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  1. #31
    Senior Member sticker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    In Inclusion, this would mean you are a bit more expressive than other Melancholies. Basically, between I and I, though leaning toward I. My brother has this Inclusion, and he appears cool and observant of other people, but responds with cynicism and has a very sarcastic wit.

    Control, I would say if you are SJ, that would be Melancholy (with the Supines being more NF), but I could see where Supine would seem SJ as well. Supine Phlegmatic is on the border with Melancholy, so that would not be far off either, and that seems accurate from what you described. It's a low expressed Control (not quick to lead, and the whole confidence issue), and wanting others to do their part (moderate wanted).

    I'm not sure what you mean by "tie between Melancholy and Phlegmatic". If you mean a sort of overall average temperament? This system doesn't really do that, though the temperaments do temper each other in the overall mix. So yes, overall, you would be very Melancholy and very Phlegmatic.
    Ah, it was just a simple observation of both 'Phelgmatic' and 'Melancholy' appearing 2 times for those 3 areas and I wondered if it meant anything.
    Thanks for the analysis, seems pretty accurate.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member aeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    This is similar to Duchess. Would be a close match for INFP.
    Yep - I type as INFP - slight introversion, very strong intuition, strong feeling, moderate perceiving.

    Enneagram-wise, I am Type 9w1.


    cheers,
    Ian

  3. #33
    nevermore lane777's Avatar
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    I took the professional APS test several months ago. For those who care to know how an INFJ scores, here are my results:

    Inclusion: Compulsive Melancholy
    Control: Supine
    Affection: Phlegmatic - Melancholy

    I plan on taking the test again (eventually), so whenever that happens, I'll post those results here.
    Last edited by lane777; 02-03-2010 at 05:01 PM.
    To die would be an awfully big adventure - Peter Pan

    INFJ ~ 4w5 sp/sx ~ RLOAI ~ Inclusion e/w=1/0 (Melancholy Compulsive) Control: e/w=0/6 (Supine) Affection: e/w=4/0 (Phlegmatic Melancholy)

  4. #34
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Yeah, that was a perfect match for an INFJ. Most of them who took the "traits list" version also came out heavily Mel-sup or Mel-Phleg.
    (Note: When I use these LaHaye-esque combining terms for whole type correlations, it is for Inclusion/Control combinations, and not the "moderate blends" within an I/C/A area, we are discussing below).

    Quote Originally Posted by Duchessoftheshadows View Post
    So What I have so far is
    Phlegmatic-melancholy in Inclusion.
    Melancholy-phlegmatic In control.
    Expressive Supine-Responsive Phlegmatic in Affection.
    Am I following you alright? *My brain feels out of it today/lately XD*

    Awesome, that's perfect. Loving this, very easy to learn and apply.

    Thank you so much Eric .
    Oh, I'm sorry; I didn't even realize the bulk of your responses were in bold within the quote.
    S-P in Inclusion...S-P being Sanguine Phleg or Supine Phleg?
    S is Supine, and they use "G" for "sanGuine". (I don't like that, since Sanguine is more familiar. Even I sometimes forget and read the "S" as "Sanguine". I would have used "U" for Supine).

    But I see Supine-Phlegmatic in affection *W responsive* much more and it explains alot of my problems I have in expression.
    Well, a "________-Phlegmatic" blend is moderate in W or responsiveness. It is more responsive than the Melancholy and Choleric, though not as responsive as the pure Sanguine or Supine.

    I usually would get confused then address it to her that "sometimes I don't receive your signals of wanting me to ask. I don't know if you need help if you don't say it. It goes over my head etc. May even suggest sometimes just to let me know she needs help if she sees me not noticing.
    I guess you don't use dry humor, but then that's just one particular trait that gets mentioned alot for Phlegmatic blends. An example would be if you phrased it "well, you know, I should have known, for I do get so many signals from you that you needed help, after all". [/sarcasm].
    Do you ever react like that?
    Then on her side she gets mad and says " I shouldn't have to ask. Never mind I'm not going to kiss your ***". Me at this point:... oookay.

    Wow I'm really impressed with how well I see supine in my mother. bingo more like it .
    :eek: Just curious, what do you think the rest of her temperament, or her type is?
    (Your final reaction does seem Phlegmatic, even without the sarcasm. If somebody lashed out at me like that, I would be on one hand shaken with guilt, and then my Control would erupt and go on the defensive attack!)
    I mean I see supine but I don't do that to people where I expect them to read my mind and when they don't get upset. I see the tendency alittle *when younger especially* but i'm more laid back about it.
    Got it yes!! That's wonderful and explains alot. Expressing affection is definitely not something i'm hip too. I do feel sometimes that there is tape on my mouth like they've said for supine's, which I have gotten rather upset with myself over cause I couldn't understand why when I feel so much.
    The only i definitely don't expect people to take care of me heh.

