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  1. #151
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Makes total sense for Ni, Si and Te, Fe. It breaks for the other functions.

    The mirror/hole descriptions need to be swapped for an Ne dom. These are only suited to an Ni dom. Ne is a Funnel, an amplifying, modulating funnel....but a funnel that brings info outwards to inwards, much of that a connected meshwork. Ti or Fi is the mirror....the oversoul I have heard it called.

    We "judge" by looking inward at the mirror....to see the outer world reflected...then compare to our inner Si world.

    so Ni "depth" isnt really the same thing as Fi "depth"....
    It's just what Eric B pointed out above. Ne takes related information over time and seeks to create an archetypal framework for it, based on what preference the person has (Ti being objective, apersonal interactions, while Fi being subjective, personal involvement). Ni takes limited information and attempts to extrapolate its connection to an existing archetypal framework, based on what preference the person has (Te being objective, impersonal rules, while Fe being subjective, agreed-upon conventions).

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's just what Eric B pointed out above. Ne takes related information over time and seeks to create an archetypal framework for it, based on what preference the person has (Ti being objective, apersonal interactions, while Fi being subjective, personal involvement). Ni takes limited information and attempts to extrapolate its connection to an existing archetypal framework, based on what preference the person has (Te being objective, impersonal rules, while Fe being subjective, agreed-upon conventions).
    :yim_rolling_on_the_

    No typological bias to see here, people; keep on moving...

  3. #153
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I personally didn't find Eric's description of Ni fruitful whatsoever...

    Seems the Ti-users and a tert Ni-user do, though...
    Yes, I suppose it might have a lot to do with having tert Ni rather than dom. In any case, I like it because it's another way to look at Ni that I hadn't considered before. When combined with all of the others that I have already seen, I think it helps to expand my understanding. It also helps that it's more straightforward compared to many of the others.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Experiencing the current experience is Se, and conceptualizing from it is Ne. For both forms of Pi; you have taken in the information; and now it's inside. When you bring it up again from inside (memory), you are engaging Si. If, when you bring it up again from the inside, this time you conceptualize it, you are engaging Ni.
    What gets confusing is that bringing it up from the inside could also be termed "externalizing" it as it begins from within which means it goes to the outside or it "extraverts"(abstract action).

    While bringing it in could be internalizing it even though the initial perception starts from outside.

    This is why perception is important even in understanding perception.
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #155
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post

    This is why perception is important even in understanding perception.
    yes. (Hearts to you Poki!!!)

  6. #156
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Sim's definition is mostly fine. I don't find much wrong in it. There, however, may be a number of missed points that may be added to it.

  7. #157
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's just what Eric B pointed out above. Ne takes related information over time and seeks to create an archetypal framework for it, based on what preference the person has (Ti being objective, apersonal interactions, while Fi being subjective, personal involvement). Ni takes limited information and attempts to extrapolate its connection to an existing archetypal framework, based on what preference the person has (Te being objective, impersonal rules, while Fe being subjective, agreed-upon conventions).
    Now I is confuzid, sim and I said as much earlier yesterday.

    But, I do not approve of your description of Fi as being both subjective and involving personal involvement, I dunno why, lemme think for a sec...

    KK, I understand from an objective point of view how Fi can be accurately perceived as a subjective function, but I dunno, "my" Fi is like a prescient, and omnipresent though mostly quiet voice that comes from within, it's a feeling, it's a presence, it's always there, always, ALWAYS, and you don't have to believe me but it's somehow separate from me yet an integral part of me. I am an agnostic technically, and an atheist by most people's standards including my own, but "my" Fi, shit, I don't even feel like it's mine, per se, but it's the closest thing to "God" that I believe in, perhaps it is usually a whisper because it is in my aux, but it tells me truths, truths that I don't even want to believe in sometime, truths that I ignore, but I can never hide from it, myself, that is.

    Looking in the mirror, sitting, just being, I know when I'm doing right and I know when I'm doing wrong, this part of me, this Fi, the reason why I don't like calling it subjective is that usually when something is subjective it is prone to subjective bias, but BELIEVE ME, my Fi judges me, watches me, sees me just the same, if not more, than it does others.

    I don't get special treatment, well, my Fi is flexible to understanding the reasons why people do the things they do, which is most often out of fear, and rarely out of sheer malice, but I'm constantly tormented by my own Fi Police, fo realz.

    Granted, I am not working in full accordance with it, so that makes sense.

    It is ego-less, it wants what's right for me just as much as it wants it for others, it wants what's right and just and good to prevail over human insecurity/fear/shame/self-loathing and misery.

