational. Do you think it could be an emotional crutch, or just that you are incorrectly typed? I believe in God and pray most days, but I know this to be irrational and based on no evidence. However, I find it comforting. If I were a stronger person I wouldn't need to do this.

  6. #176
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I could have sworn we were speaking in the present tense. Yes the nature of truth is subjective, but what I meant by "subjective truths" was a truth about something believed to be subjective, rather than outside the subject. She said she didn't believe in God or in deities in any way other than that they were mere concepts or fluid, psychological manifestations. As though the object in itself was just a subjective impression.
    Some people view deity as internal, or something each of us is part of, or at least something that can be manifested internally. Pagans say, "Thou art God/Goddess". Even Christians speak of the divine spark within each of us. Accepting something as a useful construct doesn't seem that far from belief in any case.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    We can't be sure these beings exist, so it would be impractical to make the assumption. In any case, if they do and we don't know it, they are irrelevant to us.
    Now this is illogical. Our ignorance of something does not ensure its irrelevance to us; just consider our evolving understanding of germs, for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    The physical plane in my opinion is the very lowest level of the existence and by no means a harmonious place but rather a chaotic prison of pain and suffering.
    Our mission in life must be to liberate ourselves from our earthly shackles and eventually expand to planes beyond the terrestrial and into the celestial heavens.
    This sounds suspiciously like Christian propaganda. I prefer a more integrated approach, accessing whatever aspect of reality is most suitable and available for the purpose at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Hm. Maybe I understand typology differently. Or half the time I'm just not that good at translating what I think into words. It is pretty hard to talk about things which are completely subjective in logical terms, even if they exist that way in my mind. I have a few posts where I lay out complete logical arguments, which I would think would constitute NT.

    Are there holes that I need to fill, inconsistencies I need to untangle, obscurities I need to unravel?
    Don't worry - when I see them, I will let you know. For now, I am still becoming familiar with your point of view as you have expressed it. Spiritual matters require a different type of analysis, which tends to be a bit more holistic and tolerant of subjective experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Sounds interesting. Although it might not be as relevant to MBTI as individual people discussing things relating to their types and temperaments.
    It would be interesting to compare how different types relate to paganism -- how we found it, what it means to us, how we practice, etc. I'm not sure INTJs are any more common among pagans than elsewhere, and much as I know this is the path for me, I often feel like a fish out of water in conventional pagan settings. This is a dynamic I would like to understand better. In any case, I'll play.

    As for The Secret, the type of positive thinking it describes seems more like wishful thinking, the new age equivalent of Christians who use prayer mostly to ask God for what they want. I prefer goal oriented thinking accompanied by visualization of the desired outcome. The principle here is really knowing your own mind, and understanding what is important and what is irrelevant to what you want. If you cannot imagine it, you cannot achieve it. Needless to say, none of this will amount to much unless accompanied by logical and concerted action to achieve the desired end.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #177
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'll throw in my chips with you guys on this one. I started steeped in the conservative Christian faith (where the "light" was highly touted and "dark" shunned) but as my life progressed, I realized I too have this same view of balance as necessary in the universe, and light defines dark and vice versa. Dark should not be equated with 'evil' as it has been in judeo-christian culture. I think we've lost some of our understanding of the world as well as power to invest and triumph in life and growth when we can only look at half the picture.
    This part of the discussion reminded me of a poem by a colleague from my original study group:

    The Pilgrim

    In shadowed place, by shadows bound
    Where Shadows move, but make no sound
    A moment's wait brings clear to sight
    The borderland of Day and Night.

    Upon this plain of place between,
    With Dawn's horizon sharp and keen,
    A Shadow paused on shadowed way
    To see the kingdom of the Day.

    He found a world of many hues
    Unlike the oceanic blues
    That ruled the realm of shadows deep;
    The place that is the home to sleep.

    The Shadow Pilgrim felt the air,
    Knew sights and sounds and textures fair.
    He heard the words the waking speak;
    Felt sunlight fall on Shadow cheek.

    Green of forest! Tawn of grain!
    The sizzling scent of Summer rain.
    Beauty in her daylit guise
    Brought shadow tears to shadow eyes.

    But swiftly . . . far too soon, it seems . . .
    Daylight gave away its dreams.
    With sad precision shadows know,
    He marked the fading sunset glow.

    Then Shadow left the world so bright,
    Returning to the arms of Night.
    And never spoke a shadow word;
    Nor ever shadow footstep heard.

    But night would never wear as old,
    And stars would never shine so cold.
    For all, he knows, has much to say;
    And Night's the other half of Day.

