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  1. #381
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    The worst is when they lube it up.

    :horor:

    Trying to make the whole gynecological experience more, hmm, more natural. :/
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  2. #382
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    driving with the stick up your ass would be pretty impressive, but i would think it would make it kind of hard to clutch



    seriously though, sapienne, what is the argument here? people who buy cars because they want them as status symbols are bad people? even if we accept that to be true, it doesn't make anything about the cars in and of themselves bad. not any more so than the fun jewelry we wear or cute shoes we love.

    and i mean, if we extended that principle, then burn victims who get plastic surgery are bad too.

    and, moreover, a bunch of people have said it already, but - there's no proof whatsoever that even half of the people who buy sports cars do so because they seek status. i'm an auto enthusiast; i like sports cars because i find their looks aesthetically pleasing, their mechanics interesting, and mainly because they're just fun.

    look at so many of the people who posted here - they know what they're talking about. they know the specs of the cars and have particular preferences between makes and models and certain attributes. if you were just after a car because of status, there would be no reason to learn all of that. one would assume you'd be more interested in reading tabloids and canvassing private neighborhoods to see what the rich and famous drive.

    and there can be a big difference between people who drive to get somewhere, and people who drive to drive. for me, needing to get somewhere is just an excellent excuse to go out for a spin. i don't really necessarily want a car that's a perfect match to my task - i want a car that satisfies my desires for freedom, escape, power, being wild: all such primal human needs and wants. is my car an acceptable substitute for this? no... because my car genuinely fulfills those desires. i feel freedom when i'm racing down the highway with the wind in my hair. i feel power when i master hitting the apex of a particularly tricky turn. i love the full-body awareness and the clutch humming under my foot and pushing the limits of my coordination. i feel like my car is a domain over which i have full control, and one in which i know what to do best - unlike the outside world which is so often confusing and complex and pulls me in so many different directions. and people associate sports cars and sex not because they're both base and lewd, but because they both fulfill both representative and very sensory needs. even ENFPs need to remember their demonic Se.

    what i'm seeing this boil down to is a big group of auto enthusiasts who all have certain likes and dislikes. some of us prefer high-tech cars; some of us prefer vintage. some prefer more powerful engines; some prefer better handling; some prefer the ability to trek over diverse types of terrain. me, i'm the kind of girl who likes a sleek, low-profile beauty with a growling engine that i can whip around turns because that resonates with me and makes me genuinely happy. i think my car preference reflects nature too - dark obsidian stones, flat silver lakes, roaring fire, the night sky. you, you're more grounded, you like beauty that is a little flawed externally, maybe a little quirky, with earthy colors, a vehicle that is well-suited to the driving you do. you like that because it resonates with you and makes you genuinely happy.

    are we so different?


    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I say it's insensible to dump so much money and emotion on expensive cars.


    In all fairness Not_Me, you're being completely sensible with your value judgments. Cars are a huge waste of money. Before I purchased one of my cars, I calculated the future value of the money I was spending and compounding of interest/investment 30 years forward. I looked at depreciation rate for the car in question. It's not the smartest thing to do. Still, my value judgement is that in moderation, if I can afford it and I'm getting a reasonable deal, it can be worth it to me personally for many of the reasons skylights just mentioned. I also have a weakness for nicer things in general which has nothing to do with the visibility of that consumption.

    It's really all about money. How much do people sacrifice to make it? How important is it and what do we want to do with it? Some of us struggle to get by week buy week eating pork and beans, packaged ravioli, and ramen noodles (I did that). Some of us want to invest. Some of us start businesses. Some pay for our children's college. Others don't. Some of us money put in CDs and don't want to take any risks. Some have an investment portfolio in stocks and bonds. Some buy investments real estate. Some buy nice shoes and clothes. Some keep horses. Some of us buy big houses. Some of us buy boats. Some of us have a cabin by a river or lake. Some of us give away 10% of our income to our churches. Some of us donate a lot to charity. Some of don't spend any and die rich giving much their money to probate taxes and their children. Others run out of money in retirement because they didn't save or plan well enough. Others don't have a job. We may be excessively wasteful by going out to eat all the time or cooking frozen dinners or we can make and eat more healthy food we cook ourselves. Our choices are endless. What's right and what's wrong?

