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  1. #101
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Can we please put this thread to rest? This is a painful reminder of attributes I used to have that I've since grown out of; just because some 34 going on 12 year old ENFJ jacked you up in some way does not mean you can universally assign us all the guilt for a bad relationship choice, which by the way, you made too. Relationship requires two people.
    Love is the point.

  2. #102
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    If someone always razzes and bullies you a bit to appear tough even though they actually like you are they fake? Is someone who puts up a tough exterior of being in control of everything they feel ever fake? There are as many ways to be fake as there are ways of thinking and feeling about the world. It's not an ENFJ thing.

    Sometimes with Fe there is an element of "I sincerely want you to feel good in this situation, and my personal opinion towards you is irrelevant because I see you outside of the context of that opinion." That's not fake. It demonstrates a clear sense of personal boundaries and each person having a right to their own. It shows an ability to see the limits of personal opinion rather than assuming it has a global quality that is in any way objective and certain. Here is a sample of such an internal dialog "This person rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps it is because I have a prejudice or misperception. Maybe there is an explanation from that person's life and I would do the same in their shoes. Perhaps my opinion is limited and wrong. Maybe I need to learn something more. My bad feeling does not justify mistreating this person. It is only information about myself and the other person. It is something to learn from, not something to justify executing a punishment."

    I see fakeness as being "I want to appear that I desire to make you feel good, but actually am trying to make you feel badly."
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  3. #103
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    ^ THIS
    Love is the point.

  4. #104
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Sometimes with Fe there is an element of "I sincerely want you to feel good in this situation, and my personal opinion towards you is irrelevant because I see you outside of the context of that opinion." That's not fake.
    It's sincerely fake.

    It demonstrates a clear sense of personal boundaries and each person having a right to their own.
    To their own boundaries? But what are they going to do with your sincere desire that they feel good? Tell you to fuck off and care for some other puppy? Wouldn't a decent idea of "boundaries" include the idea that your desire has zip to do with me? Perhaps we want to be talking about reciprocity borders rather than boundaries.

    It shows an ability to see the limits of personal opinion rather than assuming it has a global quality that is in any way objective and certain. Here is a sample of such an internal dialog "This person rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps it is because I have a prejudice or misperception. Maybe there is an explanation from that person's life and I would do the same in their shoes. Perhaps my opinion is limited and wrong. Maybe I need to learn something more. My bad feeling does not justify mistreating this person. It is only information about myself and the other person. It is something to learn from, not something to justify executing a punishment."
    See, now that's weird. What if your opinion of me will tell me more than your wish for me to feel good? Indeed, what if your wish for me to feel good in fact blinds me to a very real source of understanding and development, namely the second perspective on who I am.

    Oh wad some power the giftie gie us
    To see ourselís as others see us!
    It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
    And foolish notion.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #105
    Glycerine
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    For me, I'll be formal w/ the people I dislike or are neutral about. However, I will be complimentary and friendly if I like you at least a little bit. Is that considered "fake"?

  6. #106
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    It sounds like do unto others what you want them to do unto you? Isnt this what we are all taught. I think they may simply get beat down because they try to uphold this to such a high extent and dont get what they do returned.

    Fe is fake in the same sense that Te is fake. Te can be used to logically manipulate just as much as Fe can be used to emotionally manipulate.
    To say Fe is fake is just silly to me. It seems completely misunderstood. And, Fluffywolf is right, ENFJs are often confused about where it all comes from. To see Fe as simply a projection of my values onto someone else is overrated. It works just as much in reverse. I consider other people's feelings well ahead of my own, and I don't do it because I am trying to be manipulative to get my needs met OR trying to be a martyr. I'm not going to get into some wind about how Fi seems far more selfish & rigid than kind & poetic to me, because I don't understand Fi, so I have no room to talk & I usually use it when I am stressed enough to feel selfish & rigid.

    My friend just rushed back in the door, can't find his hat for work. I have no conscious recollection of getting up from writing this to help him find it. It was only after I sat back down & he walked out the door with his hat that I realized I had gotten up & done "the right thing" because I wouldn't have really wanted to get up if I'd thought about it.

    Don't recognize any reward out of it, certainly wasn't thinking about values or judgments. But it wasn't all reflex either... I can think of a million times I haven't done something like that without thinking it through if I didn't care much about the person. I think maybe immature or disturbed ENFJs may be actively selfish in motives, but I don't even know what my motives are half the time.

    ENFJs aren't perfectly selfless & charming & devoted obviously. But I think we project something that makes people think we are certain we are getting there. Not because we want to be, we just know that if we thought about it we would decide how we try to behave is still what we want... but to think about it... to us, seems selfish & rigid. Our behavior is manipulative, not our thought processes. I've always seen my ability to "charm/talk someone into" anything as some dark curse that should never be used unless under the direst of circumstances. It doesn't feel good, & I try not to think about it. To me, if I over analyze my behavior, then it feels fake. Not to mention pretty much all my dark & tangled ENFJ confusion comes from trying to analyze and evaluate posts like this where my empathy runs in overdrive & I can't see anything but connections.

