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Thread: ENFP vs. ENFJ

  1. #11
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    I've always visualized ENFPs as these folks who seeem to hold no specific group of people that they hang out with. The type of person who you see going about groups of people, whether in a workplace, school or any other location, and just moving about. Meanwhile, you have ENFJs who created a space or were apart of a space of community and were firmly rooted there.

    I dont know if that makes any sense...but well - thats what I'm thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Reading posts like this reminds me why I've ceased responding to threads asking for what Fe is or how it operates. Fe is so often conceptually parred down to a lack of thought outside of what The Hive says to think or what is socially acceptable, fearing being thrown out of the city gates or having to stand alone. I don't doubt there are ENFJs (and ESFJs) like this, but I also question people's ability to accurately recognize those who aren't without mistyping them as something else. I interpret this post as painting ENFJs with the same brush; basically molds of whatever society tells them to be while ENFPs paint themselves as being these dynamic individuals that are so different from each other and taking stands for what's right and true regardless of the consequences. You guys are obviously superheroes!

    At my job it was an ESFJ who advocated and championed updating several of our HR policies, especially the maternal and paternal leave policies to include people that have adopted a child as well as domestic partners. I know people were afraid to put their necks out there and criticize leadership at my organization for not doing it but she wasn't. It was also an ESFJ male at my job who started our monthly Diversity Lunches. I know people often scoff at things like this as being PC, instead of looking at them as platforms for people to speak openly and freely about issues that they wouldn't ordinarily get to speak about over the course of the day with people you work with 40+ hours per week.

    People tend to overlook these aspects of the of Fe, what it means to truly commune with others, create spaces and places to facilitate sharing and openness. And yeah, you do need to do this through a shared "language" that most people can agree on what gestures and symbols indicate. A hug means this, a pat on the back means that, gathering in a circle means this. Whatever that group has decided its language and expression of that language will be it does need to be codified and spread in some way and enough people have to agree to the meaning of that language for it to take root.

    I think a major difference between ENFPs and ENFJs that I can observe is this tendency to want to create a sense of community with others. No matter what anybody says to the contrary, I know that people want to belong to something. No matter how fringe or socially un/acceptable (:rolli it is, people want the platform available to commune with others who share their worldview. If you're comparing ENFPs to ENFJs in this particular instance I think ENFJs are more likely to be the ones to create the space for people to get together and actively sustain and cultivate it.
    proteanmix, let me be the first to say that I have a hard time understanding Fe. So anything you could say to enlighten me would be appreciated.

    Obviously Fe is more complex than "following the social norm." But to be completely honest, I have not seen much more complexity than this in the ENFJs I've observed. (And, I'm not saying this is the ENFJ's fault. It might be a blind spot in my own understanding.) I certainly did not intend to imply that ENFJs were simply empty vessels of social normalness.

    Perhaps I can say it better this way:

    First of all, ENFJs seem to usually have a specific agenda... like getting the senior management to offer family leave. ENFP goals aren't necessarily so specific. So ENFPs and ENFJs both try to change their worlds for the better. But HOW they effect this change is different. I think of outsider versus insider art. ENFPs would be analogous to the outsiders. ENFJs to the insiders. Both can be profound. Both can inspire people and changes ways of doing things. But one effects change from within the system. The other stands on the sidelines prophesying.

    Why this difference? Is it Fi versus Fe? Probably so. Note the role of feeling for ENFPs and ENFJs.

    ENFP — Ne > Fi > Te > Si
    INFJ — Ni > Fe > Ti > Se
    ENFJ — Fe > Ni > Se > Ti
    INFP — Fi > Ne > Si > Te

    Then there's the fact that ENFPs and ENFJs are renowned for not getting along. Let me quote this socionics description of ENFP/ENFJ relations:

    Quasi-Identical Relations: ENFJ & ENFP

    These are relations of major misunderstanding... they are likely to have an argumentative relationship.

    A positive aspect of these relations is that Quasi-Identical partners do not underline your weak points and therefore are not viewed as dangerous by each other. Neither do they see each other as equal. Each partner sees the other as less capable than themselves, hence less talented. However, Quasi-Identicals mistakenly believe that their partner is achieving more than they are. This is perceived by both partners as injustice and may hinder the ambitions of both.