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  3. #383
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post

    look at so many of the people who posted here - they know what they're talking about. they know the specs of the cars and have particular preferences between makes and models and certain attributes. if you were just after a car because of status, there would be no reason to learn all of that. one would assume you'd be more interested in reading tabloids and canvassing private neighborhoods to see what the rich and famous drive.

    and there can be a big difference between people who drive to get somewhere, and people who drive to drive. for me, needing to get somewhere is just an excellent excuse to go out for a spin. i don't really necessarily want a car that's a perfect match to my task - i want a car that satisfies my desires for freedom, escape, power, being wild: all such primal human needs and wants. is my car an acceptable substitute for this? no... because my car genuinely fulfills those desires. i feel freedom when i'm racing down the highway with the wind in my hair. i feel power when i master hitting the apex of a particularly tricky turn. i love the full-body awareness and the clutch humming under my foot and pushing the limits of my coordination. i feel like my car is a domain over which i have full control, and one in which i know what to do best - unlike the outside world which is so often confusing and complex and pulls me in so many different directions. and people associate sports cars and sex not because they're both base and lewd, but because they both fulfill both representative and very sensory needs. even ENFPs need to remember their demonic Se.

    what i'm seeing this boil down to is a big group of auto enthusiasts who all have certain likes and dislikes. some of us prefer high-tech cars; some of us prefer vintage. some prefer more powerful engines; some prefer better handling; some prefer the ability to trek over diverse types of terrain. me, i'm the kind of girl who likes a sleek, low-profile beauty with a growling engine that i can whip around turns because that resonates with me and makes me genuinely happy. i think my car preference reflects nature too - dark obsidian stones, flat silver lakes, roaring fire, the night sky. you, you're more grounded, you like beauty that is a little flawed externally, maybe a little quirky, with earthy colors, a vehicle that is well-suited to the driving you do. you like that because it resonates with you and makes you genuinely happy.

    are we so different?
    Hahahaha, touche!

    To be honest, I was actually a little butt hurt by your initial post, but after reading this how can I be mad at you.

    You make it all sound so rich with soul that my argument and resentments melt away.

    Thanks for the metaphorical spin, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  4. #384
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Man, this thread got offensive, and that's saying something.

    It's saying I have inferior sensing, just like all you supposed NFPs are supposed to have. And that means all of us, in one form or another, spend a lot of time rejecting the directly physical world. Yet we retain some link to it. And if you purported humanist NFPs are unable to see the cold, clammy hand of your own rejection of the physical world in your determination of what's real for, ahem, my people... and yourselves... etc.

    Oh damn... it's true? NFPs are soccer moms?

    "Dear, do you really think we need to buy a Ferrari, hm? It's so lovely when you get excited, but a minivan would be so much nicer... it'd be an efficient use of resources too, don't you think that's important any more?"
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    It is not about seeking status, per se, as much as it is about displaying status.

    That, if you or anyone else is wondering what I am "arguing" about is what I am arguing about.

    It is not my cup of tea, the perpetuation of status symbols.
    So are you claiming that the reason INTJs like "nice cars" is to display status?

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    And, of course it is difficult to judge an inanimate object to be good or bad, but do these things elicit emotions in you?
    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Some things have/emanate social/emotional presence. No?
    I would easily say "yes" to the first; I would be much more hesitant to say "yes" to the second.

    Reason: inanimate objects do indeed elicit certain levels and types of emotional response from me, but it doesn't seem as proper/accurate to say they "have" or "emanate" emotional presence.

    To an extent, I could agree with that, more so with regards to "emanate", as that construction somewhat implies the relationship between the object and the perceiving subject (but not really that much, tbh), but I can't really agree that much with the construction that they "have" emotional presence, as that construction would seem to remove the perceiving subject from the equation, and, frankly, I don't care how much Auschwitz might cause an emotional response in the minds of people from the Western world (and perhaps elsewhere [although, elsewhere the emotional response would almost certainly be different]), it's probably not going to elicit even a remotely similar response from an extraterrestrial from Mars who stops by and visits our planet, unaware of and uninterested in our stories and history.

    In fact, I'm now gunna go through the images you provided, and tell you what my emotional response is.

    That way you can see how much they may or may not resemble your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    What is that? A factory? A place where they burned Jews during WW2? I'm not sure...

    I think it's probably a place where they burned Jews, as it's probably supposed to be eliciting an emotional response from me; that, and my girlfriend's a Jew-bagel.

    I'm supposed to feel sad about this, but the image isn't terribly striking, and my initial (and still somewhat) existent uncertainty are dampening the emotional response I might otherwise have.

