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  1. #11
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    You could be right. It makes logical sense to me.

    Although I have read that INTPs are thought of as more stubborn than INTJs. Less willing to change their mind? Too entrenched in their own theories?
    I think it would be more natural to compare INTJs with ENTPs in this case, both with dominant intuition.

  2. #12
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    This thread is going to help me.. I'm doing a speech on this and more.





    I. Information-gathering
    The way of taking in information is either via sensing or intuiting.

    a. Sensing
    The process of taking in the sensory information in your environment without application of judgment or evaluation. Sensory information is concrete. Facts and data. The focus is on the experience itself. Sensing is a perpetual process, registering concrete realities of a situation or recollections of an experience.

    1. Extraverted Sensing
    Experiencing the immediate stimuli. Being active in the physical world, being aware of changes and opportunities, accumulating experience, noticing visible reactions, recognizing “what is”. There is no reflection, but only pure experience. Seeking excitement of the senses. Extraverted sensing is used in the here and now to explore and adapt to the physical world. Examples include eating chocolates, playing an instrument, or reading... strictly for enjoyment.

    2. Introverted Sensing
    Thinking about past experiences, recalling past impressions, accumulating data, recognizing the way things have always been. Relating the present sensory input to the past. Comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones. Noticing something doesn't taste the same as usual, being reminded of someone else by a person, associating prior feelings with am image, nostalgia or longing for the past.

    b. Intuiting
    Becoming aware of abstract information, such as symbols, patterns, meanings. An intangible knowledge of meaning, relation, or future occurrences. Comparable to a sixth sense.

    1. Extraverted Intuiting
    Interpreting situations and relationships, seeing hidden meanings and connections, being drawn to changing what is, noticing the meaning connecting multiple contexts. Being aware of the possible things you may communicate on a nonverbal level. Extraverted intuition allows for the retention of many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings at once with the understanding that they may all be true. Concepts appear among multiple here-and-now interactions. Being aware that there is always another view. Example: wondering what “the real story is” because there are often multiple sides to a story.

    2. Introverted Intuiting
    Foreseeing implications and consequences without external data. Being aware of what will be. Conceptualizing new points of view, envisioning change, getting an image of profound meaning, envisioning yourself in a certain way. Having a grip on the big picture. Realizations that come from introverted intuition have an imperative quality that demands action.

    II. Decision-making
    The process of making a rational choice based on the data received from the information-gathering function, which is sensing or intuiting.

    a. Thinking
    Thinkers prefer to make decisions from a detached point of view, using logic and reason. They abide by a set of rules, and use them to make consistent decisions. Evaluation and judgments are based on objective information. Thinkers detach from their values and make decisions based on concrete, sound principles. Analysis and cause-and-effect reasoning are processes of thinking.

    1. Extraverted Thinking
    Organizing for efficiency, applying logic, checking for consequences, setting boundaries, and deciding if something is working or not, organizing ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on involve extraverted thinking. It allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can be as efficient as possible.

    2. Introverted Thinking
    Figuring out the principles on which something operates, identifying inconsistencies, clarifying definitions for precision. Noticing the fine qualities of something, using just the right word to express something, identifying precise distinctions. Taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work.

    b. Feeling
    Feelers make decisions or evaluations based on personal or universal values to achieve harmony. The needs of the people involved are considered. “What is important?” is often considered. Ethical and moral issues are considered.

    1. Extraverted Feeling
    Meeting the needs and honoring the values of others. Adjusting to and accommodating others. Deciding if something is appropriate or acceptable in the external environment. Shoulds or shouldn'ts are considered. Considering others and responding to them appropriately. Extraverted feeling implicates social graces, such as being polite, nice, friendly, considerate, etc. Examples include selecting a gift based on what the recipient likes, keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to get along.

    2. Introverted Feeling
    Deciding if something is of worth or significance, valuing something or someone. Is expressed in the undercurrents of tone or action rather than words or gestures. Protecting one's values, detecting insincerity. Introverted feeling causes us to feel kinship with others whose values and beliefs are like our own.

  3. #13
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Just my two cents:

    Se – trusting the gut and responding with little input. Reaction mode. Best usage is in the moment and responding to what is happening now.

    Si – being prepared for the unpredictable. Plan mode. Best usage is preparing ahead of time, i.e., leaving early to have extra time, having a nest egg or something saved for a rainy day.

    Ne – welcoming the unknown. Flexible mode. Best usage is being adaptable and handling change.

    Ni – noticing and distinguishing assumptions. Interpretation mode. Best usage is being able to see through distortions created by interpretations.

    Te – seeing objects through measurable criteria. Exacting mode. Best usage is anything that requires specific and predictable measurements.

