Guilty Verdict for Young Woman Who Urged Friend to Kill Himself

[Norrsken]

The fact that she told him to get back in the vehicle after his supposed change of heart and wanting to live is the part where I no longer feel sorry for her. Her youth and her emotional instability aside, that was the part where she could have chosen to do something different.. and she didn't. While I disagree that words are legal forms of murder weapons, the fact that she seduced his already fragile state of mind that death will solve all of his issues without thinking things through is just horrid for me to even conceive inside my mind. I am so sorry that he was suffering, and while suicide is a personal choice that shouldn't be looked down upon without understanding the root issues of why it happens, it shouldn't have been up to her to do what she did.

 

[SurrealisticSlumbers]

Is Ms. Carter a sociopath? In what universe does a "friend" try to get another to take their life??? Hope she spends a few years in there to teach her a lesson.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

The published text messages: Here are the text messsages of Michelle Carter convincing her boyfriend to commit suicide
It cuts off where he exits the truck and they speak by telephone and she tells him to get back in.

She is using well established, calculating manipulation tactics. The obsessive repetition of "just do it" and occasional guilt tripping. She sounds like she is on a major control trip.

 

[Atomic Fiend]

The published text messages: Here are the text messsages of Michelle Carter convincing her boyfriend to commit suicide
It cuts off where he exits the truck and they speak by telephone and she tells him to get back in.

Yeah, that's not as ambigious as it was made to be. If he was on the fence before her, then she is without any doubt in my mind what actually made him go through with it. That goes beyond ignorance of any kind. That is murder.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Here are a couple of especially telling statements

"I thought you were actually gonna do this but now you've just made me feel played and just stupid."

And the most telling,

"Did you delete the messages?"

Demonstrating comprehension that there could be negative ramifications for herself if she got caught.

 

[Tomb1]

Big picture, I see them as joint venturers. Although she was clearly the mastermind, he was not a mindless zombie. Let's say two people venture to rob a bank. One is the mastermind. The other does the robbery. The bank robber then produces text messages showing that the mastermind guilted him into following through on the act. That only proves the mastermind's involvement but does not undermine the robber's willingness to participate. He was manipulated. Okay. She coached and manipulated him through his hesitations as is typical in joint ventures where you have one person who is stronger-willed. In contrast to robbing banks, though, suicide is not a crime in the United States. Therefore, no crime can be imputed to her imo.

However, the law has gotten around that by fitting these situations into an involuntary manslaughter crime. It's a tortured argument.

 

[BlackCat]

.
Don't know all the facts of the case but at this point, I'm wondering the reasoning behind the decision to forego a jury trial.

I agree with this point. Seems like the perfect case for a jury.

I do agree that a punishment was in order for this case. When people are suicidal, their minds are very fragile, and self destructive. Any kind of stimuli pointing them towards their call of the void will most likely impact them in kind. So I think she did have a part in making him end his life.

I have read some of the text messages exchanged between the two of them. She was highly abusive, and is a piece of shit that deserves punishment. It was straight up bullying. I hope she rots in a cell until she is 40 years old. Saying that she was not abusive would be delusional. He probably was enduring a lot in his personal life and really needed someone that cared, and instead she does that.

 

[Jaguar]

I agree with this point. Seems like the perfect case for a jury.

I do agree that a punishment was in order for this case. When people are suicidal, their minds are very fragile, and self destructive. Any kind of stimuli pointing them towards their call of the void will most likely impact them in kind. So I think she did have a part in making him end his life.

I have read some of the text messages exchanged between the two of them. She was highly abusive, and is a piece of shit that deserves punishment. It was straight up bullying. I hope she rots in a cell until she is 40 years old. Saying that she was not abusive would be delusional. He probably was enduring a lot in his personal life and really needed someone that cared, and instead she does that.

I don't think either one of them had mental soundness.

 

[cascadeco]

I've been thinking of the 'mental soundness' concept recently, as it ties to incarceration. It seems to me one could argue that many people who commit a crime, whether it be murder, theft, rape, assault, any number of things - aren't 'mentally sound'. Something or other is a bit off-kilter, deviant, narcissistic, obsessive compulsive, sociopathy/psychopathy, any number of possibilities. At the very least, their moral code can be called into question. I mean, let's say someone commits rape but is technically 'mentally unsound' - perhaps they can be diagnosed with one or more mental illnesses that affect their judgment and therefore treatment towards other human beings. I'd still want them to be taken out of the public arena, so that they couldn't harm any other fellow humans. So even if the girl in this case had her own issues with depression or other challenges, I think that she deserves to take ownership and responsibility of the choices she made, and I'm not opposed to her being imprisoned. I don't have any opinion on the length of term, whether it's justified or not, but I do feel pretty strongly about there being consequences to ones actions.

 

[BlackCat]

I don't think either one of them had mental soundness.

Fair point. My post comes from personal experiences and values, hence the tone. Perhaps she should have plead some sort of insanity (not sure if there is a lesser thing you can plead to other than insanity in cases like this).

 

[Edgar]

I'm inclined to agree, from what I know about the case so far. She is an attractive girl, and beautiful women are sometimes seen as dangerous to society in a way that ordinary-looking people can not be. Possibly this led to her being overcharged. Maybe.