    . . . In shadowed place by shadows bound,
    A thoughtful shadow may be found,
    Who casts what shadows as he might;
    A Shadow with a soul of Light.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #178
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This part of the discussion reminded me of a poem by a colleague from my original study group:

    The Pilgrim

    In shadowed place, by shadows bound
    Where Shadows move, but make no sound
    A moment's wait brings clear to sight
    The borderland of Day and Night.

    Upon this plain of place between,
    With Dawn's horizon sharp and keen,
    A Shadow paused on shadowed way
    To see the kingdom of the Day.

    He found a world of many hues
    Unlike the oceanic blues
    That ruled the realm of shadows deep;
    The place that is the home to sleep.

    The Shadow Pilgrim felt the air,
    Knew sights and sounds and textures fair.
    He heard the words the waking speak;
    Felt sunlight fall on Shadow cheek.

    Green of forest! Tawn of grain!
    The sizzling scent of Summer rain.
    Beauty in her daylit guise
    Brought shadow tears to shadow eyes.

    But swiftly . . . far too soon, it seems . . .
    Daylight gave away its dreams.
    With sad precision shadows know,
    He marked the fading sunset glow.

    Then Shadow left the world so bright,
    Returning to the arms of Night.
    And never spoke a shadow word;
    Nor ever shadow footstep heard.

    But night would never wear as old,
    And stars would never shine so cold.
    For all, he knows, has much to say;
    And Night's the other half of Day.

    . . . In shadowed place by shadows bound,
    A thoughtful shadow may be found,
    Who casts what shadows as he might;
    A Shadow with a soul of Light.
    As a boy I often rooted for the bad guy because he had the greatest potential to be good.

    Anyway, I'm going to be exiting the conversation since I have no more questions.

    Thanks!

  9. #179
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valis View Post
    What makes you believe you are a rational type when you also believe in mysticism? These kinds of beliefs are very irrational. Do you think it could be an emotional crutch, or just that you are incorrectly typed? I believe in God and pray most days, but I know this to be irrational and based on no evidence. However, I find it comforting. If I were a stronger person I wouldn't need to do this.
    I've read several profiles about INTP's being attracted to mysticism. Ti needs to figure things out, and tends to get bored with things which are easy to figure out. Something absurdly complex like quantum physics, or so mysterious it would take a lifetime to figure out, will provide a lifetime of interest. It makes sense to me. You are free to disagree. I've explained my views on incorporating the mysterious and subjective in several places on this thread.

    So you have your Christian "mysticism" and I have my pagan "mysticism. Is one more NT than another?

  10. #180
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Now this is illogical. Our ignorance of something does not ensure its irrelevance to us; just consider our evolving understanding of germs, for instance.
    No, here is another place I have inadequately explained myself I think, or misinterpreted the question. It's true they could affect us. I mean, these beings are not relevant to our conscious processes. That is, we don't have to be aware of them and account for their existence to live in harmony with reality, except to acknowledge that we don't know everything and there might possibly be more knowledgeable beings than us, like there might be aliens. But whether they exist or not is irrelevant to what we choose to do with our lives, and how happy and functional we are. The basic underlying principles of reality can be known regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Don't worry - when I see them, I will let you know. For now, I am still becoming familiar with your point of view as you have expressed it. Spiritual matters require a different type of analysis, which tends to be a bit more holistic and tolerant of subjective experience.
    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It would be interesting to compare how different types relate to paganism -- how we found it, what it means to us, how we practice, etc. I'm not sure INTJs are any more common among pagans than elsewhere, and much as I know this is the path for me, I often feel like a fish out of water in conventional pagan settings. This is a dynamic I would like to understand better. In any case, I'll play.
    I agree, and I have theories about this. I think:
    NF's are more concerned with harmony, both inner and outer, and personal and meaningful connections with divine beings.
    NT's like the holistic approach to understanding truth, free from dogma.
    SP's tend to like the connection with the physical world, and how magic is manifested in it, and they emphasize beauty.
    SJ's like the stability of ritual and tradition carried through the ages, and the grounding they feel from nature.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    As for The Secret, the type of positive thinking it describes seems more like wishful thinking, the new age equivalent of Christians who use prayer mostly to ask God for what they want. I prefer goal oriented thinking accompanied by visualization of the desired outcome. The principle here is really knowing your own mind, and understanding what is important and what is irrelevant to what you want. If you cannot imagine it, you cannot achieve it. Needless to say, none of this will amount to much unless accompanied by logical and concerted action to achieve the desired end.
    makes sense

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