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  1. #21
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Awesome answers, Southern Kross I'm learning so much! And I do feel like I have some of that, but that it is indeed very much unconscious.
    Are you kidding? It's pretty unconscious for me too. I had to try and rake my scattered thoughts and processes together to write all that!

    And I like enhancing the well being of others and the planet, because we are all connected. I too respect virtues, but I like everything to fit into underlying principles of reality, like how humans work and how ecosystems fit together. Which I have been understanding as Fe-Ti with a dash of Ni. My ethics consist of harmony, balance of power, and preserving and enhancing life (objectively); and (subjectively) being responsible for the consequences of one's actions. I figure you can't go wrong there.
    I'm not that great about stating a personal ethos like that - it's too complicated and situational to put into words. If I had one it would be something vague like "minimize harm" or the like. Yours sounds pretty good too.

    It does kind of bother me that there is so much situational variability- but that's the beauty of life, I suppose. It provides us with an opportunity to learn and grow in consciousness.
    Yeah, that's something that bothers me too. All you can do is bring a little method to the madness - IMO there isn't a full-proof ethical system.

    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Information gets filtered through Ne, assessed relevance by Te, stored as Si and recalled by the normal mind as Fi, which in turns influences Ne's initial course.
    This is correct in part but I struggle to believe Fi is merely a process further down the line. It may be true but it doesn't feel that way. It feels much more like a in-built meter measuring the world around you, giving you readings that you have to learn to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I like that too. I have a memory from age 5 feeling out the true and false of a situation involving my parents. I can remember in Grade 3 sitting at my desk in my room pondering whether "Patience is a Virtue" was true or a truism. How old was I, 8? I recall being quite fascinated with that saying.

    These are the kinds of thoughts I remember most. It's very difficult to define.
    Yeah, exactly. As a child, it's like it was leading you in places you have no comprehension of, let alone been to yet.

    Indeed, there were times in math I would know the answer but not be able to work up the how.

    By the end of high school it made nearly all maths very frustrating, and I started to lose interest in trying to prove answers. Plus, it seemed that more than one pathway was acceptable, and I had no parameters to discern which was most relevant, or why there should be more than one, or even what the purpose of each math was.

    Answers would seem instinctively correct to me, but unlike people stuff, there was no value I could look at to help me decide which path to take. No "gut feeling", no sense of how that balances in the universe, somehow.
    Ugh, it can be annoying. Sometimes it's fun because it's nice to explore the why of things; other times it drives me crazy because it's so laborious to do so and feels like redundant information.

    I find it fascinating to look inside myself and engage with the highly elastic yet rigidly concrete aspect of such things, and how the nuances have evolved over time, how I have evolved. I can't even put that into words, really. At least not at the moment, and I don't know if I really even want to attempt it. It won't be the same, transferred from images and feelings into words.
    Yes, it is hard to define the nature of that. I like that image, "elastic concrete".

    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    The reasoning?
    I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate on this question?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #22
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    Right, @Southern Kross - at the 'end' of my loop I address that, with the normal mind stuff.


    I really just made it up on the spot, no critical thought involved - I'm sure you could write eight different ways how to arrive at something plausible.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate
    This is what I meant.

    What I know feels tangible. When I try to imagine others' perspectives on an issue it feels like a fuzzy dream that is probably not real at all.

  4. #24
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    This is what I meant.

    What I know feels tangible. When I try to imagine others' perspectives on an issue it feels like a fuzzy dream that is probably not real at all.
    Really?

    Maybe you should answer the questions too if you have a different experience/approach. It might be interesting to compare.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Really?

    Maybe you should answer the questions too if you have a different experience/approach. It might be interesting to compare.
    It would be really great if you talk a little bit about how that process feels like. It doesn't have to make sense. Don't try to "translate" it for me.
    Could you do that for me please?

    The only thing I can know with some degree of certainty is what X means to me. Imagining what it means to somebody else seems unreal, like a fantasy. Seems fake. Seems like an imposition on their free will.