    It wants goodness, pure goodness, virtue within and without.

    I dunno, I lost my point.

    Fi is by far my "deepest" function.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

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  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    Yes, I suppose it might have a lot to do with having tert Ni rather than dom. In any case, I like it because it's another way to look at Ni that I hadn't considered before. When combined with all of the others that I have already seen, I think it helps to expand my understanding. It also helps that it's more straightforward compared to many of the others.
    Yeah, you see this often with tert-Ni users...

    I would think that tert Ni would be so confusing to the user as it's developing, that they would just hope for a simple explanation to offer them some kind of understanding as to is going on...

    For Ni-doms, who are very facile with their Ni-use, these kinds of descriptions just sound rather shallow, clunky, and vapid.

    Like a layman trying to explain how some aspect of an automobile works: his description might be more understandable to other laymen, but the auto-mechanics would probably find it very rudimentary, at best.

  9. #159
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    ^^Yeah, my Fi kicks my own ass too...Fi feels like you but feels separate from you...I recognize this.

    Random ass thought 1:
    No matter how hard we try when we describe these cognitive functions we will do so using the lens of our own cognitive functions.

    Thus it seems time for a group exercise in which we form 16 separate little groups, each with it’s own definition of Ni, then regroup and we can observe how we each manage to perceive the function and taint whatever it is via our own internal projection and perceptions.

    Random ass thought 2:
    Anyways I forgot….INTJs at least will microfocus in on one “object/problem” and switch it through 470,000 different contexts, identify all the gaps in knowledge then try and refine the core to some ultimate simplistic truth-aka an archetype as Eric B suggested.

    So I don’t have an issue with archetype, but the more important aspect in understanding Ni for me is how you get to the archetype-the Ni process. Where the Ti users simply latched onto the final product of the Ni, the archetype, as being most important, and disregarded Ni processing-which is the really interesting part....

    ENFPs look at 470,000 different things, paying only slightest attention to each, linking all together, to find a consistent overarching theme-are we trying to create a single overarching context?

    470,000 looks = 1 thing
    470,000 things = 1 look

    Anyways Ni...It makes you glow!


  10. #160
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Now I is confuzid, sim and I said as much earlier yesterday.

    But, I do not approve of your description of Fi as being both subjective and involving personal involvement, I dunno why, lemme think for a sec...

    KK, I understand from an objective point of view how Fi can be accurately perceived as a subjective function, but I dunno, "my" Fi is like a prescient, and omnipresent though mostly quiet voice that comes from within, it's a feeling, it's a presence, it's always there, always, ALWAYS, and you don't have to believe me but it's somehow separate from me yet an integral part of me. I am an agnostic technically, and an atheist by most people's standards including my own, but "my" Fi, shit, I don't even feel like it's mine, per se, but it's the closest thing to "God" that I believe in, perhaps it is usually a whisper because it is in my aux, but it tells me truths, truths that I don't even want to believe in sometime, truths that I ignore, but I can never hide from it, myself, that is.

    Looking in the mirror, sitting, just being, I know when I'm doing right and I know when I'm doing wrong, this part of me, this Fi, the reason why I don't like calling it subjective is that usually when something is subjective it is prone to subjective bias, but BELIEVE ME, my Fi judges me, watches me, sees me just the same, if not more, than it does others.

    I don't get special treatment, well, my Fi is flexible to understanding the reasons why people do the things they do, which is most often out of fear, and rarely out of sheer malice, but I'm constantly tormented by my own Fi Police, fo realz.

    Granted, I am not working in full accordance with it, so that makes sense.

    It is ego-less, it wants what's right for me just as much as it wants it for others, it wants what's right and just and good to prevail over human insecurity/fear/shame/self-loathing and misery.

    It wants goodness, pure goodness, virtue within and without.

    I dunno, I lost my point.

    Fi is by far my "deepest" function.
    When I say Fi is subjective, I don't mean biased and self-serving. I mean that it integrally understands that you as the subject are involved, and compiles the information in this light. When I say Ti is objective, I don't mean that it's unbiased and empirical. I mean that it seeks to remove the subject from consideration of the information altogether.

    In my conceptualization, the Ti perspective would hate Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, or at the very least never think of it, because it operates as if the subject weren't inherently affected by the interaction with the object, or that it would be possible to observe such an interaction without having any physical impact upon it. A leads to B because of C, separate from O's observation. The Fi perspective would say "of course, you impact your surroundings and your surroundings impact you no matter the scenario". A leads to B because of C+D, and all variables are fundamentally altered by the interaction. The interaction of A and C absent D is inherently unknowable and also not B.

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