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Thread: Si vs Ni

  1. #21
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I know it's not just etiquette rules, but try convincing other people! But the feeling I'm getting from people is that that's basically all there is to it. I mean how do I tell people how I experience Fe? To even explain it sounds fake. I care about people. I have a very real and active concern about people I come into contact with, no matter how limited our time is together. It's real and it's happening and I care about you, right then and there and it's not forced or just being nice. It's sincere and I feel it. If it comes out as "how are you doing" then I want to know how you are doing. No, I'm not particularly picky about who gets it and if that seems fake then, I feel a little sad for people who can't experience what it feels like to actually care about a person who you've just met. I'm not saying I have feelings for them like I'm in love or something, it's just that I care about them. And yes it may be gone when I'm not around you, but the doesn't mean it's empty and it varies in levels and intensity
    Yep. I can seriously stink at etiquette rules sometimes because they seem artificial.

    The real rule is something like "This is my fellow human being." or even "This is my fellow living creature." Something like a kinship of shared existence. I don't know. The being I'm interacting with and the experience they are having has value. That value is innate and I care. I doesn't matter if I should or should not. Empathing is my default setting. I can shut it off, but it requires conscious effort to do so. People's feelings are as real to me as a scent in the air.

    I would imagine this would be even more the case for those with dominant Fe.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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    Please keep talking... I'm trying hard to understand all of this, and I very much appreciate hearing what everyone has to say.

    (There is also the idea that perhaps some of this is not really MBTI-related whatsoever? Perhaps these are simply the experiences of people who feel connected to others, regardless of type...?)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    (There is also the idea that perhaps some of this is not really MBTI-related whatsoever? Perhaps these are simply the experiences of people who feel connected to others, regardless of type...?)
    What exactly does that mean? Defining them as the experiences of people who feel connected to others doesn't help us understand them any better... or does it??

    I feel like you were trying to say something, and I missed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I asked other ENFJs this question and I hope I'll get some replies about this. I distinguish between my personal feelings and more general feelings. Usually the two overlap, but not always. Fe/Fi aren't feelings, they're functions, vehicles, or pathways. I don't consider Fe my feelings anymore than Te/Ti are thoughts. They're both modes of expressing rationality. Paired with Ni or Si gives it flavor, but I don't see how the functions are diametrically opposed.
    The way Ni/Fe can oppose in my experience (and maybe what I'm going to describe is not an opposition between those two functions, but something else entirely) is that Fe has something like a template value system like Jennifer described. It is something like the general feelings you describe, I think. It is the "should" maybe. Then there is Ni. It is constantly flipping everything around and making me see things from other angles. It is very fluid and does not give a flying flip what Fe has on it's little template. It brings in exceptions, caveats, anecdotal evidence, what I know of other cultures and how they work, you get the idea. Sometimes Fe's template and Ni's Sit'n'Spin don't mesh or worse, collide. There's never really any resting easy between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    What exactly does that mean? Defining them as the experiences of people who feel connected to others doesn't help us understand them any better... or does it??

    I feel like you were trying to say something, and I missed it.
    It could be something not related to type, but something that transcends type and functions.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yep. I can seriously stink at etiquette rules sometimes because they seem artificial.

    The real rule is something like "This is my fellow human being." or even "This is my fellow living creature." Something like a kinship of shared existence. I don't know. The being I'm interacting with and the experience they are having has value. That value is innate and I care. I doesn't matter if I should or should not. Empathing is my default setting. I can shut it off, but it requires conscious effort to do so. People's feelings are as real to me as a scent in the air.

    I would imagine this would be even more the case for those with dominant Fe.
    I agree with this. I, too, am awful at etiquette. If anything, I can be rather unconventional. I also agree that I feel other's feelings are "as real as a scent in the air". It's hard for me to turn off feeling other people's feelings so when I get to the point when all of my feelings are someone else's, I tend to shut them out. This is how I can best explain my "disappearing act" when someone is sucking the life out of me. The only way I can seperate from their feelings is to physically distance myself from them.

    I think Fe can show up differently in different types, depending on what function is working with Fe or what Fe is projecting. For an INFJ, Fe can be an outlet for Ni. For an ISFJ, Fe can be an outlet for Si. That is going to appear differently & I would imagine more in the form of "etiquette". An INFJ's "shoulds & should nots" don't really follow the conventional rules - they more follow the rules of showing how you care about other people (usually dictated by our Ni, I assume). I find my Fe takes different forms depending on the person - some people need me to physically be there, some need a gift, some need space, etc... and I can do all of these things because I intuitively pick up on the needs of others through Ni & Ni keeps me flexible in my actions.

    I've said before that if it were someone's birthday, a Fe person would find the perfect, personalized present that the person would definitely want and bake a cake with their favorite icing. It's the Si that would actually remember the birthday, though. As a Ni dominant with little use of Si, I have to log everyone's birthdays on a wall calendar because I am notorious for forgetting dates. The Fe would be acting on & celebrating not necessarily the event, but the PERSON associated with the event.

