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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I tend to see Fi as being strongly attached to emotional and memory associations. The following post is highly speculative (i.e. my own personal theorizing), but it might help others get some insight into how Fi works or come up with their own theories about Fi. But take it with a grain of salt.

    Just about everyone has experienced flashes of old memories associated with a certain smell or flavor. Let's say I lived at the beach in my childhood but later moved to the mountains. When I finally return to the beach decades later for the first time since childhood, my first exposure to the odor of the salt air will almost certainly bring back a flood of long-forgotten childhood memories.
    This sounds more like Si than Fi.



    Thus, let's say I'm walking around an empty museum and I listen to the echoing clatter of my steps, and I get a sense that I've heard that sound before sometime in the past. If I keep listening, I may even get a sense of foreboding and dreariness from the sound (i.e., emotional content appears). If I want to pursue the sensation further, I may keep walking and listening, speeding up and slowing down my steps, repeating the sounds and rhythm that seem to have the most "resonance," until I suddenly remember walking down an empty hospital corridor as a child, ill with some sickness and not really paying attention to my surroundings, but also vaguely dreading the unknown treatment that awaits me at the end of the corridor.
    Again, sounds more like Si than Fi. Fi is more about reviewing and refining our own personal beliefs and values about the information we take in. Si is more about linking sensations with previous memories, emotions and impressions.



    From the Si description I linked to: ...Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience...

    FineLine says: On the other hand, using associations and memories is a fast and efficient way of analyzing and making decisions. It's how people get a "gut feeling" about something. If a certain experience has repeatedly left you with a bad feeling over time, then to a certain extent one can use that "bad feeling" as quick input for judging how best to react to a situation as it arises.
    In my experience gut feelings come through intuition instead analyzing and it comes without thought, just is there. It is when I analyze the gut feelings that the gut feelings become less clear and sure and muddied up with emotions, fears or desires.

    A good way for me to tell the difference between Si based fears and a true gut feeling coming through intution is that the gut feeling comes loud and dramatic with lots of rationalizations to back it up. There is a manic, panic feeling to the fear feelings that are based on Si. The true gut feelings come more quiet and sure, calm. They don't come with any rationalization attached to them. I can accept it or reject it without it presenting me with any case pleadings from my emotions or thoughts.

    FineLine says: But obviously INFPs should also realize the fallibility of "gut feelings," especially ones that go all the way back to childhood.
    I agree about fears, not about true gut feelings. Whenever I have ignored a true gut feeling, I deeply regretted it.


    FineLine says: Thinkers usually at least register the existence of strong emotions (disgust, hate, love) and probably register the rare flood of memories associated with a certain taste or smell. But they will probably dismiss outright the weaker emotional associations attached to touch, hearing, and sight. Fi people can dismiss them just as effectively. An Fi person may simply be too busy or occupied to pursue a weak emotional association that pops up while walking down the street; or, having pursued the association, he may determine that a childish memory or emotion that was dredged up is too old and simplistic to be of any use and dismiss the whole thing.

    But much as Thinkers like to analyze for the sake of analyzing, Fi people may dabble in old emotional associations for fun. Particularly ancient and vague emotional cues can be fun to unravel as mental exercise; and for the connoisseur, old emotions can come in a variety of "flavors." The recovery of an old childhood memory can yield a sense of surprise and nostalgia.

    Some Fi people may not bother to chase down old memories and may simply enjoy the interplay of emotions at the back of their consciousness when experiencing a particularly rich environment (one that has a lot of sensual cues to trigger associations). For many Fis, the emotions are the more interesting part; by comparison, the memories may involve work and may be much less interesting. When Park describes listening to music, I think she is describing an experience of enjoying the emotions triggered by the music without going into the past to determine what specific past experiences linked those emotions to those tones or percussion or style of music. (That's a perfectly acceptable use of Fi.)
    I still see this more as a function of Si, not Fi.

    FineLine says: Furthermore, as they get adept at playing with emotional cues, Fi people can play around with the external emotional cues of others (body language, vocal cues, choices of words) or even extrapolate themselves into the emotional crises of others in order to see how they themselves would handle the situation.
    Some of this is Se, which is something that INFP do need to work on developing but some say it is a shadow function for them and that they need to be aware that they can be "tricked" into thinking they have a greater grasp on things like Se than they actually do and so I would think that it would be better for the INFP and others who have Se as part of their shadow functions to always be aware of this. Some have said can be fooled into thinking they have more Se than they do.

    FineLine says: Also, becoming adept with emotions obviously gives Feelers an edge in communication skills. By ignoring emotional cues, Thinkers clearly put themselves at a disadvantage in that area.
    I am not sure I agree with this. An mature INTP with a more developed Fe may very well have a better advantage over an INFP with a well developed Fi and Si the area of communications skills.


