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If Christians Were Being Lied To, Would We/They Know It?

ilikeitlikethat

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Think, if somebody really did mean Christians harm and there was such a thing as sin, then should lies told not be alarm bells warning of a wolf in sheep's clothing?
In our hearts, we know where babies comes from and how they get there, we also know why people stay dead.
Would serious lies on this natural level be a tell tale sign of a foe?

The Virgin Birth.
Resurrection Beyond the Grave.
"The Devil is the father of all lies."

If these were found to all be false yet so in the face of the believer, wouldn't that be some sinister form of assault against Christians on a spiritual level if they've got their whole universe turned upside down by a book? I'm not suggesting to believers to not believe; but I don't want believers following lies to interpret just on an off chance that it's rooted in an evil working against us/them.
 

Typh0n

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To the question as to whether Christianity (or any other after-death belief system) is true, we have to wait till it's too late, that is until we are dead.

The alternative to waiting is Pascal's Wager, but I stand on the principle that important life decisions should not be taken on fear. Fear of going to hell seems like the wrong reason to be a Christian.
 

wool

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To the question as to whether Christianity (or any other after-death belief system) is true, we have to wait till it's too late, that is until we are dead.

The alternative to waiting is Pascal's Wager, but I stand on the principle that important life decisions should not be taken on fear. Fear of going to hell seems like the wrong reason to be a Christian.

According to the Bible, both the wicked, and the righteous, experience a "sleep" when they die. When Jesus returns, the righteous (those who went to the grave with Christ) will be resurrected and taken up to heaven. The dead wicked will be resurrected too, before the final battle between satan and God.

Hell, the place, isn't even Biblical. It's true, the devil invented the lie that hell is a place, where he will rule over the souls of the wicked and torture them for eternity. God would never allow such a thing to happen. The devil is currently on the earth right now, walking to and fro, and is destined to be thrown into a lake of fire, along with the angels who sided with him, and the souls of the wicked.

The punishment for souls who choose to serve the devil, rather than God, will be a final death, which is the "eternal punishment". It will be as if they never existed, forever.
 

Mole

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According to the Bible, both the wicked, and the righteous, experience a "sleep" when they die. When Jesus returns, the righteous (those who went to the grave with Christ) will be resurrected and taken up to heaven. The dead wicked will be resurrected too, before the final battle between satan and God.

Hell, the place, isn't even Biblical. It's true, the devil invented the lie that hell is a place, where he will rule over the souls of the wicked and torture them for eternity. God would never allow such a thing to happen. The devil is currently on the earth right now, walking to and fro, and is destined to be thrown into a lake of fire, along with the angels who sided with him, and the souls of the wicked.

The punishment for souls who choose to serve the devil, rather than God, will be a final death, which is the "eternal punishment". It will be as if they never existed, forever.

The question is not whether the supernatural is true of false, but the question is how likely is the supernatural?

On one hand each religion gives a different account of the supernatural, and on the other hand there is no evidence for the existence of any form of the supernatural. So we can reasonably conclude the chance of any particular supernatural is close to zero.
 

thepink-cloakedninja

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If these were found to be false, it would definitely turn my world upside down. xD I'd probably survive though and then become a vegetarian. *nods*
 

wool

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The question is not whether the supernatural is true of false, but the question is how likely is the supernatural?

On one hand each religion gives a different account of the supernatural, and on the other hand there is no evidence for the existence of any form of the supernatural. So we can reasonably conclude the chance of any particular supernatural is close to zero.

You are free to believe whatever you choose. For me, it doesn't matter that God is beyond the understanding of science.
 

ceecee

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Think, if somebody really did mean Christians harm and there was such a thing as sin, then should lies told not be alarm bells warning of a wolf in sheep's clothing?
In our hearts, we know where babies comes from and how they get there, we also know why people stay dead.
Would serious lies on this natural level be a tell tale sign of a foe?

The Virgin Birth.
Resurrection Beyond the Grave.
"The Devil is the father of all lies."

If these were found to all be false yet so in the face of the believer, wouldn't that be some sinister form of assault against Christians on a spiritual level if they've got their whole universe turned upside down by a book? I'm not suggesting to believers to not believe; but I don't want believers following lies to interpret just on an off chance that it's rooted in an evil working against us/them.

You can't use a true/false argument with believers. They don't care if they're following lies (according to you) or not.
 