Quite the contrary. A lot of research shows that attractive people are seen as more trustworthy and intelligent by others, and there are many cases where attractive women specifically get a very lenient sentence. If anything, her defense attorney made a blunder waiving her right to a jury. Her story about being messed on the drugs herself probably would have had more sway over laymen jurors than a salty judge. The defense attorney didn't count on the judge expanding the scope of law like that.
[MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION] the answer to your question is included

 

[Krys]

I've been following this case from afar for some time now and while I am surprised by the degree of punishment (up to 20 years is a hefty amount of jailtime), overall I do think that she was guilty of helping him commit suicide and should be punished. Here are my reasons why:

1) she was aware that what she was doing was wrong. She asked whether the texts were deleted. she was worried about when the police looked at his phone because the texts incriminate her as an accessory, which is exactly what happened.

In a text to Boardman, she wrote, “Sam, [the police] read my messages with him I'm done. His family will hate me and I can go to jail.”

(buzzfeed news)

2) she used his death to gain sympathy. Not a crime, but this can be intimated as another reason she "aided" his suicide --she knew she'd gain sympathy from it. This is important because it shows that she wasn't just "helping" him as an act of friendship.

"I'm so fucking stupid," she told Boardman after informing her of Roy's death. "The generator he got the other day, I think that was the noise I heard...I think he poisoned himself with it and its all my fault because I should of knew he was gonna do that and I should of stopped him."

Evidence shows Carter and Roy exchanged several text messages and had two phone calls the night he died.

“He told me exactly what his plan was,” Carter told another friend. “And he told me he loved me. And then he just stopped talking.”

“Yeah and I was on the phone talking to him when he killed himself. I heard him dying," she texted another friend.

“I was talking to him on the phone when he killed himself. Liv, I heard him die. I just wish I got him more help,” she texted yet another.

(from buzzfeed news)

3) she wasn't just advising suicide as an option (which is still fucked up, but that's whole other thing) she was *pushing* him to do it. When he began doubting his decision, she urged him to go through with it. At one point she even told him to get back into the truck when he tried to leave because of the fumes. That is an entirely different thing from some asshat on the internet tell you to kill yourself.

Defendant: "You're gonna have to prove me wrong because I just don't think you really want this. You just keeps pushing it off to another night and say you'll do it but you never do"
Defendant: "SEE THATÂ’S WHAT I MEAN. YOU KEEP PUSHING IT OFF! You just said you were gonna do it tonight and now you're saying eventually...
Defendant: "But I bet you're gonna be like 'oh, it didn't work because I didn't tape the tube right or something like that' ... I bet you're gonna say an excuse like that"
Defendant: "Do you have the generator?"
Victim: "not yet lol"
Defendant: "WELL WHEN ARE YOU GETTING IT"

(from NYT)


I don't view the act of commiting suicide a crime, but I do think actively, personally encouraging another person to end their own life is if they wouldn't have commited suicide otherwise --and there should be ramifications for that. This presents, however grimly, an opportunity to discuss the limitations and moral grays of free speech. I'm not against free speech, but clearly the idea that we can say whatever we want without consequence is changing. So where do we go from here?

 

[Jaguar]

20-year-old who repeatedly urged friend to kill himself sentenced to 2.5 years in prison

"I have not found that Ms. Carter's age or level of maturity or even her mental illness have any significant impact on her actions," Moniz said at Carter's sentencing.

Interesting. In a perverse way.

 

[rav3n]

It's a valid ruling premised on the legal definition of involuntary manslaughter.

Involuntary Manslaughter Overview

Involuntary manslaughter usually refers to an unintentional killing that results from recklessness or criminal negligence, or from an unlawful act that is a misdemeanor or low-level felony (such as a DUI). The usual distinction from voluntary manslaughter is that involuntary manslaughter (sometimes called "criminally negligent homicide") is a crime in which the victim's death is unintended.

Involuntary Manslaughter Overview - FindLaw

 

[Tellenbach]

It's a mistake to let the government criminalize speech, even stupid and offensive speech. This is an attempt to curb jerkish behavior and the government will inevitably abuse this power in the future. What if someone tells Kim Jong Eun to go jump off a bridge or commit hari-kari; is that going to be illegal now?

 

[Rasofy]

meh, incitation to suicide isn't manslaughter

just like abortion isn't

there should be a specific crime type for that

otherwise... no crime

 

[ceecee]

Someone was held responsible for the shit that came out of their mouth. What a concept! Of course this is about free speech. She was free to speak and encourage a suicide. She was free to say anything she wanted to anyone she wanted. Now she is finding out that free speech also has consequences. 15 months when she could have gotten 20 years? Nope, I don't have a speck of sympathy for her.

 

[highlander]

I am simply reminded of one of my best friends from college who took his life in the same way around five years ago and wishing I could have known to do something that could have helped or prevented it.

 

[Jaguar]

Of course this is about free speech.

To you.

 

[Frosty]

I think that yeah- she should he held responsible. Should she go to jail for the rest of her life- no. But she took someone, when they were at their lowest, and pushed them down instead of helping them up when they needed help the most. It was deliberate and it was cruel. Sure, your age has an impact- but- this isnt telling someone they are a jerk or something when you are mad at them- this in my opinion speaks to a deep character problem. A WANTING to hurt someone. And to hurt someone that bad, deliberately- there SHOULD be consequences.

I think 15 months is fine. I hope she can get the help she needs or at least understand the gravity of what she contributed to. And so she never does something like that again.

The 'I dont think you want to do it' is what really... thats what really nails it down for me. She doesnt really think this is whar he wants. She knows that he probably- really wants to live- but shes trying to force this choice on him and knows she can because hes in a weak position. Its manipulation pure and simple.