    .FineLine says:..INFPs probably can't enunciate what they hope to achieve with these emotional experiences; with no justification for their quest, they can take on the appearance and even the habits of emotional junkies. But given the nature of Intuition, I suspect INFPs would ideally like to understand where their fears and emotions first arose and then weave these emotional scraps and understandings into a kind of childhood emotional safety blanket. INFPs often hearken back to an idealized infancy of peace, tranquility and acceptance: a kind of pre-individuation personal Garden of Eden. INFPs often talk of a feeling of "innocence lost" and a quest to return to simpler times and merge themselves back into a larger, more comprehensive consciousness. Emotional associations seem to be the path for them.
    I don't believe there is a idealized place like you describe to be found here on earth to run away from truth to. The only way we can create a better world is through working on our own selves as individuals no matter what our 'type' happens to be. We cannot hide from our own shadows and seek some sort of security blanket because to do so abdicates our responsibility as sentient beings and is the biggest reason the world is so messed up today.

    As humans if we want to see where our problems come from, we need only look in the mirror, one by one, by abdicating this responsibility to seek our true inner selves we have given permission for the basest desires of the mass collective human ego to become manifest in the world. The more we run from this, the more we give our consent to this.

    I have worked hard to understand where my emotions have come from, how my childhood has affected me. The truth of it provided no warm fuzzy security for me, only learning to built a new foundation for own self has done that. I do not remember a time of an idealized Garden of Eden that I want to return to, instead I was forced to knock down many fantasy bonds I had been holding up. Much of this was done during my 20s. It is interesting to read that is the time when Si comes on very strong for the INFP and this hunger to review and transmute the old emotional experiences comes to a head.

    My goal in my life now is to seek out my shadow traits, my egotism, any false ideas, unhealthy cultural conditioning and transmute them into something better. I want to find truth and I want to become a person who can accept truth for what it is and face it.

    What good is a security blanket if it is fake?

    I tend to think the most common pitfall the INFP can get into is what was described in this article: moreso than the wanting to run to a cozy cocoon. I think the reason is that the INFP mistakenly believes the fastest way to make a difference in the world is by trying to convince others. The INFP soon comes up against the brick wall of the rest of the world in doing so and ends up feeling like a failure and hating the world for being brutal and uncaring.

    The only way to change the world is to start first with ourselves, no matter our type and then to take what we learn about ourselves out in the world as example and inspiration to others. It is better to find kindred spirits and work to change a small part of the world than try to convert masses of people not ready for change to a more like minded way of seeing things.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    This sounds more like Si than Fi.
    I said "Fi as being strongly attached to emotional and memory associations." Not identical. Perhaps I should have been clearer.

    In other words, what I described in my earlier post is the input of information for Fi--the gathering of emotional content. I kind of glossed over the process of ranking and valuing of the emotional content once it's inside. To me that's less important than examining the sort of raw content that Fi sees as important in the first place and how it intakes that content (what sources it uses and values).

    As for the workings of Fi itself and the prioritizing of data once it's inside, I think you can judge that by the person. For example, you can judge how an individual's Fi is prioritizing emotional content by seeing whether the individual dwells on traumas or slights, or whether the individual sees the world as basically a fair place (if unforgiving at times), and so on.

    As for whether it has anything to do with Si, see below.

    From the Si description I linked to: ...Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience...
    But then that same passage about Si that you quoted continues on to give the example of comparing the saltiness of a present meal as compared to a past one. IOW, the context for Si would seem to be purely sensual hard data.

    In my post, I made clear that the emotional experience is the thing the INFP wants. The memory/experience of the event as inputted by the five senses is of secondary importance compared to the emotions that resulted from the experience. Si would have no interest in the emotional content.

    Obviously, initial experiences are going to be registered through the five senses. And the five senses are one path by which memories can be retrieved. But as I tried to point out in the post, INFPs are mostly interested in re-experiencing and extracting the emotional content for Fi purposes. Emotional content is way outside of the domain of Si.

    [...more of the same...]

    I just want to clarify: I put this together based on my own experiences, my personal experiences of other INFPs, and what I've seen on INFP-GC. In the case of INFP-GC (since it can be examined by everyone), I think one has to account for the atmosphere of giddiness, the tortured fascination with childhood experiences and traumas, the repeated assertions that childhood is somehow a "wiser" state than adulthood, the navel-gazing, the mysticism, etc.

    I can't simply ignore all those things and agree that Fi and its content simply come out of nowhere. Fi accepts inputs from the world around it, and somehow all those other things visible at INFP-GC have to be accounted for as well.

