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  1. #101
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    The desire to be the perfect Mom ... be careful not to be lured into the pleasing deception of that.

    There's also the danger of flirting with "holier than thou" statements in threads like these, even if unintended.

    There were issues from my own childhood that I never wanted my kids to feel subjected to. Spanking was one of them. So I made conscious choices I felt would facilitate a certain result in my kids' lives. I read, noted and put into practice positive information from books that were popular when my kids were going through different developmental stages.

    I now have two young people stepping out into their adult lives and it's interesting to note that what "worked" for one child did not appear to "work" for the other. It was always a balancing act to understand each child and offer what I believed they needed at the time. And despite all that's great about what you do in your job as a parent, each child needs to rebel in their own way in order to help establish their independence, and will complain about SOMETHING that you did or didn't do. Each will likely feel that there was something challenging about their upbringing. No matter how "perfect" you try to get it, or how diligently you apply some magic parenting formula.

    My point I guess, simply put, is there is no formula. I believe that love, communication and mutual respect are the cornerstones of every relationship, including with your kids, but after that some of parenting is just "winging it" and hoping you are doing the right things for your family.

    As for the OP, I won't criticize someone who feels that there is an occasional reason to spank as a means to communicate a consequence. For example, I gave my two year old son a spank when he continually wanted to run away from me on walks, potentially into traffic or other dangerous situations. It was effective when words couldn't deliver that message and he lacked the reasoning capacity to control his own behaviour. I would define an acceptable spank as a "hand-to-bum" shot on a clothed bottom.

    Let's be clear though - I don't condone any kind of abuse - spankings are generally more about parents venting their own frustrations on a child rather than teaching any objective lessons. I agree those can leave indelible marks that last a lifetime ...

  2. #102
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Very well said, PeaceBaby.

    This has nothing to do with spanking or discipline but it does have to do with a wider interpretation of the thread topic:

    Ken Robinson says schools kill creativity | Video on TED.com

    And it speaks specifically to what PeaceBaby says: what works for one is guaranteed not to work for all. The "best" way to parent, IMO, is to forget philosophies and techniques and mindfully respond to each individual child as they need to be responded to.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #103
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ Thanks Ivy.

    With the perspective I have now, I wonder sometimes whether I've done my kids any big favours by holding myself to this almost impossible parenting standard. Don't get me wrong - I don't regret my choices - I feel they were the right ones for me. I volunteered at their schools, did all kinds of stuff for them and with them, BUT, I could barely live up to all that commitment, that view of "parenting perfection" and didn't take as good care of myself as I should have. I certainly was tired a LOT! There was a point in their early teens where I had really burnt myself out and even now I can put myself last in line too easily. Have to be careful about that!

    There are always pros and cons of any choice, always.

  4. #104
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The desire to be the perfect Mom ... be careful not to be lured into the pleasing deception of that.

    There's also the danger of flirting with "holier than thou" statements in threads like these, even if unintended.

    There were issues from my own childhood that I never wanted my kids to feel subjected to. Spanking was one of them. So I made conscious choices I felt would facilitate a certain result in my kids' lives. I read, noted and put into practice positive information from books that were popular when my kids were going through different developmental stages.

    I now have two young people stepping out into their adult lives and it's interesting to note that what "worked" for one child did not appear to "work" for the other. It was always a balancing act to understand each child and offer what I believed they needed at the time. And despite all that's great about what you do in your job as a parent, each child needs to rebel in their own way in order to help establish their independence, and will complain about SOMETHING that you did or didn't do. Each will likely feel that there was something challenging about their upbringing. No matter how "perfect" you try to get it, or how diligently you apply some magic parenting formula.

    My point I guess, simply put, is there is no formula.

    As for the OP, I won't criticize someone who feels that there is an occasional justifiable reason to spank as a means to communicate a consequence. For example, I gave my two year old son a spank when he continually wanted to run out away from me on walks, potentially into traffic or other dangerous situations. It was effective when words couldn't deliver that message and he lacked the reasoning capability to control his own behaviour.
    This is just an open sharing of ideas. No competition as to "who's the better parent". I find it much more natural to judge ideas than people. So I am in no way saying that a good parent is one who doesn't spank, or that a bad parent is one who does. So long as nothing currently illegal happens to the child, the child is the ultimate judge of rather or not they had a good parent.