    Fe seems natural and guided to me. It is not fake. It is assumptive. I empathize, I have values, I need others, so I assume you do. And I'm right, you do... everyone has Fe to differing degrees. I don't automatically assume what you want is what I do, but I will naturally feel inclined to give you what I would want as a default until I know what really makes you happy. I'd much rather do that then give you nothing at all.
    ____________________________________________
    "In my soul rages a battle without victor. Between faith without proof and reason without charm." - Sully Prudhomme

  7. #107
    Senior Member hermeticdancer's Avatar
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    lol...

    to the OP...

    have you done your good deed today?

  8. #108
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    It's sincerely fake.

    To their own boundaries? But what are they going to do with your sincere desire that they feel good? Tell you to fuck off and care for some other puppy? Wouldn't a decent idea of "boundaries" include the idea that your desire has zip to do with me? Perhaps we want to be talking about reciprocity borders rather than boundaries.
    How could someone be sincerely fake? I don't see how you're reading toonia correctly there. If I'm nice to someone & that makes them feel barred in because they think I'm expecting something back, & then they act on it, that's their Fe... not mine. If they think I am being fake because they feel like they have to be, they are using their Fi to make that call by going with the values they identify with or using the "norm" values they've identified with to make that call with Fe. Same feelings, their feelings... real feelings.

    And do you realize how brutal an ENFJ is when they get blunt? Makes anyone far too defensive to care what I'm actually saying or whether or not it matters to them. If I tell it like it is, I'm a , if I try to show you I believe in you & try to encourage or support you even when I think you're being wrong, I'm fake & manipulative. There is too much intensity for middle ground without back bends... and they seldom work unless a person is close enough to see that I'm really trying.

    Also, I wanted to point out that whenever I felt overlooked, under appreciated or didn't think I was getting back enough of what I gave... it is always under stress during contemplation of Fi.

    And reading the original post again, the first sentence really gets me...

    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    I know ENFJs have a want to please people, which in turn rewards them with appreciation, but is this a genuine system?
    I have never felt "awarded" with appreciation. I can't even really recognize getting it. (Maybe if I knew other ENFJs who actually spelled it out in the form of verbal statements). I crave displays of appreciation or affirmation of feelings because my Fe needs something to work with, and it keeps my judging in check. If I don't get those, I can get stressed out & feel like I can't function, become less extroverted because I don't know where my Fe is going & my intuition gets tangled up in judging. Then I turn to Fi... but it is during extreme stress and works poorly. I decide it doesn't matter why I feel unappreciated, I feel like I am entitled to these displays because I deserve them. This is the only time I actually pay attention to what I get from others... and once someone is kind to me it helps me through it I recognize where I was being selfish & unfairly judgmental when I'm feeling better.

    Originally Posted by toast
    but if there is one thing I am certain about with every ENFJ I've known its that we are highly critical of our motives with others. That is likely the reason we are so eaten up by criticism. Case in point.
    Sorry I didn't see this sooner.
    Well, its an Fe thing. I come on intense, overbearing, overly judgmental, too confident or too needy, too blunt or too kind. People told me all throughout my childhood that many of my problems with people came from this... as I grew up I realized how this was true & began trying to use my empathy to figure out ways to minimize how aggressive my Fe comes out. I learned to hold my tongue when I knew it wasn't the best time, be supportive to others when I could feel they were upset by me, just trim it all up a little. The trouble with that is I have virtually no access to Fi... so I have no idea what "feels right to me" in an intangible way. So it takes a huge amount of evaluation and self-judging to come up with what compromises are "okay" with me. As in, how much I can change my natural behavior to have good relationships with others.

    I do this on moral issues and interpersonal issues. Though my actions & words are impulsive, they are usually based on a system that I became comfortable with after it was scrutinized over a great deal. So when someone says something critical... I have either thought of it and ruled it out... or I failed to think of it & now feel like the whole system is in jeopardy. I never ever think anyone is really totally wrong. I see some connection of truth in everything. So criticism may help me in the long run, but its extremely hard to deal with because it scatters everything until I find all the connections that criticism is attached to & put it back together again. Whether I ultimately agree with you or not, I have to weigh it out and its that grueling process.

