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Thread: Signs of Ni

  1. #21
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

    In Basic Economics Thomas Sowell (INTJ would be my guess) says that in some cases the best way to undestand what a thing does is to look at what happens when it is absent. Are you saying that when someone is talking/writing in a very iNtuitive manner but not obviously using Ne, that is how you tell that it's Ni at work?
    I'd agree with INTJ. He analyzes things based on core behaviors rather than overlaying patterns. Also, he does the INTJ thing of arguing for an unpopular stance in a coherent way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Ugh...

    I've seen ENTP...

    Whatever he is, he's obnoxious.
    I strongly doubt ENTP. Old ENTPs tend to ooze Fe.

    Why obnoxious? Is there a personality quality to which you object, or is it just politics? There are INTJs on all sides of most political issues. All you need to do to get two INTJs to vehemently disagree is give them slightly different Se-style data points.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'd agree with INTJ. I strongly doubt ENTP. Old ENTPs tend to ooze Fe.
    Yeah, I suspected ITJ originally, largely for this reason, but I've seen him typed as ENTP.

    Frankly, I don't really care; I just don't like him.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Also, he does the INTJ thing of arguing for an unpopular stance in a coherent way.
    Well, so did Milton Friedman and Robert Nozick, but they're both NTPs on the same side of the issue, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Why obnoxious? Is there a personality quality to which you object, or is it just politics?
    Personality quality.

    I am actually more on his side than not when it comes to politics.

    But the way he presents it actually makes me not want to be on his side.

    I think he is extremely close-minded, and seems incapable of seeing things from any view but his own.

    I've been reading his editorials for over half my life, and they're always just the exact same fucking thing.

    Whether it's Pi-tunnel vision, or TiSi clinging to his model (either one works), he's a broken fucking record.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    There are INTJs on all sides of most political issues.
    Yes, I can't stand Paul Krugman, either; nor am I a big fan of Joseph Stiglitz.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    All you need to do to get two INTJs to vehemently disagree is give them slightly different Se-style data points.
    Exactly.

    Which is why I mentioned the problem of Pi-tunnel vision (if he's an INTJ) for Sowell (and would for Krugman and Stiglitz, too).

    I went through a crisis whereby I realized the extent to which my opinions and beliefs were far too dependent on Pi-tunnel vision and lack of alternate Se data points. I developed a philosophy, or what you could perhaps call just a perspective, based largely on actively and intentionally combating this, and, pretty much ever since, I haven't been able to stand Sowell.

    He reminds me of a very old, but very undeveloped, version of my previous self.

    It would be like me had I not grown personally since I was 18.

    It makes me shudder.

  3. #23
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Inductive reasoning, but I think that entails Si also.

    EDIT: I'll just leave it at this.

    EDIT 2: I'm not exactly sure about Si, however.

  4. #24
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    Hmm, a a strong Ne user, Ni often gives off a noticable strange and exotic vibe to me. But I would divide it into two groups: Ni+Te and Ni+Fe.

    My father, an INFJ and a retired psychoanalyst (and previous general practitioner) is a good example. We have connecting points but his way of seeing the world is very strange to me.
    He is so full of views, opinions and interpretations of thing, especially everything human, inter- and intrapersonal. He just sees things. He sees a person or sees or hears about an event and will come up with an interpretation, seemingly out of nowhere. He just sees things and claims that that is how things are. This is what is really going on at the bottom of it all, etc... He just knows. If you doubt his vision or version of things, he will not be able to name objective reasons but just reiterate what seems obvious to him because it just comes to him, so he usually doesn't question it. It made him an excellent analyst and therapist who can easily read people (though he sometimes trusts his reading of people and situations too much!) but it also makes him a lone weirdo with a very particular way of seeing the world that he can not always easily explain or account for.

