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  1. #711
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    God is only plausible to those critical faculties have been put to sleep in a hypnotic trance.

    This is charming in children who also find Santa and fairies to be plausible, but it is risible in a grown up.
    When Victor speaks such harsh words, they must convey the truth.

  2. #712
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwn86 View Post
    Anyways, according to God, His existence already is tangible and obvious, and if we don't recognize it then we are looking but not seeing, so to speak.
    Then I daresay that God is quite mistaken. Still, perhaps you can help me: what "tangible and obvious" evidence of God's existence am I overlooking?

  3. #713
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Cool The Heretic

    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    Then I daresay that God is quite mistaken. Still, perhaps you can help me: what "tangible and obvious" evidence of God's existence am I overlooking?
    At my University there is a Faculty of Theology but it produces no experimental evidence at all - absolutely none. In other words the Faculty of Theology produces no emprical evidence.

    So I asked them why not start a Faculty of Astrology, it would be very popular, the fees would be acceptable, and there would be no need for experimental evidence, just like the Faculty of Theology. But they just looked at me like I was a heretic.

  4. #714
    Senior Member FunnyDigestion's Avatar
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    Ah... of course this thread has to exist. Paraphrasing a misunderstood Voltaire quote, If God didn't exist it would be necessary to invent him in order to argue about whether or not he exists.

    Think of how many horrific diseases could be cured by now if only certain extraordinarily intelligent people cared less about arguing about religion.

  5. #715
    Member ahriman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    1. What you say is this: "I do not know, therefore an idea, for whose truth there is no hint, is as probable as a theory for whose truth there is at least a mathematical explanation." I do not agree. I refuse to believe that you really find the idea of the big bang and the idea of an almighty 'man in the cloud' equally far-fetched an explanation for the beginning of the universe. The old man is dripping with anthropomorphism. You are serious?


    2. Your god, in fact every god, reminds me a lot of luminiferous aether. How do you like this proof of god's existence?

    1. Yes. Primarily because it doesn't explain how non-existence gives birth to existence. It is a mathematical equation not an observation. Furthermore there is no such thing as a mathematical proof of any scientific theory. Mathematicians prove theorems using rules of logic. Scientific theories are based on observation and we are observing this magnificent system from within with an imperfect mind. Since we are unable to objectively observe outside the system it is probably impossible to truly understand it's true nature. The result of this: M-theory, ether theory, many worlds theory, super symmetric flipped SU(5) theory and so on, all of which are mathematically possible yet none is conclusive. So how does mathematics make any explanation on the theory the universe and it's function correct? It doesn't, at least not at this point in our observation of the universe.

    2. It is not "my God". I am speaking of an abstract and impersonal God and I use the word "God" allegorically not literally. As I said there is no "proof" of anything and that includes God. Especially the type of God your insinuating I believe in.
    Knowledge is power. Sanity is for the weak.

  6. #716
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahriman View Post
    1. Yes. Primarily because it doesn't explain how non-existence gives birth to existence. It is a mathematical equation not an observation. Furthermore there is no such thing as a mathematical proof of any scientific theory. Mathematicians prove theorems using rules of logic. Scientific theories are based on observation and we are observing this magnificent system from within with an imperfect mind. Since we are unable to objectively observe outside the system it is probably impossible to truly understand it's true nature. The result of this: M-theory, ether theory, many worlds theory, super symmetric flipped SU(5) theory and so on, all of which are mathematically possible yet none is conclusive. So how does mathematics make any explanation on the theory the universe and it's function correct? It doesn't, at least not at this point in our observation of the universe.
    If all theories concerning the beginning of the universe are equally plausible to you, then you can stop thinking about it altogether. Personally, I believe in the Great Green Arkleseizure.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahriman View Post
    2. It is not "my God". I am speaking of an abstract and impersonal God and I use the word "God" allegorically not literally. As I said there is no "proof" of anything and that includes God. Especially the type of God your insinuating I believe in.
    I insinuate you believe in the god (an abstract and impersonal god) that you described. I find it appropriate to call it 'your god' because its definition certainly differs from the standard. But since you think that the 'man in the cloud' theory is also plausible, it would be fair to insinuate that as well.

    You have not read the other thread, have you?

  7. #717
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahriman View Post
    I don't like creating labels for my beliefs but I guess you could say I'm somewhat akin to a apathetic agnostic, that is I believe there is no evidence for or against the existence of a god of any type yet if a God does exist it is probably detached from humanity and it's needs. I don't believe in a God in a religious sense which some might find hard to understand, I believe in the possibility of a an impersonal God. To answer the thread I don't believe a christian God exists. We created that God and gave it human qualities i.e love, hate, judgement, retribution e.t.c. The Christian God is just an omnipotent, immortal version of us. That's all I have to say.
    So then, why "god"? What is "god"? Why and how did you arrive at ascribing this word, "god", to that which you do not know? If you do not know, then where are your possibilities of this "god" stemming from (it must be from some idea/concept/fact that you do know)? What basis are you starting from? And, why?