    So Supine-Phlegmatic in Affection Perfect fit
    Yeah, that would sound like a moderated Supine. And you don't have as much of a want as a pure Supine, so you easily grow out of that "read my mind" tendency.
    That definitely sounds very accurate. I have a very low Expressiveness in my interaction with others and it can be a problem if I want to go deeper in knowing someone cause it can seem like I don't care or am not interested.

    How do I determine what is the low e and Moderate W in Inclusion and In Control? I'm thinking for Inclusion Phlegmatic-melancholy when I read the descriptions *fits with my introversion too* and Melancholy-Phlegmatic for In Control. Just to be clear that's what your talking about too right that those fit as well? . This is wonderful yay!!.
    So I'm between a Supine and Melancholy then? That makes sense .
    Does that mean I would be a Phlegmatic-Mel for Inclusion. I see melancholy but that's probably from the In control area being Mel-Phleg. I think I got it/getting somewhere.
    OK, you're saying "Phlegmatic-Melancholy" now. I was going by "Melancholy-Phlegmatic" which is what you initially said. So you had Melancholy Phlegmatic in both Inclusion and Control, and then you settled on Supine Phlegmatic in Affection. All three of those are close on the map (aka "Locator Chart" Ryan calls it, BTW), expressing little, like a Melancholy or Supine, but responding moderately like a Phlegmatic.

    Now, you're saying Phlegmatic-Melancholy in Inclusion. That's different! That one expresses moderately like a Phlegmatic, but responds as a Melancholy.
    To express moderately ("Phlegmatic-_________") in Inclusion is basically to be what we sometimes call an "ambivert". You express, or approach others for interaction more than an introvert. So you would kind of not be a solid introvert. One step higher, you would be in the Choleric range, and an extrovert.
    To respond as a Melancholy means you have a low want for interaction unless the criteria is met. You would be completely task-focused or directive. You would be a Chart the Course (IST/INJ) bordering on In Charge. So basically, it's between Melancholy and Choleric.
    (The E1 sounds very PM to me. I think others have noted that that type should be between 5 {introverted} and 8 {extroverted}).
    Since your P does not seem to be in question, I would think it would be Melancholy-Phlegmatic. (If you were fluctuating on J/P, then P-M would make more sense). Is it possible you mixed them up; i.e. you meant "Melancholy-Phlegmatic" like you had said before?

    Okay so cause I need less than a Supine but need more then a melancholy that would be equal to a phlegmatic ahhhh got ya . So I can come across to myself and others rather phlegmatic I would assume. I sure can see how I would perceive that.
    Sweet. Thank you Eric woohoo!!!.
    Yeah. Because what you respond as is ultimately what you really are.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  5. #35
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Oh, I'm sorry; I didn't even realize the bulk of your responses were in bold within the quote.
    S is Supine, and they use "G" for "sanGuine". (I don't like that, since Sanguine is more familiar. Even I sometimes forget and read the "S" as "Sanguine". I would have used "U" for Supine).

    Well, a "________-Phlegmatic" blend is moderate in W or responsiveness. It is more responsive than the Melancholy and Choleric, though not as responsive as the pure Sanguine or Supine.

    I guess you don't use dry humor, but then that's just one particular trait that gets mentioned alot for Phlegmatic blends. An example would be if you phrased it "well, you know, I should have known, for I do get so many signals from you that you needed help, after all". [/sarcasm].
    Do you ever react like that?
    :eek: Just curious, what do you think the rest of her temperament, or her type is?
    (Your final reaction does seem Phlegmatic, even without the sarcasm. If somebody lashed out at me like that, I would be on one hand shaken with guilt, and then my Control would erupt and go on the defensive attack!)
    Yeah, that would sound like a moderated Supine. And you don't have as much of a want as a pure Supine, so you easily grow out of that "read my mind" tendency.

    OK, you're saying "Phlegmatic-Melancholy" now. I was going by "Melancholy-Phlegmatic" which is what you initially said. So you had Melancholy Phlegmatic in both Inclusion and Control, and then you settled on Supine Phlegmatic in Affection. All three of those are close on the map (aka "Locator Chart" Ryan calls it, BTW), expressing little, like a Melancholy or Supine, but responding moderately like a Phlegmatic.

