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  1. #81
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Highlander!

    You started this!!!

    Yeah - I thought it might result in some healthy discussion/conflict. A hopelessly flawed Ni fueled perspective no doubt.

    Have been busy at church, going out to brunch, and then the Chicago meet up.

    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    ^ I've witnessed this firsthand. :/

    Sorry, NTJs, but this is perhaps your Achilles heel.
    Interesting perspective.

    For INTJs, I think the arrogance of perspective relates to specific things that they have thought about a great deal. Since they cannot always articulate the reasoning or rationale as well as they like, the view is considered arbitrary or wrong by others.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Yeah, I mean, most people tend to think that way regardless of type; it's just NTJs who are especially arrogant about assuming they understand everything that goes into every other type's perspective enough to declare everyone else a total moron.

    You can tell from the way the first thing they jump to every time they want to belittle someone is "YOU CLEARLY DO NOT HAVE SUBSTANTIAL ECONOMIC AND FINANCIAL INFLUENCE LOL", as if anyone who doesn't place that as Primary Life Goal #1 is a complete ingrate. /vomit
    You can't actually think this perspective is a reflection of the broader reality - do you? Listen to yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post

    It's just some of you that delude yourselves into believing Ni somehow magically encompasses all other functions and gives you a complete view of everything. (Your poor comprehension of Ne/Ti reveals otherwise, though.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    See, a good Ni user (not a crackpot, bottom-of-the-barrel conspiracy theorist) has good reason for making a claim, a lesser claim, but a claim nonetheless, that resembles what you have written.

    There is a reason for it.

    It is what Ni does.

    It looks at the underlying assumptions of different perspectives, so that it understands why those perspective see things the way they do.

    Then it looks at another perspective on the same topic, and does the same thing to it.

    And another.

    And another.

    And another.

    It then synthesizes these disparate perspectives to come to a more global, encompassing view.

    Now that view is not necessarily ALL encompassing, as new information can always be presented to the Ni-user, which he/she will listen to, consider, come to understand its underlying assumptions, and, after having accomplished these tasks, incorporate into the framework.

    As such, there is a reason why Ni doms, the people whose primary and continuous process is doing exactly the above, who are making the claim that others are not seeing the issue at hand from all the necessary, important perspectives, and are thus missing out on a significant amount of the material required to properly understand the subject at hand, are perfectly sensible in saying so: more than any other function, the purpose of Ni is to look at a subject from as many possible perspectives in order to most accurately comprehend its essence.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If only Ni types (actually just NTJs, once again, NFJs aren't half as arrogant) would accept that Ni is still just one perspective, not the meta-perspective synthesizing all other perspectives that you want it to be. I understand that that's what you're trying to do; the problem is that you vastly overestimate your own success rate with it.

    Every type overestimates its ability with its dominant function; for Ni, this translates into exaggerated belief in one's ability to "read between the lines" to "see the real truth" or whatever it is that gets you guys off.

    To be fair, a lot of the time you do use this perspective to great effect and come up with something really insightful. But you need to remember that Ni represents only a value system that leads you to desire this sort of meta-understanding--by no means does it guarantee any real ability to see it.
    Do you actually think we view this as perfect or without flaws? Do you think we aren't well aware of the limitations in knowledge?

    I think you may be overly influenced by your personal reaction to the manner with which the NTJs communicate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post

    I suspect this "humility" you see is actually a developed persona for interacting with others. Unlike my raw, axe-like Te that brutally pummels others, or Z's Te which is blunt, older INTJs have had a long time to learn that Te pisses people off...thus learn to Fe like mannerisms to convey messages....

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  2. #82
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Sim INTJs do something weird as they age. The first 20 years or so seem silent. They say very little. But they constantly absorb social mannerisms as a Te ruleset. They plan very carefully how to best convey the message to convince the other of what they wish. To the point they plan out convos in advance so much in their heads that they sometimes forget they never actually had the convo with the other person....
    I occasionally toss around the idea (seriously, mind you) that I have arrived at an F approach through logic/rationalization, and in fact am not naturally of that disposition. I have 80+ pages of writing from my mid-20's where I went through this entire process and came out the other end...which is why I muse on occasion. Anyway, I say this because I was exactly as you describe in my first 20 years, minus perhaps the motivation of convincing others of what I wish. I however don't think I have that Te drive needed to be an INTJ, in comparison to, well, actual INTJ's. I've always viewed myself as a bit of a hybrid.

    To your point re. older INTJ's, though... I tend to agree. An INTJ I'm beginning to know well is actually extremely polite, tactful, pleasant, amiable, and whatnot in public. He's learned all of it very well, and actually quite surpasses me. lol. (But, I think he comes across as more generally *Pleasant*/good-natured... not warm)
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  3. #83
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    And, because of that, I really want to understand what we're all actually trying to do in these discussions. Share or spread our own views? Come to a better understanding of typology systems? Share information in a meaningful way? Popcorn-level discussion? Nothing in particular (which, well, is also fine)?

    If we're looking to develop a good, solid foundation for all of this typology stuff, I think we'd all be well-served to try to figure out where exactly it is that we as individuals are coming from. I think that, sort of ironically, we'd also fare better if we left others' individual types out of the discussion, because they're majorly clouding things up. Everyone is completely responsible for evaluating their own perspective.
    I think some of us are trying to learn and we are entertained by the discussion.