    What good is a security blanket if it is fake?
    Exactly my point. Hence the comments about navel-gazing and solipsism. INFPs who measure the world by childhood traumas and disappointments (or childish visions of paradise on earth) aren't going to be well-equipped for dealing with reality.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post


    But then that same passage about Si that you quoted continues on to give the example of comparing the saltiness of a present meal as compared to a past one. IOW, the context for Si would seem to be purely sensual hard data.
    You were describing using the clicking of heels in a hall way to bring back the emotions you experienced as a child. That is directly in line with Si as described here:

    From the Si description I linked to: ...Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience..

    The same could be said for listening to a certain song that brings back strong memories of feelings. A fragrance..etc.
    Last edited by heart; 08-28-2007 at 04:19 AM. Reason: It is probably best not to talk about other boards here.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    You were describing using the clicking of heels in a hall way to bring back the emotions you experienced as a child. That is directly in line with Si as described here:

    From the Si description I linked to: ...Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience..

    The same could be said for listening to a certain song that brings back strong memories of feelings.
    Again, there are two separate processes there: 1) retrieving the memory (i.e. a sensual impression is utilized to track down and retrieve a sensual memory); and 2) extracting the emotional content linked with that memory for further Fi use, while discarding the sensual memory.

    Step 1 is just the mere mechanics of memory retrieval and has nothing to do with inputting information for future use. Step 2, on the other hand, is all about Fi.

    As I said in my last post:

    Obviously, initial experiences are going to be registered through the five senses. And the five senses are one path by which memories can be retrieved. But as I tried to point out in the post, INFPs are mostly interested in re-experiencing and extracting the emotional content for Fi purposes. Emotional content is way outside of the domain of Si.

    Oh well. Bedtime for me. Good discussion, though. Whether you agree or disagree, I appreciate your pointing out the places where I wasn't getting my point across so I could take another shot at clarifying.
    Last edited by RDF; 08-28-2007 at 04:21 AM. Reason: Edit to match your edit!

  5. #35
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    Thank you FineLine.


    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Again, there are two separate processes there: 1) retrieving the memory (i.e. a sensual impression is utilized to track down and retrieve a sensual memory); and 2) extracting the emotional content linked with that memory for further Fi use, while discarding the sensual memory.
    I guess I cannot really relate to the using of sensation to draw up memories.

    I do know someone who gets STRONG Si from smells and also music or other sounds. He gets vivid flashbacks to the feelings of being in the situations where we was when he heard the song or smelled the smell. It can be overwhelming to him.


    Events happening or things said have always been what have triggered my memories of less happy times. Once my memories are triggered, I usually have tried to analyze what happened, who said what, who did what, how did I act that might have brought the event on myself, how did some one else react that might have led me to act as I did, how did I react that made the situation either worse or better, how have people responded as a pattern to me, how have I responded in a pattern to them.

    After I have reviewed everything in this fashion, I then spend a lot of time thinking how this fits into my belief system and what can I learn about myself and human nature from it and apply to future situations and how I can improve my life going forwards.

    Listening to music really doesn't bring that many memories of the past but instead spontaneous images and visions of what could be, what I can strive for and creates strong emotions of an inspirational nature. I often get very strong epiphanies about the problems in my life or a better way to approach life in general, answers to nagging questions from and a feeling of emotional cleansing and renewal from music...or I get images of stories of other people that I do not know, like fictions in my mind, like vivid dreams but I am awake.
    Last edited by heart; 08-28-2007 at 04:46 AM. Reason: Spelling..

  6. #36
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    Already done!

    Have a good night!

  7. #37
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    Thanks.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post

    I do know someone who gets STRONG Si from smells and also music or other sounds. He gets vivid flashbacks to the feelings of being in the situations where we was when he heard the song or smelled the smell. It can be overwhelming to him.
    I get that actually, certain smells, or touch sensations can trigger an old memory, always a fond one, not even really a memory so to speak of something, more like a remembered feeling.

    I could be walking down the road on a sunny day, and a smell from a cafe will trigger memories of holiday time in morocco and the same smell. Will bring back the happiness, very poignant moments for me when it happens.

    A song may remind me of stupid teenage angst that I once suffered, or bring back a memory of still being under the control of my ex because it was a song I listened to then.

    it doesn't bring back memories, just feelings I associate with memories, is that what you mean?

    It's not bothersome in anyway as it is very rare, so when I feel it, I enjoy it, a reminder of what once was, and what is.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  9. #39
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    (BTW, Ti keeps cheese in his pockets because he thinks Empress Fe is a little snobby and he knows that she prefers the calming aroma of lavender so that way she'll stay the hell away from him).
    That cracked me up. It reminds me of Weird Al's video to his song "Fat" where the dude just pulls out a slice of pizza from his jacket... haha

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