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  1. #411
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Hmmm... it's true that he's not a strategist the way INTJs usually are, but he does seem to be more in tune with the more philosophical and abstract elements of Ni. Notice for example his first words in the sorcerer's stone -- essentially him rambling about how Potions is too arcane and abstract a discipline for any of them. As for the plan itself, note that the initial phases of said plan were his own idea.
    I disagree that Snape is not a strategist. We don't see much of this side, since the books are written almost entirely from Harry's perspective, I would suspect he is significantly involved in strategy when it comes to his double-agent role, as well as protecting the school and Harry in particular. Moreover, his spell and potions innovations seem more NT-like. He felt no compulsion, even as a boy, to follow the instructions. Snape can be a stickler for the rules, but not because he sees value in obeying them; they are just another tool he can use to reach his ends. Finally, Snape is not necessarily what one would consider a "healthy" INTJ (at the risk of using this much-debated term). His background and duties in the fight against Voldemort put him in situations that force him to act out-of-type quite often just to survive. Thus, his actions may not always appear typical.

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    But gah... I don't wanna get stuck with the do-gooders... actuallly maybe I should be put in Slytherin... but I'm not quite fond of snakes, either. Too phallic. They offend my lesbian sensibilities... everything in Harry Potter is phallic, wands, broomsticks... what was I saying? (/total P/Ne moment)
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  2. #412
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I disagree that Snape is not a strategist. We don't see much of this side, since the books are written almost entirely from Harry's perspective, I would suspect he is significantly involved in strategy when it comes to his double-agent role, as well as protecting the school and Harry in particular. Moreover, his spell and potions innovations seem more NT-like. He felt no compulsion, even as a boy, to follow the instructions. Snape can be a stickler for the rules, but not because he sees value in obeying them; they are just another tool he can use to reach his ends. Finally, Snape is not necessarily what one would consider a "healthy" INTJ (at the risk of using this much-debated term). His background and duties in the fight against Voldemort put him in situations that force him to act out-of-type quite often just to survive. Thus, his actions may not always appear typical.
    This seems like some serious rationalizing. Why do you need to see him as INTJ so badly that you're willing to entirely invent that he strategized off-page? And that's some serious prejudice you have against sensors if you believe that they're less likely to be innovative in a subject matter of their interest than intuitives.
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  3. #413
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Why is it necessary to prove Snape a strategist to prove him an N? As I said before, he's very abstract.
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  4. #414
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    I'd count strategist as an NJ indicator. But, like Aleksei said, there's more to Snape's N than only strategy. Take this, for example.

    "The dark arts are many, varied, ever-changing and eternal. Fighting them is like fighting a many-headed monster, which, each time a neck is severed, sprouts a head even fiercer and cleverer than before. You are fighting that which is unfixed, mutating, indestructible." (Half-blood prince)

    Just compare that to Lupin's: "There's a boggart in this cupboard."
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  5. #415
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This seems like some serious rationalizing. Why do you need to see him as INTJ so badly that you're willing to entirely invent that he strategized off-page? And that's some serious prejudice you have against sensors if you believe that they're less likely to be innovative in a subject matter of their interest than intuitives.
    Since Snape is a fictional character, what we know about him is strongly colored by the perspective of the books in which he appears. Many discussions of Snape, on forums, fansites, and elsewhere, have hinged on the fact that we see him primarily through Harry's eyes, in situations that Harry will be aware of. Wondering what he is doing the rest of the time is not rationalizing, but speculation. I have seen arguments that he is ISTJ before, some better stated than others. I do not "need" to see Snape as an INTJ, I simply do, perhaps because I am one, and much about him resonates with me in a way that more definitively ISTJ characters (and real people) do not. I summarized a few of my reasons, as those who see him as other types have done.

    As for sensors and innovation, you may call it prejudice if you wish, but there is nothing "pre" about it. In my experience of real humans, and I work with many STJs and some STPs, they do not innovate in the same ways as the NTs and even NFs. They are extraordinarily skilled, have great attention to detail and often encyclopedic knowledge of their field, and I would trust them with my life. Each of us contributes different gifts to the workplace and elsewhere, otherwise we would all be the same.

  6. #416
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Since Snape is a fictional character, what we know about him is strongly colored by the perspective of the books in which he appears. Many discussions of Snape, on forums, fansites, and elsewhere, have hinged on the fact that we see him primarily through Harry's eyes, in situations that Harry will be aware of. Wondering what he is doing the rest of the time is not rationalizing, but speculation. I have seen arguments that he is ISTJ before, some better stated than others. I do not "need" to see Snape as an INTJ, I simply do, perhaps because I am one, and much about him resonates with me in a way that more definitively ISTJ characters (and real people) do not. I summarized a few of my reasons, as those who see him as other types have done.
    Do you really think this matters? A lot of fictional characters resonate with me (that's often the point of writing appealing characters), but that is no proof that they're even anywhere near my same type. Often they are not at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    As for sensors and innovation, you may call it prejudice if you wish, but there is nothing "pre" about it. In my experience of real humans, and I work with many STJs and some STPs, they do not innovate in the same ways as the NTs and even NFs. They are extraordinarily skilled, have great attention to detail and often encyclopedic knowledge of their field, and I would trust them with my life. Each of us contributes different gifts to the workplace and elsewhere, otherwise we would all be the same.
    Pray tell, how does N innovation differ from S innovation?
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  7. #417
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    I notice you're ignoring everyone but Coriolis...
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  8. #418
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Why is it necessary to prove Snape a strategist to prove him an N? As I said before, he's very abstract.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    I'd count strategist as an NJ indicator. But, like Aleksei said, there's more to Snape's N than only strategy. Take this, for example.

    "The dark arts are many, varied, ever-changing and eternal. Fighting them is like fighting a many-headed monster, which, each time a neck is severed, sprouts a head even fiercer and cleverer than before. You are fighting that which is unfixed, mutating, indestructible." (Half-blood prince)

    Just compare that to Lupin's: "There's a boggart in this cupboard."
    Strategy would be a sign of future thinking. Future thinking would be a sign of Ni. A sign of Ni would make me think INTJ rather than ISTJ for Snape. Get it?

    And are you guys really trying to say that he uses "abstract" language, therefore he must be an N?

    That example that you gave is Snape trying to make potions sound all awesome, so he's using that language for rhetorical effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
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  9. #419
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Strategy would be a sign of future thinking. Future thinking would be a sign of Ni. A sign of Ni would make me think INTJ rather than ISTJ for Snape. Get it?

    And are you guys really trying to say that he uses "abstract" language, therefore he must be an N?
    He was using abstruse, cryptical Ni language. Si-doms are unlikely to do that.

    That example that you gave is Snape trying to make potions sound all awesome, so he's using that language for rhetorical effect.
    And what Sensor uses super-abstract language for rhetorical effect? They themselves, having a Sensing perspective, see the world through the lens of the literal, so they'd use the literal to attract people.
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  10. #420
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    He was using abstruse, cryptical Ni language. Si-doms are unlikely to do that.

    And what Sensor uses super-abstract language for rhetorical effect? They themselves, having a Sensing perspective, see the world through the lens of the literal, so they'd use the literal to attract people.
    ...any sensor worth his or her salt at persuasion (or even just writing in general.)

    And "seeing through the lens of the literal" is not what it means to be a person who prefers sensing.

    Even if it were, that alone would not be enough to make me think INTJ over ISTJ for Snape. It seems like you're reaching.
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