    What's weird is sometimes I really don't care about criticism when it is coming from someone I don't know, like or respect. It is what made me want to say something to the comment above by Kalach because I can still feel like being nice to those people even when their opinions don't matter enough to get through.
    ____________________________________________
    "In my soul rages a battle without victor. Between faith without proof and reason without charm." - Sully Prudhomme

  9. #109
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    How could someone be sincerely fake?
    "I don't like doing this, but I'll put on a smile and do it anyway because really it doesn't matter what I like, I know it'll be what she likes, and when she's happy, then we'll be happy together, and that's what I like."

    Which, I hope, is way more extreme than anyone is truly suggesting.

    But I've seen it happen. And when a J does it, it's awful, because it's so clear they're bending themselves out of shape.

    So... "sincerely fake": sincerely out of touch with what's inside.

    And I would argue that no one is sufficiently altruistic that what's inside them genuinely does not make a difference to who they are and what they want when they are with other people. No one is empty enough inside that they're all and only about the other person. And people who don't recognise that their inside qualities determine some parts of their relationships with others are, well--dangerous.

    Naturally I speak from an Fi perspective. But I think at least Ti must play some similar role for ENFJs. Certainly Ni and its development influences what the person does and how mellow they can be.

    I don't see how you're reading toonia correctly there. If I'm nice to someone & that makes them feel barred in because they think I'm expecting something back, & then they act on it, that's their Fe... not mine. If they think I am being fake because they feel like they have to be, they are using their Fi to make that call by going with the values they identify with or using the "norm" values they've identified with to make that call with Fe. Same feelings, their feelings... real feelings.
    Yeah. And oddly enough I'm sensitive to it. Watching NFJs hang out their feelings and me sitting there knowing quite clearly that I do not have what it takes to reciprocate... nothing available to balance their movement toward or away from me. They're deaf to the only answer I have, to speak out the mechanism at work.

    (And as an Fi user, tertiary at that, my best reply in the end is "Don't do that to me, do it to yourself, dammit.")

    And do you realize how brutal an ENFJ is when they get blunt?
    I'm not sure. IRL I've had an ENFJ decide to go for the strike, the sudden tidal wave punch, the one that says "Here's where I send you to hell because I'm taking something you hold and telling you what it really is". But I don't know if she pulled out all the stops. I couldn't for the life of me work out if she was speaking for effect or for truth. (I knew truth was a part of it, but I got the strong impression effect was the bigger part.) It was fairly brutal and done with a smile. Brutal enough for me to understand that ways were being parted. And yet they weren't. (So I'm going with the brutality residing in the ongoing nature of the contact, not the blunt outbursts--blunt outbursts are preferable, really.)

    Makes anyone far too defensive to care what I'm actually saying or whether or not it matters to them. If I tell it like it is, I'm a , if I try to show you I believe in you & try to encourage or support you even when I think you're being wrong, I'm fake & manipulative. There is too much intensity for middle ground without back bends... and they seldom work unless a person is close enough to see that I'm really trying.
    See, now again with the weird. How wrong am I to think that if someone knows they're intense, they can channel it, focus it, target it... use it at the right time on the right subject? It always has to be the atom bomb? Never the shotgun, or just a knife under the ribs?




    Ooops, had an unfortunate thought: about the last thing I'd want were I doing some project management (aka Te) is for someone to spend too much time saying, but what do you really feel inside (aka Fi). At some point, you just gotta go with the outside focus.

    Ah, what the hell, you guys can have your outward focus too.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  10. #110
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unkindloving View Post
    ...
    Perhaps they appear fake because they are trying too hard to please others and gain their own benefit, as well, without realizing how difficult it is to maintain both at once. As far as i know, the middle-ground is hard for ENFJs to find, but we have the ability to be so outwardly focused to see that in ourselves. It would cause a selfish-seeming issue.
    Sig Heil
    Awww dang. +1. I totally missed this post and the OP post on the title being more for show or I wouldn't have gone on & on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So... "sincerely fake": sincerely out of touch with what's inside.
    Yeah. If you basically live & think and feel from the inside out, its not as easy as that. I would say I'm pretty out of touch with what's inside... I mean what exactly am I going to grab onto? My emotions can be so strong that it is hard to navigate through them without other people. I definitely know myself better than anyone else, but my feelings override everything quite often & they are irrational, intangible & completely clash with my judgments a lot of the time, unless those judgments involve others, then its easier to figure out what I want to do, but it seldom involves what I would consider "me." Its just comfortable & less confusing, so I do it.

    Yeah. And oddly enough I'm sensitive to it. Watching NFJs hang out their feelings and me sitting there knowing quite clearly that I do not have what it takes to reciprocate... nothing available to balance their movement toward or away from me. They're deaf to the only answer I have, to speak out the mechanism at work.
    I get you on that... I'm with an ISTP so I have to feel for you on that one. Its hard to imagine what it'd be like from your perspective though.
    ____________________________________________
    "In my soul rages a battle without victor. Between faith without proof and reason without charm." - Sully Prudhomme

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