OrangeAppled

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It's a framework for understanding the spiritual aspect of reality. Certain details or terminology people get stuck on don't matter so much. The motivation is not to get to heaven and avoid hell (if you have a mature spirituality). It's being in harmony with the spiritual reality, for your benefit and the benefit of others. It's a relationship with God - the force that created reality.

I'm not suggesting all religions are good or equal or say the same thing; some are certainly better than others, as far as the spiritual insight and way of teaching/encouraging others to pay attention to their spiritual need. Most religions warn about false teachings, incidentally, for just the reason the OP mentions. False beliefs can be damaging to spirituality.

There are countless Christian religions with an enormous variation in beliefs. So which one do you refer to? I admit I find it annoying when people address "Christians" like it's a homogeneous group of people. Just as all religions are not equal, neither are all forms of Christianity, IMO.

My understanding is that "sin" is being out of harmony with the spiritual reality (and in some cases, the physical reality too). It's breaking a spiritual law of the universe, and there will be inevitable consequences, much as breaking a physical law results in consequences. These can be immediate consequences or stuff that builds up over time and does long-term damage (either on an individual or social level). Hell is not the consequence of sin. For people who believe in it (I don't believe in hellfire), hell is the consequence of an unrepentant attitude that signals rejection of God and essentially, an existence within the reality he created. We don't choose all sin, but we can and do choose permanent alienation from God.

You might be surprised at how many Christians don't believe in hellfire or an immediate afterlife. Even if they use the term "hell", it means something more like a permanent alienation from God.

Satan means "opposer" (if I recall correctly). Personally, I think it's useful to understand these forces as "active personalities" and not just abstractions. But that aside, Satan is basically a force opposing the spiritual reality. The lie is that we are physical beings ONLY (animals) and that we can be our own gods, alienated from The God (ie deciding good/bad for ourselves, not listening to the Creator). It's a lie because it denies the spiritual reality.

You don't have to die to find this out (and really, given the beliefs of many Christians, dying wouldn't give you any insight at all). You can experience being in harmony or opposed to the spiritual reality NOW.

In many Christian frameworks, when you operate in harmony with the spirit of God, then you manifest certain qualities - love, peace, joy, etc. When you oppose the spirit, then you manifest fleshy ("animalistic") qualities; these are often actions which indulge in physical instincts to a degree that they become harmful to yourself and others. Faith also comes into play, which partly means perceiving a pattern of how the spirit manifested before (in your life and for others), thus setting a precedent. It's not blind belief. What has to be developed is an ability to perceive, and much of religious framework is getting people to "see" spiritually and not just physically.

One more tangent - recently I was discussing Kierkegaard's distinction between the ethical and religious stages. Because of the change in connotations nowadays, I'd call ethical something closer to "religious" and religious "spiritual". Kierkegaard describes the ethical stage as a preoccupation with social rules that keep behaviors in check, which is what many think religion is for. They see it as a set of rules and beliefs one follows for particular outcomes. These people are not truly religious in a spiritual sense; they aren't mature yet. A fair amount of people do get stuck there. In contrast, the religious stage is about a personal relationship with God, and a spiritual maturity to the point of not needing the black and white rules of the ethical stage. It's a DYNAMIC. It's about harmonizing with an active force in reality - not just a force, but THE ultimate force. He basically describes what Jesus said in a far simpler way.

In short, the truth of it manifests through you right now.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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To the question as to whether Christianity (or any other after-death belief system) is true, we have to wait till it's too late, that is until we are dead.

The alternative to waiting is Pascal's Wager, but I stand on the principle that important life decisions should not be taken on fear. Fear of going to hell seems like the wrong reason to be a Christian.

I agree. I also think if you speak to most Christians, they would agree as well and depending upon how in depth their study is, would say that fear is not what keeps them believing. I cannot speak for all, however as certain sects do promote a fire and brimstone approach.

Jude 1:23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.

Essentially (and open to interpretation) some will come to God through fear. Fear of the unknown, death? Whatever it is, we have these universally and they cause us to question. That impetus to seek God could come from fear. Some will come from mercy/love.

If you have spoken to believers, many have varied stories of origin, if you will. But from my experiences? Even if a person is motivated by fear in seeking God, they normally don't stay there as with study comes a more balanced approach to God. Mercy, love, etc.

It's impossible to avoid this aspect if one personally invests in reading and understanding.