  6. #26
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quietgirl View Post
    I've said before that if it were someone's birthday, a Fe person would find the perfect, personalized present that the person would definitely want and bake a cake with their favorite icing. It's the Si that would actually remember the birthday, though...
    That was priceless.

    I can't remember occasions and don't care about them except if they have an effect on the person. I never even remember my own occasions and don't care if others forget. I'm in the same camp that struggles with etiquette. It gets me in trouble when working with groups of women who have expectations. I end up offending people by forgetting things, and then become very aware of their disappointment and feelings, feel mildly doomed, and then retreat and philosophize about how people interrelate and the role of rituals in how others find meaning, etc.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    What exactly does that mean? Defining them as the experiences of people who feel connected to others doesn't help us understand them any better... or does it??
    It means perhaps this is a flaw not of people understanding MBTI properly, but a flaw of the theory itself... because what seems lumped into Fe actually cuts across different MBTI types.

    Or perhaps the nuances PM is trying to bring to the table aren't actually part of the Fe function description... but what she is describing is more authentic in describing people.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It means perhaps this is a flaw not of people understanding MBTI properly, but a flaw of the theory itself... because what seems lumped into Fe actually cuts across different MBTI types.
    Perhaps, if what you see in the descriptions is a rule based social ettiquette program for how to be "nice" to people.

    I am not fond of the Fe descriptions I have read and find little personal resonance in them. I feel strong resonance with how other XNFJ's here have described their relationship with Fe.

    However, I also think that what I hear most non-Fe types describe as Fe does not match closely either with what I think the Fe descriptions are getting at or what I've come to understand is at least an XNFJ's experience with Fe.

    I have begun to wonder if non-Fe types often relate to Fe in a way that clinically deconstructs the social interaction process that comes naturally to Fe types and then follows that template as a sort of social rule book. I sense that then they often proceed to project their disengaged experience back outward assuming that Fe types experience is the same as theirs. My sense based on how I experience Fe and how I've seen others describe their experience with Fe is that it is not the same at all.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  9. #29
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It means perhaps this is a flaw not of people understanding MBTI properly, but a flaw of the theory itself... because what seems lumped into Fe actually cuts across different MBTI types.
    Ah, yes. Now this I understand. I have wondered about that myself. Fe seems to have two kinds of implied definitions. One is simply displaying one's emotion openly and expecting a response, and the other is simply adhering to social rules or paying attention to other's emotional states. It could be an important difference between dominant and auxiliary Fe, or else could be the subtle work of a psychological process separate from what we call "Fe" that impacts it's expression, such as Rationality/Irrationality, Limbic/Calm, Egocentric/Agreeable, etc. (Just listing a few things that are measured in other personality systems.)

    Or perhaps the nuances PM is trying to bring to the table aren't actually part of the Fe function description... but what she is describing is more authentic in describing people.
    Well, if they're part of something else, then we should probably try to figure out what. I don't have any reason to believe that she was mistaken about what she perceived, or that the theory already encompasses every major aspect of psychological nuance.

  10. #30
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yep. I can seriously stink at etiquette rules sometimes because they seem artificial.

    The real rule is something like "This is my fellow human being." or even "This is my fellow living creature." Something like a kinship of shared existence. I don't know. The being I'm interacting with and the experience they are having has value. That value is innate and I care. I doesn't matter if I should or should not. Empathing is my default setting. I can shut it off, but it requires conscious effort to do so. People's feelings are as real to me as a scent in the air.

    I would imagine this would be even more the case for those with dominant Fe.
    Yes! By default I don't shut off/out other people's feelings. In fact, it is an effort for me to stop thinking "this person might feel/feels X." I have to tell myself, you don't care and then proceed to not caring. The downside of this is that sometimes I give people emotions that they're not feeling at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    Perhaps, if what you see in the descriptions is a rule based social ettiquette program for how to be "nice" to people.

    I am not fond of the Fe descriptions I have read and find little personal resonance in them. I feel strong resonance with how other XNFJ's here have described their relationship with Fe.

    However, I also think that what I hear most non-Fe types describe as Fe does not match closely either with what I think the Fe descriptions are getting at or what I've come to understand is at least an XNFJ's experience with Fe.

    I have begun to wonder if non-Fe types often relate to Fe in a way that clinically deconstructs the social interaction process that comes naturally to Fe types and then follows that template as a sort of social rule book. I sense that then they often proceed to project their disengaged experience back outward assuming that Fe types experience is the same as theirs. My sense based on how I experience Fe and how I've seen others describe their experience with Fe is that it is not the same at all.
    Double yes! And then what makes it annoying is that people tell you how you experience Fe, like you're just an automaton that just doles out smiles and irrevelant cheer, regardless of how the person actually feels. You will be happy because I decree it. I HATE most Fe descriptions, which is why I disregard them because they all seem to stress adherence to external standards and values and gratuitous emoting as Fe. They're soulless and cold and I don't like them.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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