    I'm simply talking about spanking as a respectful and effective means(or not) of communicating our ideas to children or getting them to follow our lead. I don't see any evidence that says that spanking is effective in accomplishing any of the above things. There was a time, in fairly recent history, when there was no such thing as child abuse. Why should we prescribe to the change? We don't accept the things that used to be done anymore, the things that were commonplace, because overtime a lot of people thought those things to be wrong. Why?

    When slavery was commonplace(and I am not comparing spanking to slavery ok??!!lolz..just talking about an ideological/sociological shift), many people just accepted it as common and even necessary. Releasing slaves would be dangerous to society, to free people, to even the slaves themselves. After all, slaves weren't even fully capable of thinking(so the belief went). Back then it was believed that it was the responsibility of the slave master to control his slave, for the benefit of everyone. Obviously, and thankfully, times changed. But it was people, particularly outnumbered abolitionist, that did something to change it. The thought of blatantly controlling other non-criminal adults is now horrific, although lots of people do believe that we are still controlled(and I'll leave those arguments to them. See: The Matrix). People didn't believe there was a way for all of us to interact with civility, but here we are..sniffles.

  5. #105
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    This is just an open sharing of ideas. No competition as to "who's the better parent". I find it much more natural to judge ideas than people. So I am in no way saying that a good parent is one who doesn't spank, or that a bad parent is one who does. So long as nothing currently illegal happens to the child, the child is the ultimate judge of rather or not they had a good parent.
    But you have said exactly the contrary multiple times in this thread. You believe that people who do not think their parents were wrong to have spanked them when they were children are in denial and repressing pain, do you not?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #106
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    But you have said exactly the contrary multiple times in this thread. You believe that people who do not think their parents were wrong to have spanked them when they were children are in denial and repressing pain, do you not?
    It's not so much what I think, it what many psychologist have said over and over-some for almost 100 years. It's what many psychiatrist have said. It's what many many medical doctors are now saying, and child educators, and those who have studied childhood pedagogy in the West. Even some neuroscientist are also saying it. I happen to believe them based on the evidence they have presented. If spanking is good for children, I simply want to know where the evidence is. I have never seen it and I'm genuinely interested. I'm an NFP! I'm open....

    Rather or not the child sees the parent as "good" or "bad" doesn't change the effects of spanking IF they are as real as is being said. I think I have a great mother. She spanked me. She did a lot of other things I can't stand too, and still does. Nonetheless, I still love her to death. She is one of my best friends. I am also aware that her spanking me did nothing to make me a "good" person, nor did it control me in the long-run(even when I truly needed her guidance).

  7. #107
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    It's not so much what I think, it what many psychologist have said over and over-some for almost 100 years. It's what many psychiatrist have said. It's what many many medical doctors are now saying, and child educators, and those who have studied childhood pedagogy in the West. Even some neuroscientist are also saying it. I happen to believe them based on the evidence they have presented. If spanking is good for children, I simply want to know where the evidence is. I have never seen it and I'm genuinely interested. I'm an NFP! I'm open....

    Rather or not the child sees the parent as "good" or "bad" doesn't change the effects of spanking IF they are as real as is being said. I think I have a great mother. She spanked me. She did a lot of other things I can't stand too, and still does. Nonetheless, I still love her to death. She is one of my best friends. I am also aware that her spanking me did nothing to make me a "good" person, nor did it control me in the long-run(even when I truly needed her guidance).
    So as long as people's perceptions agree with yours, they are valid judges of their parents' parenting?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #108
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    So as long as people's perceptions agree with yours, they are valid judges of their parents' parenting?
    The child/adult child is the judge of rather or not they had a "good parent", but their opinion of their parents doesn't change the impact of their parent's actions.