    Ti – considering things simultaneously and holistically as they occur. “In the zone” mode. Best usage is understanding basic principles from a gestalt knowing.

    Fe – seeing objects through social and cultural norms. Values mode. Best usage is in the respect of others per the existing norms, values, etc.

    Fi – considering things and how they harmonize or clash with internal values. Harmonizing mode. Best usage is appreciating that what may be good for the goose is not always good for the gander.

  4. #14
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    My take on Fe:

    Often it's a lot more what I *don't* do, as opposed to what I do do. And fine-tuning based on the individual. It's highly individualized. For example, not saying something if I know the other person is extremely opposed to my thought/opinion. Or fine-tuning my delivery or what I talk about to the specific person, based on what their interests might be, or what their interpersonal needs are. Do they like things to be more to the point? Ok, I can do that. And that means I'll 'leave out' or 'not say' a lot of other stuff I might say to a person with a very different personality. Or are they more apt to go off on tangents and speak broadly and philosophically and emotionally?? Well, I can *definitely* do that. :-) So I think it's more meeting the other person at their level of being - and in that moment in time.

    Or as a child, not rebelling against my parents because it didn't occur to me to do otherwise -- just putting their feelings ahead of my own, and valuing their needs higher than mine. Not wanting them to experience negative emotions as a result of something I did. Not wanting to cause problems. (this is just a generality -- over time there's more of a balance for me - i.e. my needs vs. the other persons -- but yeah, Fe for me tends to be putting the other persons' needs ahead of my own, whether in a simple everyday conversation, or something larger - and accommodating my delivery or expressions accordingly - because it makes me happy when other people are happy, and I want to add fuel to other peoples' joy if they're joyful, or if other people are sad, I want to explore those feelings with them to help them gain peace or clarity....just to understand them in that moment in time).

    For me it's really getting to know the other person, learning about their needs/behaviors, and adjusting my style if necessary to accommodate their needs. I don't view it as being 'fake' at all, as I'm still fully myself; this is who I am. And those I have deeper connections with will in turn see more sides of me. If I sense that they're uncomfortable and need reassurance on something that they're saying -- like if I sense they lack confidence or are hesitant to speak their mind, then I will be sure to smile and give them a verbal pat on the back, and be more encouraging in my mannerisms and responses, so that they feel safe to be open with me. But I never push people towards doing anything or saying anything -- if I sense reticence, I don't push for anything. I want people to be fully themselves and I don't want to influence them otherwise. And perhaps the Fe is more of a 'tool' that I use to connect with others because I want to create a 'safe' environment where they can be authentic and REAL. Actually as I'm typing all of this out, I think it boils down to simply validating their feelings and experiences, whatever they are, and trying to understand them.

    This might be just me...so I tend to hesitate about posting stuff like this because I don't really want to speak for everyone out there who might experience completely different things when it comes to Fe.

    Edit: I also tend to think manifestations of Fe will vary between personality types, especially between your I's and E's. For example, my Fe is going to be rather different from ESFJ's Fe, or ENFJ's Fe, or...etc.. and I'm not certain it is approached in the same matter internally, even though externally it might look the same.

    Edit2 :-): And sure, Fe is also about what's 'appropriate' in a given situation or in the group setting/culture that I'm in - but that's just the icing. All of the above is Fe on the individual level.
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  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Although I have read that INTPs are thought of as more stubborn than INTJs. Less willing to change their mind? Too entrenched in their own theories?
    It's sort of comparing apples to oranges.... INTP is stubborn in ways that INTJ is not, and vice versa.

    ? gave some very nice succinct descriptions that helped clarify my own experiences.

    And cascade, your describe of Fe was an omg moment for me, it describes what I was really doing for much of my life... and why I was so frustrated because inside I felt like a compromiser even while I did enjoy supporting people that way.

    (Lately I have been forcing people to come more onto "my turf" as part of communication, rather than me constantly going into theirs or adjusting to their frame of reference. I feel more "whole" in the process overall, but the feelings are still rather muddled.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    I don't see INTP stubbornness as a fault. I think INTPs are stubborn when it comes to others imposing their beliefs on what truth is and how to live upon them.

    In what way does INTJ stubbornness manifest?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    I don't see INTP stubbornness as a fault. I think INTPs are stubborn when it comes to others imposing their beliefs on what truth is and how to live upon them.
    Negative stubbornness:

    INTPs tend to be mule-like ... prone to sitting down in the road and digging in their heels if they at all feel manipulated or think a request is illogical. Sometimes it is a knee-jerk reaction, not a conscious and considered one.