  8. #718
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Let us reason further -

    I understand your God is called Jesus. And I understand Jesus thought that it was demons that caused disease, and Jesus did not think it is germs that caused disease. And Jesus even cast out demons. And futher Jesus never said one word against institutional slavery.

    So let us ask ourselves -

    Is it plausible that such an ignorant and immoral person is God?

    Jesus did not think it is germs that caused disease.
    I can invalidate your assertion by citing Leviticus chapter thirteen where God imposes unto the Isrealites the many laws which exclusively deal with the segregation of contagious diseases. Therein, it is explicitly mentioned multiple times that individuals infected with leprosy were to be quarantined and forbidden to be exposed to the public. Keep in mind that the book of Leviticus was written between 1440 and 1400 B.C, when germs and contagious diseases were incomprehensible phenomenons.

    "The laws against leprosy in Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of a sanitary legislation" - Arturo Castiglioni, A History of Medicine (p.71)


    The law commanding the burying of excrement and filth (for the purpose of abating disease) was given by Deuteronomy 23:12-13 where God told Moses "Thou shalt have a place also. without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad: and thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee"

    Castiglioni further eloborates on Deut. 23:12-13 by emphasizing that "The regulations in Deuteronomy as to how soldiers should prevent the danger of infection coming from their excrement by covering it with earth constitute a most important document of sanitary legislation ..." (A History of Medicine, p. 70).


    The contributing causes of heart disease encompass an improper diet, obesity, smoking, a lack of exercise and excessive stress.

    In Phil. 4:5 the Bible clearly recommends "moderation" in all things and a balanced life. Prov. 23:20-21 condemns gluttony and overeating.

    I Timothy 4:8 advocates for the importance of regular exercise and moderately throughout our lives, specifically - it expresses that bodily exercise profits "for a little while." Proverbs 15:13; 17:22; Psalms 119:165; Matthew 11:28-30; John 14:27; Philippians 4:7 commands us to avoid stress, anxieties, and worries which can trigger heart attacks.

    Perhaps Leviticus 7:23 (which states "Ye shall eat no manner of fat, of ox, or of sheep, or of goat," commands the Isrealites to abstain from the excessive consumption of cholesterol which has been proven to be an agent of atherosclerosis and heart disease.

    Dr. Paul Dudley further elaborates: "It is conceivable that a few years from now we medical men may repeat to the citizens of the United States of America the advice that Moses was asked by God to present to the children of Israel 3,000 years ago."


    Is it plausible that such an ignorant and immoral person is God?
    Since you have interjected with an objection to God's ideology of health and medicine, I have entertained your thesis with a few cherry picked verses from the Bible and Torrah that refer exclusively to your inquiry.

    You have acknowledged the many health principles outlined in the Bible throughout your life, but still refuse to acknowledge the source.

    In any scientific analysis, a single odd detail can lead to a whole new line of inquiry. Maybe the command to quarantine individuals with leprosy would have been silly and illogical at that time. Only after recent medical discoveries have we arrived at the verdict that the foregoing was a valid remedy to prevent the mass transmission of disease. Therefore, explain to me how in 1400 B.C civilization had instituted conventional disease control measures in the complete absence of the medical understanding of germs and contagious diseases.

    The Torah is filled with laws and ordinances that can be reconciled with modern day medicine. Let me know if you need me to vindicate further, and I'll provide you with more examples.

    You must invalidate the credibility of those laws (including those formerly illustrated) to claim that God "did not think it is germs that caused disease."

    Wandering from the topic of medicine, the Torah and Bible are also the precedents for our modern day justice system. The most important precept of our legal system is based on the familiar Exodus 21:24 clause - "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot"

    The modern-day legal translation would be lex talionis, or the law of talion.

    Obviously you are an ignorant airhead if you think this was a literal command. It was interpreted by the ancient Jewish courts by mandating monetary compensation in tort cases. Lex talionis was a monetary compensation schedule consisting of payment for property damage, unwarranted infliction of pain, incapacitation, and mental anguish.

    It is reasonable to assume that modern legal codes are predicated on Exodus 21:24; specifically, workers compensation legislation, common law, and the remedies in tort law.

    We can get into a long discussion about the credibility of the Bible and the Torah, but your beliefs are predicated on so many false premises that it would take a decade of vindication to ignite that spark of intellectual revival in your biased mind.
    got chaos?

  9. #719
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Well, I'm convinced. "The poo is smelly, so bury it" is a conclusion we could have only come to through God.



  10. #720
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Well, I'm convinced. "The poo is smelly, so bury it" is a conclusion we could have only come to through God.
    Great counterpoint to the discussion of the origins of early disease abatement practices! I would recommend you to pursue Nobel Peace prize candidacy for your contributions to the ancient medicinal facets of anthropology.
    got chaos?

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