    *forcing myself to feel sad about the image, even if it's not about burning Jews, because we must remember to feel bad about what happened during the Holocaust or the Jews that control Hollywood will produce even more movies about it in order to make us feel bad for the Jews and thereby continue our unbridled support for Israel, even if I'm just looking at an image of some random factory*

    /Al-Zawahiri, Richard Nixon, liberal college professor

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    *Two seconds of uncertainty*

    *Three second of "Is that a bottle opener?"*

    *Ten seconds of "Is that one of those things an OBGYN uses?"*

    *Yeah, it probably is, cuz this is supposed to be an image that elicits an emotional response from me*

    *This doesn't really elicit an emotional response from me, other than perhaps a comedic one, thinking about this going up my girlfriend's chacha*

    *smirk*

    *teehehe*

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    *boring*

    *oh, it's Louis Vitton*

    *feel slightly annoyed*

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    *I hate liberals*

    So, is that what you felt?


  6. #386
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Man, this thread got offensive, and that's saying something.

    It's saying I have inferior sensing, just like all you supposed NFPs are supposed to have. And that means all of us, in one form or another, spend a lot of time rejecting the directly physical world. Yet we retain some link to it. And if you purported humanist NFPs are unable to see the cold, clammy hand of your own rejection of the physical world in your determination of what's real for, ahem, my people... and yourselves... etc.

    Oh damn... it's true? NFPs are soccer moms?

    "Dear, do you really think we need to buy a Ferrari, hm? It's so lovely when you get excited, but a minivan would be so much nicer... it'd be an efficient use of resources too, don't you think that's important any more?"
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  7. #387
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    My boyfriend apparently finds it humorous when a cold, lubricated speculum goes up my "chacha"

    I don't know how I should feel, right now.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  8. #388
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Hahahaha, touche!

    To be honest, I was actually a little butt hurt by your initial post, but after reading this how can I be mad at you.

    You make it all sound so rich with soul that my argument and resentments melt away.

    Thanks for the metaphorical spin, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post.



    sorry we met like this! i've been reading your posts (*cough*lurking) for a while and i think i forgot that we'd never talked. lol oopsie. i didn't mean to butthurt you. i just felt kind of like you were unfairly attacking my family, cause they're all car lovers too. so i got all Te-y. sorry it takes me forever to edit, too. i didn't mean to hit submit that quickly either, i always end up hitting it via my keyboard by accident. lol.

    for the record i totally agree with you about hating when people's style is all the louis vuitton and coach shit they can find. and that bag is not very attractive, in my opinion


    it's interesting what you said about your family. i come from a relatively affluent but very, very not status-symbol interested family... on one hand, i do think buying things you have no interest in just to please others can be a soulless trap, absolutely. on the other, i also think there's some legitimacy to owning things that your social groups also own. it ties you together, relates you. for instance, some women i know aren't very good at dressing artistically, but want to look nice - they want to show others that they are making an effort to represent their work/family/church in a good light - so they buy expensive brands. it's less about saying "love me" and more about saying "i care".

    so... not really arguing for or against anything - but maybe sharing another perspective.

    lastly - speculum

  9. #389
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    The other thing is the apparent blindness to other kinds of decision-making. The value of typology is the freedom it gives about 92 percent of the population to not be ENFP.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  10. #390
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    if I can afford it and I'm getting a reasonable deal, it can be worth it to me
    i just set a budget. how much do i want to spend?
    then go shopping. to me, the thrill is having low involvement
    in something that's usually high involvement. i change cars often.
    i like the satisfaction of it. it's like mmm adult fun.

    I also have a weakness for nicer things in general which has nothing to do with the visibility of that consumption.
    i love aesthetics and i appreciate the work put towards well-made things.

    i make a lot of my own clothes, cutting up and putting it together, but i definitely
    appreciate some of the great designers, kinda like personal muses, a springboard for
    inspiration, a silent one-sided collaboaration. i love that conceptual and avant garde
    work can trickle down to something more consumable for the masses.

    this is true for any facets of design, automobile design or fashion. i love how
    that trickling down, the essence of sharing on a mass scale can inspire trends,
    create counter cultures and such. growth.

    i'm a sucker for well-made aesthetically pleasing things.
    god i also love men's watches. i wear boy-sized ones.
    every normal man must be tempted, at times,
    to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
    and begin slitting throats.
    h.l. mencken

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