    In these relations partners always have difficulty understanding each other in full. Quasi-Identical partners always need to convert each other's information in such a way that it corresponds with their own understanding. This conversion requires much energy and does not bring the desired satisfaction. Books written by your Quasi-Identical are impossible to read. The creations of your Quasi-Identical look monstrous. Conversations with your Quasi-Identical, although not heavy, do not bring any satisfaction either. One partner may think that the other partner complicates simple things and simplifies the important points, trying to deliberately confuse and mislead them. Both partners are convinced that whatever their partner was trying to say, could be explained in a different and more understandable way.

    Quasi-Identicals normally have no difficulties in finding topics for conversation or discussion. When it comes to solving problems together, Quasi-Identical partners begin to understand that they are both thinking in very different ways.
    So in sum, I think anyone who can wrap their head around the differences between Fe and Fi, and the friction this generates between ENFJs and ENFPs will be well on their way to differentiating these two types.

    I find it fascinating how differently ENFPs and ENFJs think. I may not be able to put my finger on exactly what is the basis for this disparity in thinking, but I can tell you that while at first, I seem to get along famously with ENFJs, usually after only a short while, I realize that we are on different planets.

  3. #13
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    Fe, or extroverted Feeling is dominant for ExFJ, secondary for IxFJ, tertiary for ExTP and inferior for IxTP. It is an attitude that encourages adherence to the ethics of the cultural/social/familial groups we feel emotionally connected to. Fe leads you to derive your moral viewpoints from some sort of externalized consensus. This doesn't mean you automatically fall in line with whatever moral viewpoints happen to surround you, just that (unlike the accompanying Ti view on logic as something you don't need external input to understand) you don't see how ethics can be decided reasonably without some sort of external context. (Fe views ethics as dependent upon collective consensus in the same way Te views logic/impersonal ideas.)

    Fe leads people to adjust, hide or set aside entirely their own emotions in favor of fitting the emotional needs of the broader groups that are important to them. This leads to a certain respect for the common consensus among those important groups regarding interpersonal behavior and treatment of others. If you were to criticize someone's behavior from an Fe standpoint, it would be from the standpoint of, "Your behavior is inconsistent with the group's standards--most people would consider it wrong or inappropriate." Fe appeals to the collective morality of the whole; the fact that "most people would agree" serves as externally objective evidence to support Fe's moral standpoints.

    People with strong Fe are typically good at saying just the right thing that fits in with the moral expectations of the audience. For this reason Fe tends to make great politicans because strong Fe users often make outstanding, charismatic public speakers who can play off the emotions of others to rally groups toward the desired cause. They are excellent at organizing, leading and delegating tasks to others with an interpersonal style that gets the job done while still appearing socially appropriate and respecting the emotional needs of others (so long as those needs are reasonable within the group's objective framework of ethics.) They understand how to perform the social/cultural responsibilities expected of them and they expect others to do the same, and if you're not fulfilling these responsibilities they're very good at appealing to the crowd to deliberately make you look like an asshole in front of everyone. ("Look everyone, this guy doesn't fit with our collective moral ideals!")

    Fe considers it paramount to show overt displays of loyalty to the people in the groups it feels connected to, which includes helping out friends/family whenever possible and receiving similar displays of loyalty in return. (If these displays are not reciprocated Fe may take this as a sign that the other person is not loyal.) Fe tends to see Fi users as selfish for refusing to adapt their feelings to the feelings of others in service of the good of the larger group, and for ignoring objective standards on ethics in favor of purely personal ones.

    The whole idea behind Ms. Manners is very Fe--Fi would wonder why anyone cares about any external consensus on ethics, because to Fi ethics are purely subjective. Fe is concerned with adjusting to the ethical standards as established objectively by the groups it feels are important.
    This is what I got for Fe. Compare it to Ne.

    Ne, or extroverted iNtuition, is dominant for ENxP, secondary for INxP, tertiary for ESxJ and inferior for ISxJ. It is an outwardly exploratory attitude that encourages us to change, reinvent and experiment with the external world in order to find new and interesting combinations and patterns. Ne looks for novel outcomes and imagines how the things around you could be changed into other, more interesting things. Ne sees new information as part of a larger, emerging, as of yet unseen pattern that extends far beyond the self, and whose meaning will continue to change as the context grows and we discover more of the all-encompassing pattern. Rather than directly confront an issue, Ne will often broaden the context until the issue seems insignificant by comparison to the much bigger and more expansive ideas it imagines.

