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View Poll Results: What is your view on religion as an ENTP?

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  • I am Christian and very serious about it

    14 29.79%
  • I'm Christian...whateva

    1 2.13%
  • I was raised Christian and came to my senses

    13 27.66%
  • Christians freak me the funk out, stay away!

    4 8.51%
  • I'm down with the Buddha

    5 10.64%
  • I'm Muslim

    1 2.13%
  • Judaism is my thing

    3 6.38%
  • Athists are better lovers

    8 17.02%
  • Agnostics are fearless lovers

    12 25.53%
  • Dude, what the hell, you forgot mine!

    5 10.64%
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  1. #101
    shadow boxer strawberries's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    ENTPs do have a tendency to bash tradition and mass beliefs.
    and a tendency for an irritating brand of contrariness.

    i'm agnostic, but i've learnt that belittling others for their spiritual beliefs makes you fat and grumpy.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Perch420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    Many great scientists believed in God, were they irrational?
    Yes.

  3. #103
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    Our will = Our own thoughts individual or not + The influence of the environment we live in + The influence of our biology, our genes.

    There is no such thing as 100% free will, we are modeled and model ourselves in the same time.

  4. #104
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    Yes.
    There is no proof that the universe was not created. Therefor it is not entirely illogical for one to believe the universe was created.

  5. #105
    the Dark Prophet of Kualu
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    Our will = Our own thoughts individual or not + The influence of the environment we live in + The influence of our biology, our genes.

    There is no such thing as 100% free will, we are modeled and model ourselves in the same time.
    ^ One might say we make our environment and thus make our own free will.
    Besides, what has genetics to do with free will? Wouldn't the premise of free will state that upon what you are aware, you may choose; Not by what is all around but you cannot see, is what you have to choose from. Whether or not you see your options does not necessarily negate free will.

    I'm not sure this covers anything and I hope I'm not butting in with absolutely nothing to say.
    PS. I didn't read the whole thread.
    Open for interpretation.
    Jo
    Fell for the temptation: Nohari / Johari

  6. #106
    Sniffles
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    Anybody who claims Christianity or religion in general is irrational obviously never heard of Natural Theology.

  7. #107
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gtzk View Post
    ^ One might say we make our environment and thus make our own free will.
    Besides, what has genetics to do with free will? Wouldn't the premise of free will state that upon what you are aware, you may choose; Not by what is all around but you cannot see, is what you have to choose from. Whether or not you see your options does not necessarily negate free will.

    I'm not sure this covers anything and I hope I'm not butting in with absolutely nothing to say.
    PS. I didn't read the whole thread.
    What do you mean what does genetics have to do with this? It has everything to do with this. Our behavior conditions our biology, and in the same time, our biology conditions our behavior (therefor conditions our will, since our will is dependent on our view on reality) It's perfectly symmetrical and makes perfect sense to me.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    However, wasn't the ultimate point of the Matrix that the choice was after all, meaningless, and that through constantly chasing after a Platonic ideal, and seeking to impose our version of truth, that we sow the seeds of our own destruction?

    Zion would be destroyed as long as Neo believed that the Matrix must be destroyed. It was not until both sides came to an understanding that respected the validity of the other's perspective of the world that the war ended, wasn't it?
    There's a reason why the movies began to suck more and more as they progressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I think I do. Maybe I can answer quoting the Grimm tales. Seems fair.