    Also, bringing things out into the open and confronting issues can be healthy.

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  4. #84
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Maybe; I'm not sure. I'll let you be the judge of that. I just know the description resonated.

    (I'm really not a big fan, at all, of breaking things down into functions though; I find the process tedious and often-times counterproductive in the end, for various reasons I don't want to derail about in here. Sorry. ]

    In contrast, I find these sorts of definitions of Ni retarded. No offense. I mean, I don't know if the creator of said definition is trying to isolate Ni and only Ni (presumably so? And failing to really get at what it IS.. or perhaps it as an Ni definition is more applicable/pertinent as a tertiary function or beyond?), but it's not like I utilize Ni is some sort of vacuum where I'm just going off of hunches 24/7.

    ------------
    In the end, though, this is why mbti theory is rather nebulous as a system - certain descriptions resonate with some, others not at all.
    I can make no certain idea regarding how anothers mind works, only tentative suggestions, that may be of some value to the receiver. To do anything else, such as insist upon a fact, is terribly presumptious as I cannot see or judge the world the way others, even other enfps, do. So the Ti thing was just a suggestion...

    I have seen several INFJs share your concern regarding the dissection of the functions and how it lacks in true understanding. I think the attempt at function dissection derives from Te/Ti desires for systemic understanding..but once you add Fi and Fe back into the picture, the Te/Ti models appear very incomplete-2D when people are in reality 3D.

    I almost feel as though Fi and Fe are evolutions on top of Te and Ti to cope with the utter complexity seen in human behavior. They are much more complex in their analytical capabilities and much better at coping with very "fuzzy" problems-people problems and other problems as well.

    For ENFPs, as we get older we start to use NeTe in combo together so love to play with models and play at dissection of the functions...but sorta know it is incomplete the whole time. We look at large numbers of patterns over large numbers of people.

    For INFJs, I kinda wondered if you guys dont do the total opposite-NiTi-and look at one person, but that person is an isolated system which you strive to understand in all of their individual complexity-but then fill in the gaps with Fe. But I dont know this, it was just an Ne-ism, for what it's worth...just playing with thoughts....

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I occasionally toss around the idea (seriously, mind you) that I have arrived at an F approach through logic/rationalization, and in fact am not naturally of that disposition. I could post the 80+ pages of writing from my mid-20's where I went through this entire process, but of course that would be boring. Anyway, I say this because I was exactly as you describe in my first 20 years, minus perhaps the motivation of convincing others of what I wish. I however don't think I have that Te drive needed to be an INTJ, in comparison to, well, actual INTJ's. I've always viewed myself as a bit of a hybrid.

    To your point re. older INTJ's, though... I tend to agree. An INTJ I'm beginning to know well is actually extremely polite, tactful, pleasant, amiable, and whatnot in public. He's learned all of it very well, and actually quite surpasses me. lol. (But, I think he comes across as more generally *Pleasant*/good-natured... not warm)
    yes...just to clarify..I think the INTJs are very real in this developed social skill set, not fake at all...but I dont know enough real life INFJs to really say I have observed the same trend at all.

  5. #85
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    For INTJs, I think the arrogance of perspective relates to specific things that they have thought about a great deal. Since they cannot always articulate the reasoning or rationale as well as they like, the view is considered arbitrary or wrong by others.
    The arrogance doesn't come from a sense of arbitrariness, caprice, rectitude or wrongness, but rather the invalidation of other perspectives that comes along with the presentation, from time to time.

  6. #86
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    By the definition in the OP.
    I use Ni for just about everything.. My emotional breakdowns occur when I cannot shift perspective.
    Very interesting.

  7. #87
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The arrogance doesn't come from a sense of arbitrariness, caprice, rectitude or wrongness, but rather the invalidation of other perspectives that comes along with the presentation, from time to time.
    So, in other words, you are saying it's the presentation and that they are essentially telling others they are wrong.

    Is that right?

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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    And, because of that, I really want to understand what we're all actually trying to do in these discussions. Share or spread our own views? Come to a better understanding of typology systems? Share information in a meaningful way? Popcorn-level discussion? Nothing in particular (which, well, is also fine)?

    If we're looking to develop a good, solid foundation for all of this typology stuff, I think we'd all be well-served to try to figure out where exactly it is that we as individuals are coming from. I think that, sort of ironically, we'd also fare better if we left others' individual types out of the discussion, because they're majorly clouding things up. Everyone is completely responsible for evaluating their own perspective.
    Nice crescendo on both accounts.

  9. #89
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    So, in other words, you are saying it's the presentation and that they are essentially telling others they are wrong.

    Is that right?
    Maybe not as much as they're wrong as much as it is there's no possible way they could be right. You can prove the former, while you can't prove the latter without access to the exact same information the other person has.

  10. #90
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Maybe not as much as they're wrong as much as it is there's no possible way they could be right. You can prove the former, while you can't prove the latter without access to the exact same information the other person has.
    So, I think what you might be saying is that one is based on facts and the other isn't. I don't think a person who is dominant Ni really places facts in a position of supremacy in making decisions. I also don't think that it would ever be possible to have the same information since Ni is an unconscious thing. Therefore, it is impossible to prove.

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