    Ni+Te seems similar to me but is much less focused on people, emotions and values and concentrates more on inanimate objects and "colder" systems. What they have in common and what sticks out to me as an outside observer is a combination of a) this stubborn insistence and almost religious conviction that they own the truth even though it is ultimately rooted in gut feeling, they expect you to simply trust their instinct on this, together with b) a view of things that is very much their own, different from the mainstream.

    Annoyingly enough, they often are right (because they use this function so routinely that it actually IS quite reliable).
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    First of all, unless the ENFP is a very good chameleon, you can tell who the S types are: the Si types think you're weird, and the Se types think you're totally out to lunch (not present in the world). ENFPs can fairly easily make connections with other Ne types: the ideas bounce around in the same way.

    And the Ni types? They're the ones who seem sensible, on the outside, and may even seem more present and active in the world than you (Te/Fe/Se), but they don't think you're weird at all. Yes, they might see you as flaky and perhaps undependable, but no, they don't think you're weird.
    The INJs I’ve known and I have always laughed about this. NPs can’t hide their alienness, whereas NJs can play chameleon with much less effort. (Personally, the only way for me to play my best chameleon is to just shut up and smile when appropriate.) But I always pick out the NJs because they aren’t giving me a strange look like everyone else when I’m careening down the side of my Ne idea-avalanche, but more of an intense stare, which usually features their eyebrows locked together like two wolves fighting over a piece of meat in the middle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Inductive reasoning, but I think that entails Si also.

    EDIT: I'll just leave it at this.
    You beat me to it, hehe. I knew I should have secured a placeholder this morning. Ah well, regardless :

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    A good example is to compare theories of gravity. Newton described gravity as a force between all objects that have mass. A single equation of gravity applies to all objects. The behavior of objects as a function of time is determined by their state at any particular Se moment, and then applying the force of gravity to all objects involved. This is a very INTJ way of looking at things.

    Einstein (INTP), on the other hand, describes gravity as a curvature of spacetime. With this concept, he turns gravity into an almost timeless concept: time is just another "dimension", thus rendering it static, not dynamic. Gravity isn't a force that changes with distance, but instead there is no force: it is just spacetime. There is a single universal description of everything, everywhere, for all points of time and space. This isn't to say that one cannot convert Einstein's equations into a "3+1" perspective, and look at gravity as a "force" again; I'm just pointing out that this urge to turn gravity from a dynamic, timelike equation into a universal overlay (Ne) that hides the dynamics (Ni) is a very INTP thing to do.
    This is a great illustration. A big take away from it includes the notion that either view by itself does not give us the most complete essence of what gravity is. When one takes the two views and overlays them, the dimensions of the concept explode.

    I think it’s why one so often sees Ni and Ne seek out the synergy. By forging the use of them together, we are able to tap into the full reality and full grasp of the idea.

    From my perspective – and I realize there are many different ways to view this - Ne works inductively – bottom up – specific to general, and Ni works - deductively – top down – general to specific. Often each of them struggles to get the idea all the way to completeness. This is why Ni will often have an idea – the framework - that they know is correct, yet they can’t explain it or justify it. This can result in problems with application. This is also why Ne will be bombarded with ideas and pieces often with no real context or outlet for follow-through, or outlet for the interconnectedness of the ideas. This also often results in problems with application. Ni and Ne often have a hold of opposite ends of the same sceen of yarn, and if they keep rolling it up they will move toward each other in the middle.

    The difference between inductive and deductive reasoning is mostly in the way the arguments are expressed. Any inductive argument can also be expressed deductively, and any deductive argument can also be expressed inductively – an in the above example, gravity can be converted back and forth.

    The Ni has the border/sense of wholeness of the puzzle, and the Ne has the inside pieces and how they all fit together. One can’t see the full picture without both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I think there is something about the whole eyes thing.

    I think we often have a rather blank expression, because our thoughts are not fully formed, or "crystallized", yet.
    Yes. Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    Yes, and the Si-users really can't stand it.

    Their minds are so inflexible.

    Almost J-like.