  6. #26
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    It would be really great if you talk a little bit about how that process feels like. It doesn't have to make sense. Don't try to "translate" it for me.
    Could you do that for me please?

    The only thing I can know with some degree of certainty is what X means to me. Imagining what it means to somebody else seems unreal, like a fantasy. Seems fake. Seems like an imposition on their free will.
    I don't know. I guess there are just so many possible ways of seeing the same thing - and while something might mean one thing to me, I can see all the other perspectives too. If I have some idea of what a person's nature is or what sort of background they have, I can match that up with a possible perspective.

    Often I'm fascinated with what people see and how they respond to things. I went to Israel, The Palestinian West Bank, Jordan and Egypt a few years back, and went to all of the major holy sites. I am an Atheist (well, technically I would say a Agnostic Atheist) and while I have an interest in religion, in spiritual terms these places meant nothing to me beyond their beauty and in appreciating the reactions of others. I remember standing atop Mt Sinai watching the sun come up, and the indescribable red glow over the barren mountains in the desert, stretching as far as the eye could see. It was one of the most stunning things I've ever seen, but to others it meant even more. There were thousands of tourists up there - many of them in a pilgrimage tour group from various countries. I remember this group of Russian Orthodox Christians being lead in a church service by a priest and them singing the most beautiful hymns. It was a wonderful thing to experience because I felt their spiritual joy and their deep connection to that place through their beliefs. I just loved that. I didn't have to believe the same thing they did to imagine that and appreciate it - and in the end it enrichened my experience.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #27
    Senior Member IceBlock's Avatar
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    Where do the values come from- what part of you?
    My values are completely emotional, coming from "the heart".

    Are they backed up by reason, and if so what kind of reason?
    Rarely, for me. I have this deep disgust for drugs, for example. Being a simple joint to an extreme Heroin, I have always had this hate for drugs and I know I will never use any of them. There's no reason at all, no concrete facts that support my preference, nothing, I just perceive them as terribly wrong with no factual backup.

    Do you feel the need to back them up by reason or does that offend you? Are they purely subjective or purely relativistic?
    Sometimes yes. The biggest problem is when I expose an important value of mine to someone, and this person keeps asking for a logical backup. That does offend me, because I can't provide it to the person, hence I start doubting myself. Aside from that, I feel like I have no reason to come up with logical facts to my values, unless, when, for some reason, I get in conflict of what should be really important to me and what should not. In these situations, I frequently ask myself what are the reasons and logical data for something I believe, and why should I keep believing in that.

    Are things right only for you or are they right for everyone? Are things wrong only for you or for everyone?
    It varies. Plenty of stuff that I strongly believe are universally well-received. Some other stuff are comepletely mine, and not as well received. Also, I have a little bit of values and beliefs that are seen as extremely wrong by everyone.

    What happens when value/ethical systems clash?
    That is a huge problem, it happens occasionally. As somebody else here said, the Fi is generated and built along the years. It is in constant formation, because every new experience we have are put into weight. When I experience something that goes so much against my values, I start to review them. And then it's the only time that I need to back up my values with concrete factual data provided by Te and the weak Si. When the new clashing value that I just experienced is more logical and concrete, and I can no longer defend my old belief, a little less than a week long process starts to update the whole value system. Also, frequently this process triggers some existencial doubts, that whole "who am I?" thing, and may get really tricky to solve and get over. It's not an easy process, and requires a lot of energy.

    Do you argue or let them have their own point of view?
    I rarely argue over values and beliefs. I learned as a child that it's important to me to keep my values to myself, and not express them frequently. Also, I have an incredibly hard time to put into words the stuff I believe. And, finally, speaking as an ENFP I guess, I don't like to argue with people.

    Does it matter to you if other people agree with you?
    Yes! Although I don't show my values a lot, I feel like my values are indeed right and worthy if people agrees with me.

    Do ethical systems have to be logically organized?
    I can't answer this for all users of Fi out there, but mine, at least, it's not. It's a complete mess. My Fi is really immature, maybe that's the reason.

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