    My opinion means nothing in the grand scheme of things really. If a woman says that her husband's abuse doesn't really impact her children because he isn't actually hitting them....well, it doesn't matter. Every bit of research out there on children raised in abusive homes tells a completely different story. This is what you asked me awhile back ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Do you believe it is possible that someone could be okay with having been spanked and not be in denial and/or not have repressed pain, etc?
    I am not the researcher and not the scientist. I simply brought up the issue, and presented the evidence that I have seen that has changed my mind. The research comes from people of multiple disciplines, and some of the studies began almost 100 years ago. You are saying the research is incorrect, and I am actually open to that potential. But I have seen no data, only opinions coming from spanking supporters, that suggest anything of the such. My opinion doesn't change reality, although that would be pretty nice indeed.

    Ten Myths about Spanking Children.
    Spanking hurts kids in long run - study | Article from Chicago Sun-Times | HighBeam Research
    Why Do We Still Spank (Hit) Children? The Problem With Physical (Corporal) Punishment | Psychology Today
    Spanking can create defiant kids, report says
    UNC study shows link between spanking and physical abuse —
    SPANKING SPURS MISBEHAVIOR, STUDY CLAIMS. - Free Online Library
    Spanking May Cause Long-Term Harm - CBS News
    Why It Hurts To Spank A Child
    "I Was Spanked And I'm Fine!" - The Natural Child Project

    I spanked my first child, who is actually a child I took custody of when his mother couldn't care for him. I was 21 when I first began caring for him, and I was a full-time college student, and employee living almost 1,000 miles from any close family. I had no clue what to do with him, but I knew I loved him and wanted the best for him. I lived in a dorm with 3 other college students, and we managed.

    When he did something I found to be highly objectionable, I spanked him. I didn't actually know any better, but I knew what I knew. It got his attention. It took me a few years to actually look into the whole thing; and when I did, I couldn't believe what I saw. Suddenly, things started falling to place in my mind and I began testing out new ways to communicate with him(he was diagnosed with ADHD, oppositional defiance disorder, and Asperger's at 2.5). When his mother took custody again, she stopped spanking as well, something she still can't believe because she was raised in total and complete chaos. We worked together on the whole thing, and it was big learning for both of us. After my first's life changed for the better, and he got older, and the spanking ended, so too did his behaviors change for the better. Oddly, he also lost all of the previous diagnoses(and the psychotropics that the psychs had him on).

    There are times when I'd love to knock mine into the "middle of next year" or just smack him one good time. Just one good time... But I don't, and I wouldn't. I think of something else to do. I have to. Just like I have to with everyone else in my life. The reality of what I could potentially be doing to him erases any positive that may come from that action in the moment....for me. For me.

    If you are truly interested in an alternative view to the long held one(radical when she started out decades ago, but not so much today)try writing to Alice Miller. She is PhDed in philosophy, psychology and sociology, and is an expert if there is one on adult repression of childhood pains caused by dominant pedagogy. Her website features reader's mail from people of all ages(hundreds and hundreds), all walks of life, all over the world, who have written her about the possibility that their current emotional status stems from childhood pains forced underground. You may completely disagree with her, but she's a good read if you're interested. Alice Miller - Child Abuse and Mistreatment

  9. #109
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    You can see I added a bit to my reply between my posting and your reply. Nothing significantly different, just refining a thought and enhancing the ideas I already presented.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    This is just an open sharing of ideas. No competition as to "who's the better parent".
    But it can come across that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    I don't see any evidence that says that spanking is effective in accomplishing any of the above things.
    I don't believe spanking is "right" or effective either, but you appear to be proselytizing your position on the topic. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it contradicts an "open sharing" as you mention above.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    After my first's life changed for the better, and he got older, and the spanking ended, so too did his behaviors change for the better. Oddly, he also lost all of the previous diagnoses(and the psychotropics that the psychs had him on).
    So you are concluding here that cessation of spanking is the result of his improvement?

  10. #110
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default The History of Child Abuse

    To understand child abuse, it is vital to understand its history.

    A good place to start is by clicking on -

    THE HISTORY OF CHILD ABUSE

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