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  1. #141
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    how do you envision it, though? you have to start off with something to get a vision. Ne would make a bunch of random guesses that would have to be analyzed by a judging function. Ni would connect the data with a long term framework, which would explain why the data is much more likely to connect properly when analyzed by a judging function. (and it also explains why Ni is so much slower than Ne).



    yes. but you can't just jump to an answer without a framework guiding you. it's not like Ni just magically knows the answer.
    Please note that I didn't make any kind of claim about Ni not possessing any kind of framework formed by data. Actually, my whole post had nothing to do with the little debate you and Kiddo were having, I just wished to differentiate between Ni and Ne.
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  2. #142
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    well people just have to realize that they're more likely to be happy when they are nice to others. if you cut people off by being mean, you suffer. sacrificing yourself for others in a healthy way is a long term investment that most likely benefits you.

    it's still self-promotion, though.
    Umm. Does not compute. That as self-promotion? Ick. 'Long term investment that most likely benefits you?' ick.

    This doesn't sit right with me. Relationships like that... as investments... it just sounds too cold...
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  3. #143
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Umm. Does not compute. That as self-promotion? Ick. 'Long term investment that most likely benefits you?' ick.

    This doesn't sit right with me. Relationships like that... as investments... it just sounds too cold...
    An INTJ calling an INFJ cold? :horor:
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  4. #144
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    An INTJ calling an INFJ cold? :horor:
    I knew you were going to respond like that.

    A business relationship is an investment. A personal relationship is so much more than that. There's something more intangible to it.

    You're allowed to speak like that until it comes to application. Or can INFJs always do that?

    That's creepy.
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  5. #145
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I knew you were going to respond like that.

    A business relationship is an investment. A personal relationship is so much more than that. There's something more intangible to it.

    You're allowed to speak like that until it comes to application. Or can INFJs always do that?

    That's creepy.
    I'm not exactly sure I'm in agreement with dissonance on that one. I see a relationship as a mutually beneficial experience, since both parties can share their emotional, intellectual, and sometimes physical capacities. In a relationship you also have someone to help you shoulder the burdens and vice versa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  6. #146
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I'm not exactly sure I'm in agreement with dissonance on that one. I see a relationship as a mutually beneficial experience, since both parties can share their emotional, intellectual, and sometimes physical capacities. In a relationship you also have someone to help you shoulder the burdens and vice versa.
    Again, does not compute.

    'Mutually beneficial' is as much as I got. And I can agree with that.
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  7. #147
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Well, I have a close INTJ friend (female) that I get along great with. We make up for each other's weaknesses as coworkers in the residence hall. She is great with putting together events and committees, but tends to fall apart when people start having problems for whatever reason. I can easily step in and be the diplomat to fix these kinds of problems. I would like to think that we have both come to value the qualities the other possesses that used to cause a lot of friction and dislike between us.
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  8. #148
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    A business relationship is an investment. A personal relationship is so much more than that. There's something more intangible to it.
    a personal relationship is totally an investment as well. emotions, connection-feeling, all of those things can be thought of as pros and cons to be weighed strategically in deciding how much energy to invest in the future of the relationship.

    i'm not making any claim about the nature of emotional connections, i'm just saying they can be broken down into how they positively and negatively affect an individual. and from that perspective, everyone should make decisions that maximize their own positive feelings.

  9. #149
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    Please note that I didn't make any kind of claim about Ni not possessing any kind of framework formed by data. Actually, my whole post had nothing to do with the little debate you and Kiddo were having, I just wished to differentiate between Ni and Ne.
    sorry

  10. #150
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I can see "self-preservation and self-promotion" as being the original pursuit of life but it can't be final. Using it as the final pursuit of life is very immature. It looks like an extremely easy trap to fall into, though, hence Ayn Rand's popularity, I guess.
    Well said!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Ayn Rand is most popular amount young white males, ages 16-25. That is the time in life where most people have established their identity and have entered the intimacy vs. isolation crisis described by Erickson. It's a period in people's lives where they begin to form relationships and they have to learn that their identities will not disappear by becoming interdependent on others. Failure to do so results in isolation.
    Ah, so that's what's eating Uberfurer!

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Umm. Does not compute. That as self-promotion? Ick. 'Long term investment that most likely benefits you?' ick.

    This doesn't sit right with me. Relationships like that... as investments... it just sounds too cold...
    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    A business relationship is an investment. A personal relationship is so much more than that. There's something more intangible to it.
    There might be more to it on an emotional level, but I've found this is how most people and societies function. When we receive, we give. When we give we expect to receive. When Jesus talks about doing onto others etc. it can be read as him confirming this is how people work, and ask people to invest in order to make them and their societies "richer". In my eyes we all operate in a large strategy game where we calculate cost/risk/reward in our transaction offers.

    Example of transactions:
    a) Talking with an old lady for a while for money.
    b) Talking with an old lady for a while for a good feeling (feeling kind, feeling you're doing your duty etc.)
    c) Talking with an old lady for a while for the potential of gaining new knowledge.

    Often people do it for more than one reason, but it's still subject to a cost/risk/reward consideration. If you did it mainly for reason a) and someone stopped giving you money for it, you'd probably stop the transactions unless you'd found it was still worth it for reason b) or c). Or b) and you no longer felt kind or felt it was your duty, it'd be the same. Or you did it for c) and realized the chances of actually learning any useful from the old cow really weren't worth the investment and you didn't really didn't feel kind enough or feel obliged enough to keep doing it.

    Since people value things differently, the investments of two people can give them both a lot more in return than they gave (or the possibility of gaining more in the future). You'll often hear people in a relationship say "he gave me X, while I gave him Y" where X and Y can be for instance stability and excitement. It costs a stable person little to give stability or an exciting one little to give excitement, and they get a lot in return. Saying "he gave me stability, while I gave him stability" however seems less likely, as you rarely trade X for X. ("I'll give you $1000 if you give me 1000$.") Relationships often experience a crisis if it started out with a transaction of X for Y and as one part develops he suddenly needs Z instead of Y. If the crisis can't be resolved, he'll start investing less in the relationship unless duty/feeling kind/other rewards still makes the investment potentially worth it.

    Of course we'll come up with other explanations when things like this actually happens, as we don't want to sound like cold, ruthless economists, but if you look at the underlying patterns, you'll see that this dynamic explains quite a bit.
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