    They also are stubborn in giving credence to people's emotional needs or values. (At best, they allow them; at worst, they stubbornly refuse to deal with anyone who seems "illogical" in their needs.)

    iow, low-key pigheadedness.

    In what way does INTJ stubbornness manifest?
    Go to INTJForums and you'll see.

    One noticeable stubborn streak is regarding their ideals: They are very loathe to give up their vision(s) and can often even try to impose them on others; they don't want to necessarily take in new information and constantly revise.

    Flaws in their vision are often projected upon others ("They're trying to undermine me!" or "These people are incompetent"). I have seen them very quickly jump to conclusions about another person's motivations, when logically the evidence is much more ambiguous.

    One thing I will point out is that people can be very aware of when they are being "stubborn" -- but they are usually being stubborn for what they perceive to be a good reason. I.e., they view it as clinging to their personal ideals, or as integrity.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    I only used "stubbornness" as a catch-all word to describe - when comparing Ni and Ne - how one is more open to adjusting its theories and one is less open to adjustment.
    At least, that's how Ben Kovitz understands Lenore Thomson. Or rather how I understand Ben Kovitz... but I'm starting to think I'm confused again.
    Intuition

    Ne -
    "To use Intuition in an Extraverted way--as a way to navigate through the world--you maintain a flexible understanding of what a sign means, which varies as more and more of that "everything" emerges. You view each interpretation of a sign as nothing more or less than a guess. You may well decide to bet a lot on that guess, but you regard it as just a guess. As more information becomes available, you change your guess."

    Ni -
    "To take an Intuitive attitude toward signs in an Introverted way--to give you an atemporal perspective on events that is not bound to any particular time or place--you attempt to discover all the possible meanings of a sign before giving it any interpretation or power to lead you in any particular direction. You continually wonder, "In what other contexts could this sign mean something different?" You discover these other contexts, and these other meanings that a sign could have, through imagination or by acquiring knowledge from other times and places (like by reading books). You refuse to jump to any conclusions about the actual context that gave rise to a sign until you've peered into that vast set of possible reasons that the sign may have appeared."

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    I think maybe so. I have read tons on the site you linked to, but it's so hard to find an essence in what's being said. Things seem to contradict each other, and I always seem to end up confused. But isn't it logical Ne is more open-ended than Ni? People with dominant or secondary Ne are Ps, people with dominant or secondary Ni are Js.
    As I understand it, the question of open-endedness depends on one's viewpoint.

    When you talk about "open-ended," you have to ask, "From whose point of view--the world's or the individual's?"

    If you look at it from the point of view of a Dominant-N person, both Ni and Ne are equally open-ended. But if you look at it from the world's point of view, then Ne is open-ended (P) and Ni is closed-ended (J).

    Breaking it down:

    1) Both Ne and Ni are always viewed as being open-ended by the individual using them.

    2) On the other hand, the outside world will see Ne-Dominant people as open-ended (P) and Ni-Dominant people as closed-ended (J). That's because Ni-Dominance is hidden from the world, so in the case of Ni-Dominant types the world only gets to see the Auxiliary F or T function (J).

    To restate the above, using examples:

    1) N is an open-ended (perceiving) function by its nature. An ENTP (Ne-Dominant) and an INTJ (Ni-Dominant) will both personally have an equal sense of open-endedness of their respective N. (In this scenario, the only difference between Ne and Ni is where they are pointed and what kind of material they like to process.)

    2) However, the quality of being a P or J is measured from the outside world's point of view. The outside world will see the ENTP (Ne-Dominant) as a Perceiver because their open-ended Ne is on display for everyone to see. By contrast, the outside world will see the INTJ (Ni-Dominant) as a Judger because their Ni is invisible to the world and the world can only see their Auxiliary Te in action for the most part. From the outside world's point of view, that makes the INTJ a J, since the INTJ is using their T (a judging function by its nature) to interact with the outside world.

    Again, that's my understanding about how these things work.

    (I believe this is why Socionics supposedly flips the J and P for Introverts. MBTI measures J and P from the world's point of view, whereas I believe Socionics tries to measure J and P according to how the dominant function is viewed by the individual.)

  10. #20
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Well, I was talking about the open-endedness in the two functions, maybe I am using the word wrong though. But a way of viewing Ne and Ni is to look at Ne as giving ever expanding results. You start out with something little and end up with something huge. Ni on the other hand is about synthesising, so you start out with a vast amount of perspectives, and from them you end up with a synthesised view. The point is, you are reaching for conclusions, which is kind of the opposite of open-endedness. :P That means Ni is >, while Ne is <. I am not saying this is my opinion, they are just some thoughts, potential views on what Ni and Ne are.

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