Anyway, I'm not here to debate. I did want to expand on this as I think it (can be) an overly simplistic view of what keeps someone a Christian.

Although you may be right for some. No doubt. Those Christians generally don't remain Christians very long. They leave the church. Become atheists or drift, etc. Or those Christians remain but they stay in the same dogmatic shoes. Never growing.

I grew up with F&B approach. It didn't help and I drifted for many years. What brought me back was love. Forgiveness, grace. These tenets of the faith that was glossed over for years. It wasn't until I did my own searching that I came back with a completely different view of God.

Anyway. That's that. Carry on.
 

ilikeitlikethat

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If Leviticus can say it's not natural to be homosexual, why isn't virgin birth & resurrection treated like 'bum chumming'?
 

onemoretime

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Lies are not the same as myths. Lies are falsehoods told to mislead the listener. Myths are stories told to point the listener in the direction of knowledge or wisdom that is not immediately perceptible. The historical truth of the myth is irrelevant to its purpose.

It doesn't matter if Jesus was actually born of a virgin - that bit of the story is there to suggest to the reader that the character is of particular spiritual importance. It doesn't matter if there is an actual resurrection - it gives people needed tools to make peace with the inevitable deaths of themselves and their loved ones, this being the most important psychological process of our lifetimes as conscious beings. It doesn't matter if the Devil exists or not - it gives people a means of understanding evil, and giving the more mature a way to recognize and control their own aggressive, anti-social impulses.

People with great spiritual wisdom come to understand these things - this is why they speak in parables. They're speaking a language that touches the unconscious.
 

ilikeitlikethat

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Lies are not the same as myths. Lies are falsehoods told to mislead the listener. Myths are stories told to point the listener in the direction of knowledge or wisdom that is not immediately perceptible. The historical truth of the myth is irrelevant to its purpose.

It doesn't matter if Jesus was actually born of a virgin - that bit of the story is there to suggest to the reader that the character is of particular spiritual importance. It doesn't matter if there is an actual resurrection - it gives people needed tools to make peace with the inevitable deaths of themselves and their loved ones, this being the most important psychological process of our lifetimes as conscious beings. It doesn't matter if the Devil exists or not - it gives people a means of understanding evil, and giving the more mature a way to recognize and control their own aggressive, anti-social impulses.

People with great spiritual wisdom come to understand these things - this is why they speak in parables. They're speaking a language that touches the unconscious.

If the Devil is the father of all lies yet we're told the biggest whoppers ever against nature, isn't that then evil?
 

onemoretime

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If the Devil is the father of all lies yet we're told the biggest whoppers ever against nature, isn't that then evil?

No. Don't look at the literal meaning of the story - that's an extremely Protestant thing to do (and the danger that the Catholic Church was afraid of before and after the Reformation). Look at the purpose of the story. Use that Ne and engage with it in the abstract.
 

ilikeitlikethat

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What exactly are you asking in this post?
Open your eyes.

It is our basic fundamental natural instinct to know that virgin birth and life after death isn't possible.

So to believe in what is the mother of all lies could have evil origins. That is to say; Who says God isn't evil lying to trick and damn souls/lives?

To take what we know to be true, and lie about it and have it be believed could be the work of evil could it not?
 

wool

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Open your eyes.

2 Corinthians 4:17-18
17For our light and temporary affliction is producing for us an eternal glory that far outweighs our troubles. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

2 Corinthians 5:7
We walk by faith, not by sight.
 

onemoretime

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It is our basic fundamental natural instinct to know that virgin birth and life after death isn't possible.

You can't say that. You can only say that you have never seen this happen, nor does it seem possible given the way the universe has been observed to function.
 

ilikeitlikethat

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2 Corinthians 4:17-18
17For our light and temporary affliction is producing for us an eternal glory that far outweighs our troubles. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

2 Corinthians 5:7
We walk by faith, not by sight.

John 8:44
The devil is the father of all lies.


What about the 2 knights riddle, where there are 2 knights, and 2 doors, 1 door leads to safety and the other leads to peril.
One knight can only lie, the other can only speak truth.
If the liar says the other is a lie, do you trust it?

What if God is the liar all along?
 

ilikeitlikethat

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You can't say that. You can only say that you have never seen this happen, nor does it seem possible given the way the universe has been observed to function.

That is a natural truth.
So to believe in otherwise would be to believe in a fundamental lie, no?
and if you were to be lied to/tricked, wouldn't that be a force working against you?
 
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