    As with all extroverted functions, Ne needs to be validated by external/objective information to have meaning. So Ne users will often have many ideas very quickly but not know if they're good until they hear other people's reactions to them, or have a chance to experiment and see what happens. Ne wants very badly to be understood and appreciated by others. Note that Ne songwriters (e.g. Brandon Boyd, ENFP) will typically write enough context clues and such into their work that you can put the pieces together and infer what they were thinking when they wrote it. They want others to put the pieces together and get it.
    And well...here's a lil' analogy.

    The Eight Functions and Fence-Building

    Ne - I want to design the fence.
    Ni - Why do they want to do this and what is the deal with fences anyway? Is this necessary?
    Se - I want to decorate the fence and make sure that it looks stylish and appealing
    Si - I’ll take care of looking at the instructions and making sure that we follow the established guidelines.
    Te - Is doing this cost effective? Will it be useful?
    Ti - I want to analyze the structure and placement of the fence.
    Fe - How will it affect the neighborhood, and what will the neighbors think?
    Fi - I want it to be my own special fence that I can share with others over time

  4. #14
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    Ne, or extroverted iNtuition, is dominant for ENxP, secondary for INxP, tertiary for ESxJ and inferior for ISxJ. It is an outwardly exploratory attitude that encourages us to change, reinvent and experiment with the external world in order to find new and interesting combinations and patterns. Ne looks for novel outcomes and imagines how the things around you could be changed into other, more interesting things. Ne sees new information as part of a larger, emerging, as of yet unseen pattern that extends far beyond the self, and whose meaning will continue to change as the context grows and we discover more of the all-encompassing pattern. Rather than directly confront an issue, Ne will often broaden the context until the issue seems insignificant by comparison to the much bigger and more expansive ideas it imagines.

    As with all extroverted functions, Ne needs to be validated by external/objective information to have meaning. So Ne users will often have many ideas very quickly but not know if they're good until they hear other people's reactions to them, or have a chance to experiment and see what happens. Ne wants very badly to be understood and appreciated by others. Note that Ne songwriters (e.g. Brandon Boyd, ENFP) will typically write enough context clues and such into their work that you can put the pieces together and infer what they were thinking when they wrote it. They want others to put the pieces together and get it.
    I love that description. Do you have one for Fi?

  5. #15
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    Deja Vu, I really liked these function descriptions. Where did you get these? I haven't seen them before.

    And I really found this fence-building quote helpful, too. Did it come from the same place?

    The Eight Functions and Fence-Building

    Ne - I want to design the fence.
    Ni - Why do they want to do this and what is the deal with fences anyway? Is this necessary?
    Se - I want to decorate the fence and make sure that it looks stylish and appealing
    Si - I’ll take care of looking at the instructions and making sure that we follow the established guidelines.
    Te - Is doing this cost effective? Will it be useful?
    Ti - I want to analyze the structure and placement of the fence.
    Fe - How will it affect the neighborhood, and what will the neighbors think?
    Fi - I want it to be my own special fence that I can share with others over time

  6. #16
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    Intro to Function Theory + More Detailed Descriptions of Each Function Attitude - PersonalityCafe

    It's from SimulatedWorld. I don't know if he was the original author though.


    Fi, or introverted Feeling, is dominant for IxFP, secondary for ExFP, tertiary for IxTJ and inferior for ExTJ. Unlike Fe, Fi leads you to draw ethics purely from an internal, subjective source and finds Fe's collective approach to morality shallow and fake. Since ethics are purely a personal ideal in Fi's view, all personal feelings are sacred and allowing any outside views to affect them is patently unethical. Fi treats ethics in the same way Ti treats logic, in that it's something that requires no external context to understand and that should not be influenced or changed by any outside forces.

    The ability to express one's personal feelings and inner self freely and maintain a strong sense of personal uniqueness and individuality is of utmost importance to Fi. (It's also important to Ti, but for different reasons and in different contexts.) I have found that many Fi users dislike typology in general because they feel that "putting people into boxes" suppresses their sense of personal identity, and that people are too unique to be categorized so easily.

    Fi people are typically very good at picking up emotional vibes in the tone of voice and word choice of others. They often know what you're feeling even better than you do because they're aware of the subtle effects that different emotional states have on our behaviors and can pick up cues about how you're feeling that you didn't even intend to give off. For this reason strong Fi users are profoundly empathetic and tend to understand and identify with basic human needs on a profound level. If you were to criticize someone's behavior from an Fi standpoint, it would be in the form of, "What you are doing is hurting my feelings/violating my ethics/preventing me from fulfilling my basic human needs." Strong Fi users often feel a certain connection to the beauty of nature, animals, and life itself, simply "knowing" deep inside themselves that life is sacred and all individuals possess inherent value.