    Now, you're saying Phlegmatic-Melancholy in Inclusion. That's different! That one expresses moderately like a Phlegmatic, but responds as a Melancholy.
    To express moderately ("Phlegmatic-_________") in Inclusion is basically to be what we sometimes call an "ambivert". You express, or approach others for interaction more than an introvert. So you would kind of not be a solid introvert. One step higher, you would be in the Choleric range, and an extrovert.
    To respond as a Melancholy means you have a low want for interaction unless the criteria is met. You would be completely task-focused or directive. You would be a Chart the Course (IST/INJ) bordering on In Charge. So basically, it's between Melancholy and Choleric.
    (The E1 sounds very PM to me. I think others have noted that that type should be between 5 {introverted} and 8 {extroverted}).
    Since your P does not seem to be in question, I would think it would be Melancholy-Phlegmatic. (If you were fluctuating on J/P, then P-M would make more sense). Is it possible you mixed them up; i.e. you meant "Melancholy-Phlegmatic" like you had said before? ooopsies. I must of somewhere in trying to understand it all. Didn't mean to confuse you .

    Yeah. Because what you respond as is ultimately what you really are.
    Im sorry Ill put it on the outside of the quoted part so its easier for you .

    *I apologize I think my brain has been half asleep lately from some personal minor frustration*

    Ill say at most you could of actually said something instead of expecting me to read your mind in frustration.

    I also think Im not the type to lock horns without suffering a tremendous energy loss from it. Ill only engage if its absolutely vital.

    I especially noticed this when I was 16ish when a lot more hostility was around me which caused a great cut to my energy so Id walk away from an argument even it made me upset. I can get defensive though but I dont prefer to. I won't hesitate to stand up for myself though but as i mentioned ^ i get drained pretty quick from it all.

    That's good cause what you were going by I was agreeing with very well,
    so it was a matter of mix up on my half. So Mel-phleg Inclusion .

    Now that you I read that paragraph that makes sense. I knew something was missing from being P-M for Inc.
    Durr Im sorry *smacks forhead* Mel-Phleg for Inc it is. I definitely respond as a Phlegmatic not Melancholy. I think I misunderstood the terms oopsies.
    Thank you for your patience with my currently foggy brain.

    So how this sound?
    Mel-Phleg in Inclusion
    Mel-Phleg In Control
    And Supine-Phleg in Affection.
    Am I following you okay? .
    Last edited by INFtha14; 02-04-2010 at 07:40 AM.
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  6. #36
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_B
    Yeah, that was a perfect match for an INFJ. Most of them who took the "traits list" version also came out heavily Mel-sup or Mel-Phleg.
    Lane's results don't seem to be very similar to mine, and yet you and I both agree that I'm an "INJ" (to quote you). You're not suggesting that third letter should be a T, are you? No, you can't possibly be, but I would still be interested to hear what you think the differences say about me in comparison with "perfect matches for INFJ."

    By the way, in regards to those personality styles you mentioned earlier, I would say that I'm more of a Checker in the normal course of things and more of a Matcher when working with people. Since we're trying to describe my control style, weight would probably go on Matcher.

    EDIT: Now that I've had the time to do so, I've tried to narrow things down a bit:

    Inclusion: Phlegmatic-Melancholy

    Control: Melancholy-Phlegmatic

    Affection: Supine-Phlegmatic (Phlegmatic-Supine would be spot-on, except I don't feel a need for loved ones to show me a ton of affection. I'm more interested in being the one who shows affection, although it's hard for me to do so unless I'm extremely comfortable.)

    I find it slightly hard to choose between the profiles, because many of them are almost identical. Also, my results are eerily similar to Duchess's, but I don't really relate to her and what she's describing. What does that mean?
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  7. #37
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Well, Lane is wearing solid INFJ, and then took the actual APS and got Melancholy Compulsive in Inclusion and Supine in Control (the two we're most concerned with in comparing to type) which are both pure temperaments.
    You on the other hand had been trying on different types, and still have two letters in lowercase (which I assume means they're either weak, or not certain), and then you had different choices for your IC&A, and at that, all three (or seven, actually) of them were Phlegmatic blends, (inbetween temperaments, basically). So in both systems, you're more inbetween, which is actually another match in comparing.
    So You're apparently kind of INFJ, like Lane, and then you're a moderate Melancholy (one way or the other) in Inclusion, where she's compulsive. For both, that would suggest Chart the Course. In Control, you have two possible Phlegmatic blends, and since you have Nf, I say those could possibly correlate. Remember, I say both Supine and Phlegmatic in Control correpond to NF. So again, your results match a very inbetween preference that came out in the different types you tried on.
    If you have Choleric leanings in Control, I would think that suggests NT, and you did once try on NT. But then you also listed Melancholy Phlegmatic, which is almost Supine, so then that could match NF like Lane.