    Though I'm worried about your inability or unwillingness to understand that values can exist independantly of any 'god', they just need to be shared between humans to have a social existence and be shared through language and behavior. And people just so happen to have basically the same genotype, the same 'hardware' to communicate in a meaningful way. But the fact that people often also misunderstand each other and disagree on values also hints at the fact that there isn't any 'values in the sky'. Our genotypes aren't all the same yet similar enough to allow for reproduction, in the same way our genotypes and phenotypes, experiences and cultures are dissimilar enough so that people won't agree about everything yet generally be able to convey and agree on most ideas if they speak what is considered to be the same language. edit: and of course the possibilities offered by culture allow for different preferences even when genotypes and social backgrounds are basically the same

    Give a new born sugar or salt, they'll prefer sugar.
    That's a behavior you can observe. It's also an internal state, a set of information in a brain you can also observe. Something will be preferable because it, for example, stimulates the reward centers of the brain. We do have innate 'tastes' and preferences and learned preferences based on interactions between genotype, phenotype and cultural data (knowledge, the memesphere, social geshtalts..). Those natural preferences will become the 'hardware' other socially acquired and evolved 'values' will run on. A simple example of that is how we associate 'good' with far more similar than dissimilar sets of expressions and behaviors all over the world even in different cultures.
    'Good' people, things and feelings are warm, up, attractive or even 'sexy'.
    Bad people, things and feelings are cold, down, repulsive, to be avoided...

    Animals need to evolve preferences, it's a survival trait. They need to prefer eating safe nourishing food rather than poisonous mushrooms, to try to mate with their species rather than predators etc. The behaviors that translate into added reproductive rates will be correlated with the replicators that allowed for it (genes and memes in humans) and transmitted unto the next generations while other less successful strategies will be slowly weeded out of the gene and memepool. Then of course since in the case of genes there aren't enough of them to code for every little detail and evolution didn't have infinite time in a stable environment to perfect everything so the system itself will have 'quicks', redundancies, useless code, bad wiring (and it does). What counts is that it was relatively 'better'\prefered (through survival and reproduction) than the alternatives as a whole and at the time.
    There is a biological basis for preferences. But, do you honestly believe there is no fundamental difference between a cow's preference for avoiding mushrooms and a society's preference for punishing a pedophile?

    Would you not judge a community a 5000 miles away from you that allowed pedophilia to run rampant? Should you not judge them?

    In your framework you can say "pedophilia is wrong" but you must always add "or it may not be."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Do you not believe that you, too, find something beautiful because of chemical reactions in your brain, only that it is so because god intended it so?

    The truth is that we share a common set of presumptions, by virtue of which we agree that the world is more or less as we perceive it, that time is relative, that the universe is awfully vast and that the methods through which we arrive at these 'truths' are apt to discover such; we differ in that you also believe in something which is unproven and unprovable through those methods. So you actually apply two different sets of presumptions, one wrapped in the other, while I apply just one.

    When we look on the ground, we wear the same glasses, but when we look to the sky, you put on another set. Why is that? What convinced you that only this set of glasses allows for a proper view of the sky?
    Divine intervention. At least that's what I believe.

    I recently made a statement in another thread about this issue, but I'll try to rework it to fit here.
    My glasses may limit my ability to see God in the sky... But, if God is in the sky he is not limited and can descend and give a new pair of glasses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    So? That's the truth. Would you believe a lie over a truth if the lie makes you feel better?
    No, that's what you do. You believe right and wrong matter when you're framework doesn't really doesn't support a pursuit of truth. You can prefer truth or you can prefer lies, but you can't say someone SHOULD prefer truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perch420 View Post
    Religion is a burden on society and responsible for a huge amount of suffering and ignorance in the world today. If that's not a reason to attempt to argue people out of their beliefs, then I don't know what is.
    Yes, but without any moral weight behind the suffering, who cares?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Beefeater.... really?!

    I think that one's gonna come back to haunt you over and over.
    I have faith that it is perfectly consistent.
    I believe my current understanding is mostly consistent.
    At the very least I'm quite confident that the bible can be shown to be far, far, far more consistent than anti-theists make it out to be.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by guesswho View Post
    There is no proof that the universe was not created. Therefor it is not entirely illogical for one to believe the universe was created.
    There is no proof that I am not a girl..therefore it is not entirely illogical for one to believe that...

    Or is it?

  10. #110
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    I don't know why I used a double negation in the sentence. It makes it confusing.

    And you partially negating my double negation makes it even more confusing.

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