    A mature Fi user is extremely in tune with the emotional needs of others and very supportive of and responsive to them. An immature Fi user is overly preoccupied with his own emotional needs and will act passive aggressively toward people who don't bend over backwards to cater to how he feels. Note that both Fe and Fi users often feel a strong sense of moral obligation to their loved ones; the difference is simply the source of this obligation. If it comes from an external/objective cultural standard, it's probably Fe--if it comes from a personal sense of moral responsibility that deliberately blocks out external influence, it's probably Fi.

    Fi doms are ethical perfectionists in the same way Ti doms are logical perfectionists. They seek a sense of internal balance and harmony with their surroundings that feels right in their own individual way. Note that introverted judgment (Ti/Fi) seeks depth and specificity while extroverted judgment (Te/Fe) seeks broad applicability. Ti wants to define exactly what is logically correct under an extremely specific set of circumstances that may never happen in the real world, while Te seeks widely applicable objective consensus that can apply in many different situations. Fi seeks to determine precisely what the user feels is morally right regardless of external application, while Fe seeks widely applicable, generalized ethical rules that can serve to govern entire groups. Ti/Fe = I think/We feel; Fi/Te = I feel/We think.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Intro to Function Theory + More Detailed Descriptions of Each Function Attitude - PersonalityCafe

    It's from SimulatedWorld. I don't know if he was the original author though.


    Fi, or introverted Feeling, is dominant for IxFP, secondary for ExFP, tertiary for IxTJ and inferior for ExTJ. Unlike Fe, Fi leads you to draw ethics purely from an internal, subjective source and finds Fe's collective approach to morality shallow and fake. Since ethics are purely a personal ideal in Fi's view, all personal feelings are sacred and allowing any outside views to affect them is patently unethical. Fi treats ethics in the same way Ti treats logic, in that it's something that requires no external context to understand and that should not be influenced or changed by any outside forces.

    The ability to express one's personal feelings and inner self freely and maintain a strong sense of personal uniqueness and individuality is of utmost importance to Fi. (It's also important to Ti, but for different reasons and in different contexts.) I have found that many Fi users dislike typology in general because they feel that "putting people into boxes" suppresses their sense of personal identity, and that people are too unique to be categorized so easily.

    Fi people are typically very good at picking up emotional vibes in the tone of voice and word choice of others. They often know what you're feeling even better than you do because they're aware of the subtle effects that different emotional states have on our behaviors and can pick up cues about how you're feeling that you didn't even intend to give off. For this reason strong Fi users are profoundly empathetic and tend to understand and identify with basic human needs on a profound level. If you were to criticize someone's behavior from an Fi standpoint, it would be in the form of, "What you are doing is hurting my feelings/violating my ethics/preventing me from fulfilling my basic human needs." Strong Fi users often feel a certain connection to the beauty of nature, animals, and life itself, simply "knowing" deep inside themselves that life is sacred and all individuals possess inherent value.

    A mature Fi user is extremely in tune with the emotional needs of others and very supportive of and responsive to them. An immature Fi user is overly preoccupied with his own emotional needs and will act passive aggressively toward people who don't bend over backwards to cater to how he feels. Note that both Fe and Fi users often feel a strong sense of moral obligation to their loved ones; the difference is simply the source of this obligation. If it comes from an external/objective cultural standard, it's probably Fe--if it comes from a personal sense of moral responsibility that deliberately blocks out external influence, it's probably Fi.

    Fi doms are ethical perfectionists in the same way Ti doms are logical perfectionists. They seek a sense of internal balance and harmony with their surroundings that feels right in their own individual way. Note that introverted judgment (Ti/Fi) seeks depth and specificity while extroverted judgment (Te/Fe) seeks broad applicability. Ti wants to define exactly what is logically correct under an extremely specific set of circumstances that may never happen in the real world, while Te seeks widely applicable objective consensus that can apply in many different situations. Fi seeks to determine precisely what the user feels is morally right regardless of external application, while Fe seeks widely applicable, generalized ethical rules that can serve to govern entire groups. Ti/Fe = I think/We feel; Fi/Te = I feel/We think.
    Pitseleh, thanks for the Fi description and link.

    Wow!!!! I've never so strongly identified with a description of Fi. I feel like I need to go smoke a cigarette after reading that. (And, I don't smoke.)