    Now, you've narrowed it down to Phlegmatic-Melancholy (I)/Melancholy Phlegmatic (C).Those are in two different areas, even though they are technically blends of the same two temperaments. Phlegmatic Melancholy is squarely in the low W range, but moderate E. Melancholy Phlegmatic, again, is moderate W, inbetween Melancholy (low W) and Supine (high W), and squarely in the low E range like those other two. So that would also make sense as a fit for a Chart the Course-Catalyst (INFJ), though in a looser sense than Lane's Mc/S.

    Duchess is similar in having all Phlegmatic blends, yet she wears INfP. She has the moderate MP in Inclusion and Control. MP can go either way, as a Chart the Course (Pure Melancholy) or a Behind the Scenes (Supine or Phlegmatic, which it borders on), and as a Stabilizer (M) or a Catalyst (S or P). She's claiming Behind the Scenes/Catalyst, so that is a fairly close match.

    Remember, APS covers moderate ranges that MBTI doesn't cover (yet this would explain type ambiguity!) So you're moderate, and inbetween INFP and INFJ, but apparently on the INFJ side, and that is very different from INFP; hence, you would not relate to her. (Have to analyze further her reactions from a cognitive perspective, but she would be an Fi user, and the type you're wearing uses Fe.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  8. #38
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, Lane is wearing solid INFJ, and then took the actual APS and got Melancholy Compulsive in Inclusion and Supine in Control (the two we're most concerned with in comparing to type) which are both pure temperaments.
    You on the other hand had been trying on different types, and still have two letters in lowercase (which I assume means they're either weak, or not certain), and then you had different choices for your IC&A, and at that, all three (or seven, actually) of them were Phlegmatic blends, (inbetween temperaments, basically). So in both systems, you're more inbetween, which is actually another match in comparing.
    So You're apparently kind of INFJ, like Lane, and then you're a moderate Melancholy (one way or the other) in Inclusion, where she's compulsive. For both, that would suggest Chart the Course. In Control, you have two possible Phlegmatic blends, and since you have Nf, I say those could possibly correlate. Remember, I say both Supine and Phlegmatic in Control correpond to NF. So again, your results match a very inbetween preference that came out in the different types you tried on.
    If you have Choleric leanings in Control, I would think that suggests NT, and you did once try on NT. But then you also listed Melancholy Phlegmatic, which is almost Supine, so then that could match NF like Lane.

    Now, you've narrowed it down to Phlegmatic-Melancholy (I)/Melancholy Phlegmatic (C).Those are in two different areas, even though they are technically blends of the same two temperaments. Phlegmatic Melancholy is squarely in the low W range, but moderate E. Melancholy Phlegmatic, again, is moderate W, inbetween Melancholy (low W) and Supine (high W), and squarely in the low E range like those other two. So that would also make sense as a fit for a Chart the Course-Catalyst (INFJ), though in a looser sense than Lane's Mc/S.

    Duchess is similar in having all Phlegmatic blends, yet she wears INfP. She has the moderate MP in Inclusion and Control. MP can go either way, as a Chart the Course (Pure Melancholy) or a Behind the Scenes (Supine or Phlegmatic, which it borders on), and as a Stabilizer (M) or a Catalyst (S or P). She's claiming Behind the Scenes/Catalyst, so that is a fairly close match.

    Remember, APS covers moderate ranges that MBTI doesn't cover (yet this would explain type ambiguity!) So you're moderate, and inbetween INFP and INFJ, but apparently on the INFJ side, and that is very different from INFP; hence, you would not relate to her. (Have to analyze further her reactions from a cognitive perspective, but she would be an Fi user, and the type you're wearing uses Fe.
    I see; it makes perfect sense to me now, and it matches my weak F and J nicely. Thank you, Eric.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  9. #39
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Is there any simple test to determine this?

  10. #40
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    No, the APS or FIRO is the test associated with this, which are not free. There's also the
    Free "traits list" sorter test were were discussing in the ealier thread: Five Temperaments test!
    That will give a general idea of the temperament mix, but not divide them into the three areas.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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