  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia_infp View Post
    The INJs I’ve known and I have always laughed about this. NPs can’t hide their alienness, whereas NJs can play chameleon with much less effort. (Personally, the only way for me to play my best chameleon is to just shut up and smile when appropriate.) But I always pick out the NJs because they aren’t giving me a strange look like everyone else when I’m careening down the side of my Ne idea-avalanche, but more of an intense stare, which usually features their eyebrows locked together like two wolves fighting over a piece of meat in the middle.
    That sounds just about right.

    Quote Originally Posted by mia_infp View Post
    From my perspective – and I realize there are many different ways to view this - Ne works inductively – bottom up – specific to general, and Ni works - deductively – top down – general to specific.
    This, however, is wrong.

    Or, when not wrong, poor form.

    There is better terminology out there.

    What you would properly be aiming for is divergent (Ne) and convergent (Ni).

    Other terminology that expresses the same thing is one-to-many (Ne) and many-to-one (Ni).

    You are dead wrong with inductive and deductive, however.

    If anything is associated with inductive reasoning, it is Ni.

    I think iNtuition in general may be rather inductive as well, though.

    The problem is, I'm not quite sure the way Ne relates to inductive reasoning.

    Or the difference in how the two similarly/differently relate to inductive reasoning.

    I've noted for a long time, however, the relation between Ni and inductive reasoning.

    Quote Originally Posted by mia_infp View Post




    What?

    It takes a while to penetrate your thick skulls...

  7. #27
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    ETA: Actually, I think I'm on to something...

    I think Ne is kinda just uncontained inductive reasoning.

    It brings up all kinds of possibilities, but the true one (i.e., reality [Se]) is almost irrelevant.

    Ni, on the other hand, considers the various possibilities, but only wants to come up with the true one (i.e., reality [Se]).

    In a similar way, Ti is hardcore deductive reasoning (like grand theory stylez -- every single step along a huge path of reasoning is explicitly demonstrated), while Te is much more deductive reasoning lite ("empirically that is shown to be not true, thus what you're saying does not follow").

    Hmmm... not bad... there's actually something here...

    Thanks, Ne-user, for generating a (false) possibility that helped lead me, the Ni-user (and you, as my beneficiary), closer to the truth.


  8. #28
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    It takes a while to penetrate your thick skulls...
    They're totally asking for it [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqq051BU2MY"]hard[/YOUTUBE]
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  9. #29

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    I'm not sure how to spot it... I'll think more on it. But I can tell you from experience that when I'm lost in Ni-reverie, my ENFP s.o. who is more observant about my far-away moments (and will comment on it), will say to me "Hey!" *hand-wave* "Come back to me dear. You're far away again."

    Me: "Hrm? Oh yeah, sorry." He calls it the faraway eyes. I've also heard thousand yard stare.

    I can get very mentally "lost" and this is something I feel bad about when I'm supposed to be sociable with others or something I can just be really frustrated with when I'm trying to focus (studying, in a lecture, learning something etc.). If I hear something that interests me, the data or speaker that's triggered me has just sent me off into a mental tangent and it may be a few seconds or a few moments until I snap back to the present. This is infuriating when the information is important and I keep having to yank myself back to the present over and over again... Ni is like a freakin balloon on a string. (Note the metaphor I just used, we do favor them.)

    Of course, if people interrupt me too many times in a short period, I get very very irritable. I don't like being interrupted when I'm following a train of thought in my mind. The claws will come out if they're being impatient and I don't feel they have the right to intrude on my thoughts for whatever reason.

    I'm not sure if other Ni-users get irritated like this when they're yanked out of their minds (especially when they believe it's their leisure time to do so etc. versus knowing they're supposed to be focusing on other things and are grateful for the pull-back. I think this is an important distinction to make.)?
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    It brings up all kinds of possibilities, but the true one (i.e., reality) is almost irrelevant.

    Ni, on the other hand, considers the various possibilities, but only wants to come up with the true one (i.e., reality [Se]).




    Watching you chase your own tail post after post is kinda amusing, though.

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