  8. #18
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    You know what is so weird? I sometimes test as an ENFP, then i'll retest and i'll be an ENFJ???? The more i look around on each forum and all the topics, i see characteristic's from each the ENFP and ENFJ... that both define ME
    It's quite confusing.... So, now i'm wondering.... What am i?
    "I Guess ii KiLLa-Kill Em.. I Guess ii AM the Villian.... I Park on the Curb, i'm on the Owner of the Buildin" NM

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Intro to Function Theory + More Detailed Descriptions of Each Function Attitude - PersonalityCafe

    It's from SimulatedWorld. I don't know if he was the original author though.


    Fi, or introverted Feeling, is dominant for IxFP, secondary for ExFP, tertiary for IxTJ and inferior for ExTJ. Unlike Fe, Fi leads you to draw ethics purely from an internal, subjective source and finds Fe's collective approach to morality shallow and fake. Since ethics are purely a personal ideal in Fi's view, all personal feelings are sacred and allowing any outside views to affect them is patently unethical. Fi treats ethics in the same way Ti treats logic, in that it's something that requires no external context to understand and that should not be influenced or changed by any outside forces.

    The ability to express one's personal feelings and inner self freely and maintain a strong sense of personal uniqueness and individuality is of utmost importance to Fi. (It's also important to Ti, but for different reasons and in different contexts.) I have found that many Fi users dislike typology in general because they feel that "putting people into boxes" suppresses their sense of personal identity, and that people are too unique to be categorized so easily.
    The beginning of this is awful and seems very much the biased opinion of the author. The pitting of Fi against Fe is soooo tiresome. I don't see Fe at odds with my Fi all the time or even most of the time. I rather enjoy many Fe-doms and find our values in-sync, even of coming from a different kind of reasoning. This paints Fi as close-minded, paranoid, stubborn and arbitrary. The bolded parts are especially bad and unfounded in reality (Fi-doms don't eat up MBTI? Since when? Isabel Myers & the large number of IxFP enthusiast on these boards would probably disagree).

    Personally, I don't see Fe as blindly adopting and adhering to social standards. I see them recognizing a need for unity in standards, and so there is emphasis on creating consensus and promoting harmonious interpersonal relationships. Not that Fi does not value these things, or that Fe does not value individuality, rather, they sort of start at opposite ends and often have a similar goal. In that sense, I find them complementary when at their best, and picking up where the other leaves off.

    Most of the ENFJs I know are as much "champions" of the outsiders as any ENFP. They are a little less likely to stir the pot openly, and a little more "smooth", but that means they accomplish more at times. I would say that ENFJs are better at working within the constraints of an external value system, whereas ENFPs will create a new path to keep in line with their internal value system and not cause conflict with the external (as imposing their values is often seen as something to avoid). Both change perspectives to avoid disharmony and both will adapt to reach a larger goal, but in a reverse way.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The beginning of this is awful and seems very much the biased opinion of the author. The pitting of Fi against Fe is soooo tiresome. I don't see Fe at odds with my Fi all the time or even most of the time. I rather enjoy many Fe-doms and find our values in-sync, even of coming from a different kind of reasoning. This paints Fi as close-minded, paranoid, stubborn and arbitrary. The bolded parts are especially bad and unfounded in reality (Fi-doms don't eat up MBTI? Since when? Isabel Myers & the large number of IxFP enthusiast on these boards would probably disagree).

    Personally, I don't see Fe as blindly adopting and adhering to social standards. I see them recognizing a need for unity in standards, and so there is emphasis on creating consensus and promoting harmonious interpersonal relationships. Not that Fi does not value these things, or that Fe does not value individuality, rather, they sort of start at opposite ends and often have a similar goal. In that sense, I find them complementary when at their best, and picking up where the other leaves off.

    Most of the ENFJs I know are as much "champions" of the outsiders as any ENFP. They are a little less likely to stir the pot openly, and a little more "smooth", but that means they accomplish more at times. I would say that ENFJs are better at working within the constraints of an external value system, whereas ENFPs will create a new path to keep in line with their internal value system and not cause conflict with the external (as imposing their values is often seen as something to avoid). Both change perspectives to avoid disharmony and both will adapt to reach a larger goal, but in a reverse way.
    I agree w/ you 100% actually. It was Simulated World's ideas... not mine. I just put it up because Rebe wanted it. I am starting to despise the limited view of Fe. I'm an ENFJ and I have a huge individualist streak (in some ways more than my ENFP sister) but only show it around those I trust.

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